Am i sexist

[zheer]

Are men better at playing the piano, for instance look at the list of composers and the leading concert pianist its mainly men. Is it genetic or are we men given more opertunitys.

[pianistimo]

yep, your sexist.  look at the way you phrase your question.  obviously men are better because there are more of them.  what about rephrasing it.  maybe, like "of all the pianists i've heard, the most sensitive are women?"  or something like that.  or, maybe the question is not who is better. 

what if we put brown bags over the heads of all concert pianists?  or never pulled the stage curtains up.  would anyone care, if you could hear the music?  probably not, if you are into piano big time.  many people shut their eyes.  so, no matter if you are really attractive (like helene grimaud) people cannot hold it against you.  or take into account the size of your hands.

on the other hand, in our society, it is no longer the males that are expected to go out and 'hold their own' as it used to be in ancient civilizations (where the women stayed at home and took care of the children - more often than not).  women are choosing to make careers beyond family.  it's really a field that requires a lot of concentration and therefore having a family would make more responsibilities and different priorities.

i think that it's a choice one has to make based upon their percieved talents.  or, maybe for some, the work that they've invested over the years.  if you decide to have a family, i think you have to prioritize them as number one instead of piano as number one.  otherwise, it might be selfish.  women, on the whole, tend to invest less time to piano because of having children, imo.  but, it doesn't mean they are incapable of being concert artists.  clara schumann did it.  many women are concert performers in many fields; vocal, instrumental, percussion.  i think it takes a lot of organization, determination, and lack of fear.

do you think men are intimidated by women who play well?  i always thought, of most endeavors, it would be one of the least intimidating since there is so much variety of music out there to play and so many abilities, and interpretations of pieces.  no one really plays exactly like anyone else.

[zheer]

Well look pianisimo i would rather listen to Horowitz play Rach 3 than than a wanabe women pianist, haw can a women match RachMANinoff in strength and passion onestly, its Rach  MAN inoff.

[pianistimo]

i would probably pick a male to play rachmaninov, too.  they have naturally big hands and can play those massive chords.  but, i still plan on going to hear helene grimaud play rach. 2 in october.  i've yet to hear her live, and i'm intruiged that she would choose rachmaninov.  does she have big hands (i have no clue).

some women can get a lot of sound out of the piano without trying.  i am one of those.  i can play, it's just that i never get in as much practice as i would like.  in every field of endeavor i try, am extremely competitive.  i don't know why.  it's probably a bad thing.  i don't try to be competitive.  it's just that it comes out.  i want to be the best that i can be -so i sort of compete with what i think i might not be able to do - but try anyway.

i like to hear pianists that have experienced beauty in their life and try to express it through piano.  i have seen and heard many beautiful things, and would like to someday be told that someone really 'saw' something through my playing.  it wouldn't have to be rachmaninov.  maybe mozart.  or, brahms.  or maybe samuel barber.  it's not what you play, but how you play it, right!

[zheer]

Yes you have a point, infact i think Cesile Ouset play the Bminor sonata by Lizt better than 90 % of men out there. Yes women do compete with men i dont know why that is.All the best.

[prometheus]

Woman know there are more important things in life than playing or composing all day. Or studying chess/math/phyiscs/etc all day long.

[pianistimo]

yes.  thanks.  that's where beauty comes in.  i mean, i can't play piano unless i take a walk, or go bicycling.  that's where i get a lot of inspiration.  and, also from travel.  but, mostly from love.  women can't live without it.  i don't think men either.  they might try, but it doesn't prove anything.

art has to be something actively sought out, as well as spiritual nourishment.  there are many sides to a musical personality.  it basically boils down to choosing what you are trying to express in each piece (and how it possibly ties in to your own life - if you choose to express more feelings).  sometimes i tend to distance myself in mozart and think about nature or opera, or stuff that is more impersonal (like one of the classics).  but, with brahms and beethoven, i feel more intimately connected.  it's as though they read your mind or you read theirs.

[perfect_pitch]

Men may have the strength, but sometimes the most romantic recording you can ever hear is a woman playing a lovely Romantic Chopin Piece. Beautiful..

Women are elegant in themselves, and this comes across in their playing.

