Learn Chopin Nocturne Op.72 #1 with Me!

[violinist]

I just printed out the music.  Here's the .pdf file:

https://www.sheetmusicarchive.net/compositions_b/noct72_1.pdf

Maybe we could learn it together and post about how we're doing and maybe even record it and put our progress up on the audition room.

Anyone up for this?

My background.

New at piano.  But I don't think I'm bad.  No piano teacher currently.  I have studied piano from age 5 to age about 9 (I think..  I can't remember that far back, but I hated it back then.. now it's different)  But have lots of talent for Violin and have been playing violin for decades.  I'm in my 30's - sort of an adult learner but had a few years of lessons at a young age which helps.   I work as a general and trauma surgeon during the day and night.

Join me or relearn this piece and let's talk about it.  Tell me also a little about yourself.

Let me know what you think of this idea.

- Calvin

[bearzinthehood]

I have no means of recording anything right now, but if you're still working on it in December I'll give it a shot. 

[nightmarecinema]

This is one of the two pieces I've been wanting to learn recently, and our music encyclopedias did not have either. This music is greatly appreciated, although I'm sorry I won't be able to record it any time soon.

[violinist]

Forget the recordings.  Let's just start learning it!  Great piece!

I started learning the first page already today. 

It's not as hard as I thought!  It's a good workout for the left had... those arpeggio like passages, and some bouncing around for the left hand.

I wish I didn't have to work tomorrow (Saturday).  I usually like to play piano all day on the weekends.

So.. let's start... start at the beginning with the first page!

I'll catch up to you on Sunday if anyone starts on the second page already.

Nice to have that .pdf link to the sheet music.

[violinist]

I have no means of recording anything right now, but if you're still working on it in December I'll give it a shot. 

Learn it now!.  Print it out and start!

By December I'll be performing it in Carnegie hall.

[violinist]

I'm going to try to post a "teaser" to show what I've learned so far... just the first page.. played kinda badly, but I just started learning it... the reason I'm posting the first page played badly is so that you know which nocturn I'm talking about. 

The bad playing will motivate you to pick this piece up (again?) and play it right and show me how to play it!

So.. look for the file!

I'm going to try to place it under the "Audition Room"

So who's with me??  I'm taking Saturday off completely from piano playing.  I hope to play some on Sunday... probably learn the second page.

- Calvin

[violinist]

Want to start by telling me what piano you are playing on?

I just got a steinway B.  Fun.. but it needs to be tuned.

[violinist]

Here's the link to the audition room topic:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,13183.0.html

it's titled: First page only: chopin


The post is full of bad grammar, punctuation, etc.  Hopefully I'll play better than I can type.

[bearzinthehood]

I can try to record it when I go back home for Thanksgiving.  There aren't that many notes to it, you can probably memorize it in a couple sittings.  I'll see what I can do over the next week or two.

[zheer]

Am familiar with this nocturne, i can sight read through it very well, if i new haw to post a recording i would gladly post it for you. however i can only get a video of me playig the piano on my computer, i am not sure haw to post sorry.
This nocturne is easy to play but very difficult to play well, the first thing we should dicuss is the tempo then the dynamics.The reason why i menssion tempo is because i have recorded the first nocturne in B flat minor and i thought i playd it well, but when i heard the result instead of it sounding expressive , dreamy and like a song it just sounded slow and boring.

[violinist]

Oh good advice from the previous two posts from Zheer and Bear!

You guys make it sound like a piece of cake.

I'm not that good at sight reading piano (yet).

This left hand jumping around is hard.

Also those octives on the first page is kind of hard too... it has a 1-3 fingering for an octave!  my hands are small

I really love this piece!!!

I can't wait to get home and play it.. if I ever get to.

I'll try to learn the notes one page at a time..
then go back and start trying to play it well.  then go back and try to memorize it!

Thanks for commenting on this piece with me!

[violinist]

I can try to record it when I go back home for Thanksgiving.  There aren't that many notes to it, you can probably memorize it in a couple sittings.  I'll see what I can do over the next week or two.

