Chang, chord attack and parallel set exercises...

[rachmaninova]

Hi, o great god(esse)s of the piano!

I'm quite a newbie on this forum, and I need some help...
I started a few days ago reading Chang's book, which seems very understandable but my english isn't very good and I didn't understand chord attack and parallel sets. Well, at least I'm not very sure of the translation to my language (portuguese) and unfortunately we use very few english terms in Portugal.
Could someone give me a clue or, at least, give me some links to topics where these items were discussed?

Carla

[xvimbi]

Here is a good link that'll get you started: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?action=search

[rachmaninova]

Sorry, I never thought I would disturb you so much... 
Obviously I tried already the search menu, and an still reading those threads. But the problem is that the search doesn't prevent me from opening threads / topics / messages that only mention the terms occasionaly (or not so occasionaly) and don't explain them...
Fortunately, I'm strong-minded and I'll still keep looking...

[leahcim]

You won't find much in Portugese with the search unfortunately.

The basic idea is playing a group of notes together as a chord and then slowing that down by rolling the chord so that you play the individual notes of the passage by slowing down, instead of playing them slowly to begin and speeding up, like the more traditional approaches to practise.

A parallel set is just his own phrase for a group of notes that can be practised in that way.

I think you'll have a hard time, because the things he writes e.g "Thumb over" "Parallel sets" and others don't have much meaning in literal English either and the explanations are loose and easily misinterpreted even if you've spoken English for decades.

From the technique pov, the material is elsewhere - mebbe a book has been translated into Portugese? [people like Fink, Bernstein etc]  - but the technique stuff makes no sense when written, whatever language you use He's started adding videos though, although there were fingers lifting all over the place in it afaict, contrary to what I understood, so I'm not sure it didn't confuse me even more.

From the practise pov, that's really where his book is worth reading, just search through Bernhard's posts, some of it is there, but it's all in English, I dunno how much it will help - but you might not find some of the material elsewhere.

[xvimbi]

So, then you probably came across these threads. What is it exactly that is unclear?



https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2366.0.html
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,6141.0.html
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4997.0.html
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4164.0.html
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7421.0.html

[rachmaninova]

Thank you Leahcim!

I am in fact learning so much from Bernhard and other folks' posts! That's why I called you the gods (goddesses) of the piano! 
There are no books translated to portuguese (perhaps I'll find something in brazilian portuguese, just don't know where to search), but I found Neuhaus in spanish (very easy to read), and there are others in french (which is more closer to portuguese than english). I have Gat's book too, but the language is very technical (despite the enormous amont of pics), so I need to be more acquainted to piano's english vocabulary...
You focused the true problem with the translations: some expressions translated by literal english don't have meaning in my language. I probably know this techniques, but I can't relate them with what you name them (oops... I'm not very good at phrase building!).

Anyway, I truly thank you! 

[rachmaninova]

So, then you probably came across these threads. What is it exactly that is unclear?



https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2366.0.html --> The problems of who tries to use parallel sets (but no definition of what it consists)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,6141.0.html --> This one finally describes parallel sets (but my search gave me so many links that I didn't reach this one yet--- probably I made a very broad search)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4997.0.html --> This I did reach, but only made sense after reading the previous)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4164.0.html --> Didn't reach this yet

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7421.0.html --> Didn't reach this, but the part of the "cycling" I did understood when I read it at Chang's

Thank you for narrowing the possibilities and bringing me a clear, understandable, definition of parallel sets! Now many things make sense! 
This forum has so much info that I'm a little bit lost! That's why I asked for help. Sorry if I were rude, I didn't mean it.

[rachmaninova]

BTW, after Chang's, I was thinking on attacking Sandor's book... is it worth?

[m1469]

Thank you for narrowing the possibilities and bringing me a clear, understandable, definition of parallel sets! Now many things make sense! 
This forum has so much info that I'm a little bit lost! That's why I asked for help. Sorry if I were rude, I didn't mean it.

You were not rude in the slightest and you don't need to apologize for anything.  You were not wrong to ask for help, there is indeed A LOT of information on the boards and it can be difficult to wade through to find exactly what you need, even with the search function (as you have discovered  ).