[jim_24601]

Woman know there are more important things in life than playing or composing all day. Or studying chess/math/phyiscs/etc all day long.

I believe that what prometheus is trying to say, albeit in a somewhat crude and sexist manner, is that males tend to be more suited to focusing on a given task to the exclusion of all else, whereas females tend to be more holistic and socially oriented. On the "male" side we give it names like obsession, Asperger's, in extreme cases autism, and treat it as an aberration and an illness. Curiously, we call the equivalent extremes on the "female" side things like compassion, spirituality, woman's intuition ...

Anyway, it isn't at all about muscular strength, or indeed about elegance in a sexual sense. A woman can generate enough muscle power to physically damage a piano, as a man can, although I don't dispute that Rachmaninoff is easier to play if you have large hands. Piano playing, like chess or computer programming, is one of those things that isn't actually difficult, but requires an enormous amount of effort and single-minded dedication to become really good at. Pianists are obsessive (like chess players and computer programmers), as has been remarked elsewhere on the forum many times, and obsession is a male trait rather than a female.

And appreciation of beauty and romance isn't uniquely a female trait. A sad song can make me cry too. If you prick us, do we not bleed? (Although in our case, you do actually have to prick us and not just wait a few weeks).

[ted]

As far as music is concerned I just respond to sound and sound alone. Whether a player or composer is male, female or even perhaps a computer, doesn't enter into it - completely irrelevant.

Are men better at playing the piano in general ? No, I don't think so. Better composers ? No, I don't think so, at least not when I happen to be listening to Chaminade or Mary Lou Williams, which is quite often ! Put it this way I'd rather hear Chaminade or Williams than all those dried up classical men put together but that statement itself will probably cause a separate argument of an entirely different nature !

I won't even venture into the topic of bleeding and pricks thank you very much. I'm probably in trouble enough as it is.

[zheer]

Hi perfect pitch could you give me an example of a women who can play more elegantly than Rubenstine.

   Men understand each other better, therefore we are closer to the male composer,for instance the composer might be expressing his love for a women wich they often do,as a male pianist i can express that effortlessly sometimes.
         

[gruffalo]

answering your question about composers, well in those times they were very sexist, as we all know so i think that had a big impact. however now there are so many female musicians because it is accepted in society.

[zheer]

We may have more female musicains these days but are they better,NO .
The piano and its repetoir is the product of male excellence,we are now living in a womens world but we men are better at cooking ,cleaning,nitting and piano playing.I think am going to get shot for typing this.

[gruffalo]

if they werent better, then why would they be famous or well known?

[zheer]

Haw many famous and well known female pianists do you know, i can count them with 2 hands, i bet you dont know many.

[xvimbi]

We may have more female musicains these days but are they better,NO .
The piano and its repetoir is the product of male excellence,we are now living in a womens world but we men are better at cooking ,cleaning,nitting and piano playing.I think am going to get shot for typing this.

You won't get shot, don't worry, but it looks suspiciously like you don't qualify as "male excellence". I hope your cleaning abilities are truly outstanding

[zheer]

My cleaning abilities have improved over the years, i have a phd in cleaning.

[prometheus]

I believe that what prometheus is trying to say, albeit in a somewhat crude and sexist manner,

The only other conclusions are sexist ones. Either females are just less able, the audience doesn't like female pianists or males that are in control keep the females down.

Not only are those less preferable, which should be totally irrelevant anyway, they are also less in agreement with the facts.

How many people waste their time on talents they don't have for every one that does accomplish his/her goals. For every Feynman/Kasparov/Horowitz/Barber/etc there are tons that fail. They have this obsession, spend all their time on it and get nowhere.

[stormcrow]

Interesting thread.

[thalbergmad]

I might be mistaken, but there seems to be a lot of female piano students, but mostly male pianists.

There does seem to be some sexism in the piano world and long may it continue.

[Siberian Husky]

look we all have our fortes...men play the waldstein..women play the pathetique...men smell like car oil..women smell like sandwiches..