I can't wait to hear your recording!

[sergei r]

I actually just finished learning this piece not that long ago, still need to memorise though. If I had any recording equipment I would record it and post a recording for you, but at the moment I don't...I really need to look into it some time.

[berrt]

Maybe we could learn it together

I just played sight-reading through the first page (1/10 of the required speed) - and yes, i could learn that. Probably had somehow to simplify the fast runs of page 3.
Then i played the rubinstein-cd - well, there IS a difference.....

Background: Im 52 yo, playing the piano for 18 month, musical background: electric guitar when i was a teenager.

btw im an anesthetist, so we are natural enemies? :-)

berrt

[violinist]

I actually just finished learning this piece not that long ago, still need to memorise though. If I had any recording equipment I would record it and post a recording for you, but at the moment I don't...I really need to look into it some time.

Sergie,

I just got my recording equipment.  It was more challenging than I thought to get it together.  But once I got it going.  It was fun.  I actually got it because I wanted to post in this forum.  It's a great motivator to do things.  Good luck.  The device I got is hard enough to use, I probably wouldn't recommend it.  I got the ZOOM PS-04 palm top studio.  I still can't figure it all out.  It has a built in microphone and looks like a walkman, and has a memory card (smart media) that pops out and sticks into the computer.  Then I had to download some special software that allowed me to convert the file over the .wav = then I had to get another software to convert .wav to .mp3

I nearly gave up.

But now, I'm happy.

[violinist]

I just played sight-reading through the first page (1/10 of the required speed) - and yes, i could learn that. Probably had somehow to simplify the fast runs of page 3.
Then i played the rubinstein-cd - well, there IS a difference.....

Background: Im 52 yo, playing the piano for 18 month, musical background: electric guitar when i was a teenager.

btw im an anesthetist, so we are natural enemies? :-)

berrt

Hello Berrt,

I have that rubinstein CD!!  it is totally out of this world!  I'm going to play like that!  (dreaming).

We're not natural enemies !!  We're on the same team!

You should have seen all the gunshot wounds I got last night!  I had to do some vascular repair... nevermind.  This isn't the trauma discussion board.

But isn't the piece so much fun!  I love it. 

I'm afraid of that 3rd page too.

Let's keep plugging at this piece.

I just posted (because of your encouragement) the first 3 lines of the second page.  I wimped out on learning all the second page.

I might get to the 3rd page by Tuesday or Wednesday.   

I really need to play some violin too.   Hard to do both and have a real life, and have other hobbies such as running and gardening.

Tell me more about your progress.

[violinist]

I just wanted to mention that Gary has placed a demonstration of how he teaches and plays the third page of this Nocturne on the audition board.  Under "first page chopin"

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,13183.0.html

I'm not sure if the link works to his post... Maybe someone could post the link for me - not sure how to do that.

But it's very impressive indeed.

Thanks Gary!

[zheer]

Hi violinist remember what i said about tempo, well Gaer has the correct tempo for this nocturne, you mentioned haw much you liked his playing. Well the first difference between his playing and yours is the tempo and dynamics, you may wont to avoid the same mistake which i make and thats playing too slowly, i know you are still working on this piece but keep that thought in you mind.All the best.

[leahcim]

I'm not sure if the link works to his post... Maybe someone could post the link for me - not sure how to do that.

You just copy the link that's at the top of his reply [the re:blah blah link]

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,13183.msg142550.html#msg142550

[ada]

OMG have just started this piece. It's gorgeous. Gave me goosebumps. I'm not really supposed to be learning new pieces as I already have a few on the boil but I'm going to toy with this in my spare time.

Thanks for the link violinist

ada

[berrt]

Tell me more about your progress.

My progress is nearly zero at the moment. 12 h of work and then some tennis dates (oh my lamentable fate... ).
Next week it will get better.