Welcome to the forum  

m1469

[xvimbi]

Sorry if I were rude, I didn't mean it.

You were not rude at all.

This topic has been discussed in great length, because many people had questions like you. I felt that the answer to your questions may be in one of these threads and thought you hadn't used the search function (it is difficult to find after all. The button should be a lot bigger).

But generally, it helps if the questions are as specific as possible.

BTW, your English is outstanding. I think your only problems might be with some of the weird terms.

[rachmaninova]

Just one little thing: before I posted the first time, I already had used that tiny little button of search... but it came with so many links that I felt lost and scared! 
I'm so eager to learn that I don't know how to start and how to organize all the information... but this forum is like a Bible!!!

Thank you all!

[xvimbi]

BTW, after Chang's, I was thinking on attacking Sandor's book... is it worth?

The Sandor, IMO, belongs to the MUST-READ books that every pianist should have in his/her collection.

I can already hear you type a follow-up question...

[Souza]

Hi, o great god(esse)s of the piano!

I'm quite a newbie on this forum, and I need some help...
I started a few days ago reading Chang's book, which seems very understandable but my english isn't very good and I didn't understand chord attack and parallel sets. Well, at least I'm not very sure of the translation to my language (portuguese) and unfortunately we use very few english terms in Portugal.
Could someone give me a clue or, at least, give me some links to topics where these items were discussed?

Carla

Olá Carla, que bom te ler aqui no forum.

Tenho as mesmas dificuldes com o Inglês. O livro do Chang é fantástico. Mas mesmo pra quem entende a língua inglesa é confuso em alguns momentos, tanto que muitas vezes os membros do forum discutem sobre seus ensinamentos, pedindo explicações e confirmações.

Eu creio que chord attack é uma forma de abordar o estudo de um trecho musical para que você domine aquele trecho.  Você transforma em acorde um trecho que seria melódico.

Essas notas tocadas em acorde seriam a forma mais rápida que poderíamos executar aquele trecho melódico.  A partir dessa velocidade máxima, em acorde, vamos diminuindo, do mais rápido para o mais lento, até chegar ao andamento desejado.

Por exemplo...a invenção n 1 de Bach, começa na mão direita com as notas do re mi fa re mi do sol....desse trecho identificar os parallel sets seria pegar as notas do re mi fa, primeira sequência do trecho que pode ser tocada em conjunto, em acorde...a segunda sequência seria o fa/ re...depois o re/mi...depois o mi/do... por último o do/sol...esses seriam os parallel sets que poderíamos identificar neste pequeno trecho de 8 notas...

Muito bem, com o primeiro parallel set, do re mi fa, tocando-se com os dedos,  1, 2, 3 e 4 da mão direita...  tocaríamos este trecho em acorde e não conforme está escrito na peça, uma nota em seguida da outra...dessa forma  você estará tocando estas 4 notas na velocidade máxima possível.  Veja que estamos apenas trabalhando as 4 primeiras notas do trecho inicial de 8 notas...
 
Assim, você  vai dividindo aquele trecho inicial de 8 notas em parallel sets, pois tocados na velocidade máxima, em acordes ou chord attack, você com facilidade está tocando aquele pequeno trecho numa velociade incrivelmente alta....(imagine se fosse um trecho muito difícil, que precisasse ser tocado muito rápido.... portanto, você ja conseguiria tocar na velocidade máxima aquele trecho muito difícil. Compreendeu?

Resumindo:

1- identifique  parallel sets dos trechos que precisa aprimorar, ou que tenha grande dificuldade.
2 - toque o acorde deste primeiro parallel set.
3 - diminua a velocidade, isto é, transforme o acorde em sequência melódica,  individualizando as notas do mais rapido possivel (acorde) para o mais lento, chegando ao andamento desejado.

Dessa forma, fazendo-se do mais rápido para o mais lento, evita-se o speed wall, um verdadeiro muro no sistema muscular, que impede você  de alcançar o andamento desejado quando ele é muito rápido. 