[pianistimo]

why limit yourself to what others tell you.  that's my motto.  whether it's been my parents, a counselor, a teacher, etc.  if i don't agree.  i simply don't agree. and, i just keep on going up my slippery slope thinking, they don't know the half of me.  if i don't have challenges, life isn't worth living.  now, some women that i know are perfectly happy to live at home 24/7 and really feel fulfilled.  i feel that sometimes, but the cooking and cleaning get old.  there has to be more to life for me. 

that's why piano is my second passion, besides my hubby and family.  if i didn't have it, i would go literally crazy.  it destresses.  it sensitizes me again to people's feelings (when i've had the kids all day), exercises the fingers, and exercises my brain.  i feel empowered by it.  and, also, in a strange way encouraged (like going for psychotherapy) by the sounds and the rhythms.  after practicing, i feel normal.  if i didn't practice (or don't for a couple of days) i feel really stressed out.

men and women aRE probably more similar than different.  i'm sure they feel love and pain.  maybe in different ways, but similar in the sense that they feel great when things are going well, and terrible when they are 'bleeding' from a wound of whatever kind.  music is always faithful, always there (unless your piano malfunctions - in which case you go to the nearest college and use the practice pianos), and always gives you what you want.  to me, the only other high that i have is the spiritual kind.  where you feel refreshed and ready to do the other stuff that you must. 

ps i've never felt the walstein was only composed for men.  i think it is composed for anyone who wants to experience a sort of joy and freedom in leaving the 'technique' world and entering the spiritual side of freedom.  just letting go.  i've never had a better feeling than playing the Waldstein.  it's my favorite piece, so far, and i'm a woman.  you don't have to be in love or out of love to play it.  you simply have to have love.  i've played it when happy, angry, sad, and it always sort of evens out my temperament.

[gruffalo]

i still believe that men and women have been created equally. where we have a weaknesses, they have their strengths.

[thierry13]

i still believe that men and women have been created equally. where we have a weaknesses, they have their strengths.

Indeed. Men have different strenghts. Wich mean they can be better than women in certain things, like piano technique, or QI. Women are better at shoping.

[prometheus]

The person with the highest IQ measured is a woman; Marilyn vos Savant. No idea if she is any good at shopping.

[Floristan]

Shoping?  Is that from the verb "to shope,"  meaning to walk with a languorous gait?  If so, I agree that women shope better than men.   

Amazing how we get this far along in a discussion of gender and piano playing without a mention of Martha Argerich, so here it is:  MARTHA ARGERICH.  The woman can play circles around most men and push her hair out of her face at the same time.  She totally destroyed any idea I ever had about gender and piano playing.  She has made it perfectly clear that gender is no barrier to powerful pianism (that sounds kind of nasty, doesn't it  ).   Seriously, she is phenomenally powerful, and if you've ever seen her play, she has flawless technique, by which I mean she appears totally relaxed and at ease (though always focused and intense) at the keyboard.

If Argerich exists, it's hard to believe there aren't other women like her.  Do we not see them because of sexism in the music industry, or could it be the more subtle effect of the way girls are enculturated to be nurturing and social, while boys are taught to be independent and aggressive.  The life of a solo pianist requires a drive and will that I think comes more naturally to men than women, given how we are raised.  On top of that a soloist's life is, well, solo -- long periods of touring alone.  Men, being less social, miss society less and are more likely to be content with their own company.  And, I would guess, men are just more self-centered than women, and it takes that kind of ego to be a star soloist.

Argerich finally quit solo performing because it was so lonely and she wanted to have a life that involved other people -- so naturally she has gravitated to chamber music.  I wonder if that isn't what happens to many women pianists from the get-go -- they choose ensemble work because it suits their personalities better.

A woman doesn't need power necessarily to be a great pianist.  Alicia de la Rocha was about 5 feet tall, couldn't reach an octave, and yet she played almost everything.   While she may not be my favorite pianist for many things, she IS my favorite for the repertoire in which she specialized -- Albeniz, Granados, de Falla, Mompou, et al.  Never once hearing her play did I think, "See, she's rolling that chord," or "She left out a note in the middle of that chord."  I'm sure she did.  She was so musical that whatever she did, she made it sound absolutely right.  I saw her once doing one of the Mozart concerti, I think it was #20, and it was stunning.

 

[dmk]

look we all have our fortes...men play the waldstein..women play the pathetique...men smell like car oil..women smell like sandwiches..

