"Shine" dissing Beethoven

[fiasco]

So I'm watching "Shine" the other day, and I've noticed that the fimmakers seem not to think much of Beethoven's piano works.  Throughout the movie it's all Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, hey look at Liszt's death mask, wow, Sergei sure had some magnificant hands, and sure, Liszt is the piano King and we all know Rachmaninoff's 3rd is the old standby "hardest piece ever" when obviously there's a whole slew of more difficult pieces out there (maybe Rach's 3rd is the most difficult good piece, not just written for difficulty's sake like some Sorabji, etc...) but what really bothered me (besides, from what I remember, not a lick of Chopin) is towards the ending...  David's collegue, the goofy guy, I can't remember his name, but he's obviously cast to be inferior to David, and at the end he plays Beethoven's Appassionata, and when he finishes, he thrusts his fists in the air and smirks looks like a total jerk.  This is during David's recovery, and David is in the audience and applauds enthusiastically and all, because he's such a great guy, but the message is that Beethoven is for novices and goofy fist-thrusters while the mighty Rach 3 and La Campanella is for tragic geniuses and anyone who can play Liszt would never condescend to perform a mere Beethoven sonata.  Now, I don't know how well the director or screenwriter can bang out the Appassionata, but I've tried, and it ain't easy.  And composing such a piece is another matter altogether.  While going deaf, too.  Do you feel that Beethoven is seen as not as substantial against the Romantics?    Like, Liszt adored Beethoven, but those who play Liszt look at Beethoven as a few steps down?  And, isn't it the point to write great music that isn't impossible to play, to get across as much feeling as possible with as little BS as possible?  What good is the OC if no one can play it correctly?  It seems like so many people are only interested in playing "hard" pieces, with all the threads here on what is the hardest piece, the hardest etude, etc... without giving the respect due to some of the easier pieces that are more profound?  Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.  Sorry if I'm rambling, but that "Shine" thing has been irking me.

[Ruro]

What good is the OC if no one can play it correctly?

I won't say anything, cause I don't fancy arguing you, neither do I want to flame or be flamed... but this quote alone.... your really asking for it!

*Whispers* Quickly, edit your post!

And... you say Beethoven isn't considered highly, I was thinking perhaps like nowadays with your Rock Bands and Pop Bands... Rachmaninoff and Liszt were like... the Icons of that century, and Beethoven was like... "So last year!" ^_^;;

But what do I know...

[rob47]

Well, I havent seen that movie for a while....but I don't think it was about music, it was about a young mans struggle to something something his father etc etc and he finally goes to school and i dont rememebr.

Beethoven is awesome, and probably more familiar to non-musicians so it is an odd ommision on the director/writers part.

[fiasco]

Hmmm.... not looking to argue of course, but I'll stand by my statement about the OC.  It's cool to wonder over and ogle it's seven staves and marvel at how some can get at an approximation of it, but in the end, the Moonlight sonata packs a bigger emotional punch.  It's like this motorcycle I saw on TV... Chrysler made a concept bike that's basically a 12 cylinder Viper engine with a motorcycle frame wrapped around it, and the guy's saying "Well, we think it goes about 350 mph, but nobody can try it because they'll just fly off."  I don't know, maybe Sorabji can hang on.  Or, Finnegans Wake.  I've spent precious hours deciphering this thing, to what end?  A drunken Bukowski rant says more in two lines.  The OC, it seems, to me, is like a Rube Goldberg invention.  A helluva long way to go for the payoff one gets.  Just my opinion, and I have the utmost respect for those who can play his pieces, I'd just rather study music by compsers who might encourage me to do so.

[bernhard]

  A drunken Bukowski rant says more in two lines. 

Bukowski, yeah!

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,3296.msg29058.html#msg29058

[Jacey1973]

You have a good argument. I've never really thought of Shine portraying Beethoven like that before. And i agree - the 1st thing i noticed about piano forum is the amount of discussions there are on "the most difficult pieces" etc - which are usually by Liszt/Rachmaninov/Chopin, although there are some Beethoven lovers out there (including me!)

I remember what my piano teacher said to me in the 1st year (he retired the year after) he said when he was young (like in his late teens, early 20s) all he was interested in was the big, dramatic pieces - like the Rachmaninov piano concertos but he said as he got older and especially now (he's in his 50s/60s i think) he began to appreciate "simpler" sounding music - like Mozart (not that i'm implying Mozart is simple at all though!) he said i will probably experience the same thing. 3 years on i feel i'm beginning to move in that direction, mainly because perhaps i have heard the big, dramatic, romantic popular works too many times.

[BoliverAllmon]

You have a good argument. I've never really thought of Shine portraying Beethoven like that before. And i agree - the 1st thing i noticed about piano forum is the amount of discussions there are on "the most difficult pieces" etc - which are usually by Liszt/Rachmaninov/Chopin, although there are some Beethoven lovers out there (including me!)

I remember what my piano teacher said to me in the 1st year (he retired the year after) he said when he was young (like in his late teens, early 20s) all he was interested in was the big, dramatic pieces - like the Rachmaninov piano concertos but he said as he got older and especially now (he's in his 50s/60s i think) he began to appreciate "simpler" sounding music - like Mozart (not that i'm implying Mozart is simple at all though!) he said i will probably experience the same thing. 3 years on i feel i'm beginning to move in that direction, mainly because perhaps i have heard the big, dramatic, romantic popular works too many times.

i think we all go through stages like that. we can only hear Rach 3rd so many times before we want to hear something else.

[mcgillcomposer]

Hey fiasco,

I think the movie was about a man's sturggle more than about the music.  However, you make a really good point about "hard" repertoire.  I mentioned in an earlier post that I would much rather play Grieg's E minor sonata than either of the Rachmaninoff sonatas.  Don't get me wrong...all three are fantastic, but there is something quite special about the subtleness of the Grieg.  Of course there are many other examples...and I am sure counter-examples.

Anyway, just my two cents worth.

[steve jones]

I think he is quite right, Beethoven was crap.




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[Etude]

Hmmm.... not looking to argue of course, but I'll stand by my statement about the OC.  It's cool to wonder over and ogle it's seven staves

..........have you even seen the score?

[Etude]

main piano music in Shine:  A two minute version of Rach 3,  La Campanella, Un Sospiro, Heroic Polonaise...

Have I missed anything?

[bachelssohn]

I whole heartedly agree with the original poster, but let's face it, for non-musicians (and some "musicians"), piano comes off as much as an athletic feat as it does is art. As you can see by some of the topics on this forum, many people do obsess over technique, and difficulty of pieces, which I think is unfortunate. I'm not saying that a piece being very difficult means it's bad, I just wish people would see more than that in the music.

[Teddybear]

They did have Schubert. :/

[prometheus]

Is this a hidden attack on Sorabji? Must be.

Someone lock this topic.

[Dazzer]

don't forget teh rach 3 got beaten by the schumann.

i think you're just reading too much into the movie... its a movie, get over it.

[BoliverAllmon]

I think he is quite right, Beethoven was crap.




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oh yeah that's right (WRONG)

[Etude]

Is this a hidden attack on Sorabji? Must be.

Someone lock this topic.

hahaha, maybe.