Por isso não se recomenda iniciar o estudo do mais lento pro mais rápido, pois você esbarra no speed wall, e deste "muro" não passa, e não consegue portanto tocar determinado trecho quando o andamento é muito rápido.

Isto é muito importante quando identificamos um trecho muito difícil de uma música, aí então, identificamos os parallel sets, e começamos dos acordes para as notas individualizadas, em sequência melódica, diminundo a velocidade para o andamento desejado.

Incrível isso pois é exatamente o oposto daquilo que sempre nos ensinaram.

Desculpe, acabei escrevendo demais... espero não ter ferido as netiquetas deste maravilhoso forum.

Também tenho muita dificuldade pra escrever em inglês, mas consigo entender o que leio um pouco melhor. Espero ter ajudado. 

Aproveito pra te pedir um favor, vc poderia me dizer como conseguir o Neuhaus em espanhol?  Estou procurando há algum tempo. 

Realmente não temos nenhum destes livros que você deseja em português.

Grande abraço daqui do Brasil. 

Pedro

ps ...Excuses, I really don't know how to translate into english these portuguese words. It would be a pleasure to translate it to all the  members of the forum. Sorry! 

[rachmaninova]

Thank you so much, Pedro!
This was indeed enlightening! Please, see the PM I sent you, I gave you some info on Neuhaus.

Unfortunately, I think I don't have the skills to translate what he wrote beautifully in portuguese to english.

Best regards,
Carla

[Souza]

Thank you so much, Pedro!
This was indeed enlightening! Please, see the PM I sent you, I gave you some info on Neuhaus.

Unfortunately, I think I don't have the skills to translate what he wrote beautifully in portuguese to english.

Best regards,
Carla

Carla
You are welcome.

Thank you too Carla!
I just ordered Neuhaus at casadosmusicos as you suggested.


We have very few books translated into portuguese in Brazil.

At www.musimed.com.br you can find some pedagogical musical books:

1)Alfred Cortot - Curso de interpretação - Editora Musimed - Brasília - DF 1986

2) There is also a brasilian book  "A técnica Pianística - uma abordagem científica" - Claudio Richerme. 

Richerme's thesis brings a  brief historical theories on technics  and arguments against scientific mistakes over this issues, as even as analysis of possible muscular movements, muscular coordenation and execution, in order of a better sound control....

You can order at Musimed (where I ordered mine).

Take a look at Changs video over TO/TU, enlightening the subtle and  fundamental nuances of TO/TU technique.
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,12555.0.html

There is a lot of very good english  material about technic. Some of them with an important video companion.

Clicking in my last name "souza" in this forum, at the link "Show the last posts of this person", you can find some references I have posted about those books and videos.  I have all of them, and  it is important to say that I am very grateful to this forum for sharing all this great knowledge. It is a great postgraduate that helps our improvements on piano playing.

Best wishes
Pedro

ps I love your username rachmaninova.

[rachmaninova]

Thank you once again, Pedro!
I'm now checking the brazilian site and your last posts...   


PS: Love my nick too, I hope my teacher hears my praying and give me one etude-tableau to study this year!!! 

[Souza]

Thank you once again, Pedro!
I'm now checking the brazilian site and your last posts...   


PS: Love my nick too, I hope my teacher hears my praying and give me one etude-tableau to study this year!!! 

Dear Carla

Is it possible you do me a favor and contact casa dos musicos ...Let me try to explain...I ordered Neuhaus book in spanish,  but I think they don't ship to Brazil.  They don't give any online answer to my request. 

Any other adress you gave me ships to Brazil, but I suspect casa dos musicos do.

If possible, please, give a help ok.

Thanks in advance and good luck with etude-tableau!
Pedro

[sermone]

Hello,
you might want to check out the following site for Chang's book in Spanish:
https://perso.wanadoo.es/libro_piano
Hope it helps,
sermone

[leahcim]

Hello,
you might want to check out the following site for Chang's book in Spanish:
https://perso.wanadoo.es/libro_piano
Hope it helps,
sermone

I nearly mentioned this, but it's only a list of contents in Spanish afaict?

edit: Ah, I see, just the links go to the English, the text is there after all....