And for all those who think Hamelin is the only on who can play Alkan well read this link, women play Alkan just as well as men!!

https://www.alkansociety.org/HTMLobj-213/bul46.PDF (If you don't want to read the whole thing type McCallum into the search function)

Look outside your square and you might actually see something other than corners.

[m1469]

Am i sexist

No, you're just a man 

[thierry13]

The person with the highest IQ measured is a woman; Marilyn vos Savant. No idea if she is any good at shopping.

  I was .............. JOKING!

[Mozartian]

but we men are better at cooking ,cleaning,nitting and piano playing.I think am going to get shot for typing this.

...nitting...
you mean...
knitting?!
YOU CAN'T EVEN SPELL IT RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!
AAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd like to see some dopey guy be better at knitting than me, sheesh.....

[prometheus]

It's hard to be sure if someone is joking with someone like Zheer around...

[rimv2]

I'd like to see some dopey guy be better at knitting than me, sheesh.....

A ghey male knitter would run circles around you while twitching his hips and nagging about the metal hanger in your closet.

[rimv2]

Shoping?  Is that from the verb "to shope,"  meaning to walk with a languorous gait?  If so, I agree that women shope better than men.   

But of course we all know this is not what he meant

Let's juss analyse the the words.

Shopping. Notice the two p's. By the VCCV rule is maining pronounce much like poping or stopping.

Shoping. Notice only one P. By the VCV rule is more than likely pronounce like groping.

Even more let's take another look at the word itself.

Shope = past tense of shape

Amazing how we get this far along in a discussion of gender and piano playing without a mention of Martha Argerich, so here it is:  MARTHA ARGERICH.  The woman can play circles around most men and push her hair out of her face at the same time.  She totally destroyed any idea I ever had about gender and piano playing.  She has made it perfectly clear that gender is no barrier to powerful pianism (that sounds kind of nasty, doesn't it  ).   Seriously, she is phenomenally powerful, and if you've ever seen her play, she has flawless technique, by which I mean she appears totally relaxed and at ease (though always focused and intense) at the keyboard.

Martha Argerich is a man (juss check the hands if you wanna be certain)

If Argerich exists, it's hard to believe there aren't other women like her.  Do we not see them because of sexism in the music industry, or could it be the more subtle effect of the way girls are enculturated to be nurturing and social, while boys are taught to be independent and aggressive.  The life of a solo pianist requires a drive and will that I think comes more naturally to men than women, given how we are raised.  On top of that a soloist's life is, well, solo -- long periods of touring alone.  Men, being less social, miss society less and are more likely to be content with their own company.  And, I would guess, men are just more self-centered than women, and it takes that kind of ego to be a star soloist.

You guessed wrong. By your post, one would guess you were a woman, so it makes sense then.

Need proof? Your ego is making you respond to the posts on this thread.

Argerich finally quit solo performing because it was so lonely and she wanted to have a life that involved other people -- so naturally she has gravitated to chamber music.  I wonder if that isn't what happens to many women pianists from the get-go -- they choose ensemble work because it suits their personalities better.

Or they give up the piano for shopping, chatting, and competing with friends.

A woman doesn't need power necessarily to be a great pianist.  Alicia de la Rocha was about 5 feet tall, couldn't reach an octave, and yet she played almost everything.   While she may not be my favorite pianist for many things, she IS my favorite for the repertoire in which she specialized -- Albeniz, Granados, de Falla, Mompou, et al.  Never once hearing her play did I think, "See, she's rolling that chord," or "She left out a note in the middle of that chord."  I'm sure she did.  She was so musical that whatever she did, she made it sound absolutely right.  I saw her once doing one of the Mozart concerti, I think it was #20, and it was stunning.

So...she changed the music around to suit her disability. That's skillz

AHAHA

Had nothing better to do at 2am

[rimv2]

No, you're just a man 

And you are woman. A woman... with a small brain. A third the size of ours. It's science.

[zheer]

Thanks for helping me on the front line rimv2 , i can smell the gun powder from where am sitting.

[leahcim]

Martha Argerich is a man

So that's 2 things she has over you then

[m1469]

And you are woman. A woman... with a small brain. A third the size of ours. It's science.

he he.... 

[mrchops10]

Sorry I got onto this a little late, but let's just keep asking questions, for instance, am I racist if I point out that blacks don't go very far in the classical world? I mean there's like one famous black classical pianist (Andre Watts). Perhaps its because of their lower IQ (see The Bell Curve) that they end of playing low-class monkey-music like jazz and R & B. Is anyone else getting a little sick of these "observations?" 

[zheer]

That is very racist, am not sure you should say things like that especialy since there are plenty of white people playing jazz and loving r and b. Black people demonstrate high IQ in many other fields, and are highly musical.

[al]

That is very racist, am not sure you should say things like that especialy since there are plenty of white people playing jazz and loving r and b. Black people demonstrate high IQ in many other fields, and are highly musical.

he's being sarcastic (look at the last sentence).

anyway,

women smell like sandwiches..

what?

[Floristan]

women smell like sandwiches..

Yeah, I was wondering about that, too.  Very interesting... 

[m1469]

Black people demonstrate high IQ in many other fields, and are highly musical.

wait, wait, wait... that could really be misunderstood if you are not careful.  You meant that black men demonstrate high IQ in many other fields, and are highly musical.  Right ?  We just don't want to send out the wrong message here 


ooops, Am I still here ?  nope 

[guru_of_time]

And you are woman. A woman... with a small brain. A third the size of ours. It's science.

I love anchorman (random)

[rimv2]

So that's 2 things she has over you then

Yeah

Massive forearms and a feminine face

But there's one...  make that three things we both have in common.

wait, wait, wait... that could really be misunderstood if you are not careful.  You meant that black men demonstrate high IQ in many other fields, and are highly musical.  Right ?  We just don't want to send out the wrong message here 

That's right

ooops, Am I still here ?  nope 

Ah, back to the kitchen it is then.

[pianistimo]

yes.  that's where the knives are. 
(just kidding)

why?  why the jokes?   i mean women don't go around complaining there's more men.  they do things so much better?  we just accept what comes to us.  why should we be criticized if we are so near the bottom anyway.  i think you are fearful for nothing.  the only thing you need fear is fear itself.  and possibly being tricked out of something.  like, being told your zipper is down as you're walking on stage (btw, this never happens to women because we are always 'aware')

[rimv2]

why?  why the jokes?

Got nothing better to do

i mean women don't go around complaining there's more men.

Yeah ya do. Then amazingly you realize what the world would be like if no one was there to carry that heavy suitcase for ya. (maybe youd just  pack lighter )

yeah ya do they do things so much better

At least you finally admit it

we just accept what comes to us.

and thats the way it should be

why should we be criticized if we are so near the bottom anyway.

Its for this very type of thinking you are still there

i think you are fearful for nothing.  the only thing you need fear is fear itself.  and possibly being tricked out of something.

Fear is a delusion created by women. Men just call it rational withdrawal

 

like, being told your zipper is down as you're walking on stage (btw, this never happens to women because we are always 'aware')

Aware...paranoid...obsessive compulsive...

Whatever you want to call it... really

[rimv2]

And as a final thought.

Eat more beef!!!

[m1469]

Ah, back to the kitchen it is then.

Yes, mastah... 

[pianistimo]

'if' is a big word   - IF women are at the bottom.  now, you might think they are only able to be in the kitchen or doing some lesser work. obviously, you've never seen karate kid 2.  the women are essential to the man's winning.  and, visa-versa.  i mean, do men ever cheer each other up?  no, they only compete - and some totally ruin anothers self-worth.  it's only women who make men feeling even one ounce of trying to win.  if there were no women, men would be reduced to obligation rather that the thrill of victory.

the same for women.  if we asked the question karate kid did - the choice is yours:  live or die   - obviously, it would not be smart to answer die.  we could twist your nose and say 'wrong choice.'  we ultimately know that as long as we're around, you sometimes might wish you'd died.  we know we're smarter.  we just play dumb.   i mean really, have you ever won anything over a woman.  no, you let them win.  then, it's less work for us and a sort of dumbing down for you. 

[zheer]

Yes I have have seen karate kid 2 and no she had nothing to do with him wining the championships, she went back to her old boyfriend, typical for a silly cow really.
       According to your theory men are better at playing piano and women like to pretend that they are stupid. Well that sounds molto fortisimo con brio to me.