Have fun with your sales people!

bye
berrt

[violinist]

OMG have just started this piece. It's gorgeous. Gave me goosebumps. I'm not really supposed to be learning new pieces as I already have a few on the boil but I'm going to toy with this in my spare time.

Thanks for the link violinist

ada

Ada and Bert!  Hello!

Ada, I hope you're able to get those files to play in the audition room.  I'm not sure what's wrong.  Anybody else have problems?  And Bert... I used to play tennis.   Now...  I just play piano! (and violin).  I'm going to tackle the third page later today.  Hopefully get a recording out to show how I'm doing with the third page.  Gary is awesome - did you guys see his rendition of how to practice the third page?  Then he rips through it with style to show the finished product.

[gaer]

I just wanted to mention that Gary has placed a demonstration of how he teaches and plays the third page of this Nocturne on the audition board.  Under "first page chopin"

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,13183.0.html

I'm not sure if the link works to his post... Maybe someone could post the link for me - not sure how to do that.

But it's very impressive indeed.

Thanks Gary!

You are more than welcome! Actually, it's a treat to come here, because I get to meet people who love piano and who are serious about it. I had one student last year who graduated from high school (gone now) who played this nocturne, but let me tell you, I had to spoon feed it to him. What I heard tells me that you are able to get a lot done on your own, which I think is great.

The reason I uploaded the problem section in slo-mo is that I have it notated that way, for students. What this does is simple: it supplies a coherent, notated and countable "solution", but once you sort of "block out" the notes in this more simplified rhythm, later you can add more notes to the long trills and play the short ones quicker.

You can also play the short trills starting on the principle note, although I used the upper auxiliary. I like it this way, and there is a great deal of evidence that Chopin played many trills in this manner, but Rubenstein (I saw him mentioned!) played it in a way that may not have been what Chopin used, but I'd like to think that Chopin would have smiled to hear his own music played so well. Rubenstein has a gracious, warm sound I think is unique, and I think he is underated.

By the way, I wonder why we don't do this more often, uploading little examples in SOUND rather than trying to explain music all the time in words.

Gary

[ada]

Ada and Bert!  Hello!

Ada, I hope you're able to get those files to play in the audition room.  I'm not sure what's wrong.  Anybody else have problems?  And Bert... I used to play tennis.   Now...  I just play piano! (and violin).  I'm going to tackle the third page later today.  Hopefully get a recording out to show how I'm doing with the third page.  Gary is awesome - did you guys see his rendition of how to practice the third page?  Then he rips through it with style to show the finished product.

Hi violinist

My computer tells me I haven't got the supporting software to play MP3 files. It's probably something I can download from the net but I'm hopeless at computer stuff.

Anyhow I've sight-read to page 3 of this beautiful nocturne and will persevere. I'm warning you I'm going to be slow though.

btw, I'm a medical journalist  - does that make us natural enemies??  And where are you working that you get lots of gunshot wounds??? You must either be in LA or a war zone.

It's good to see that there are piano enthusiasts on this forum who also have non-piano related full time jobs. I know the feeling of sitting at work longing to play *sigh*

[violinist]

By the way, I wonder why we don't do this more often, uploading little examples in SOUND rather than trying to explain music all the time in words.

Gary

Ah.. We are trend setters with the sound recordings.  I'm actually new at it.  I posted my third page attempt.  My first day at it.  I'm using your method although you probably can't tell because it's pretty bad (right now).  It will get better.  I have a knack for getting technical passages on the violin by actually going to sleep and forgetting about it for a few hours and then going back to it later.   I'm used to hacking at difficult passages till they become easy (on the violin), but the same persistence translates over to the piano.

Gary, I think you have a bunch of fans on this forum.  I can see why.  You're a great teacher and great pianist.

[violinist]

Hi violinist

My computer tells me I haven't got the supporting software to play MP3 files. It's probably something I can download from the net but I'm hopeless at computer stuff.

Anyhow I've sight-read to page 3 of this beautiful nocturne and will persevere. I'm warning you I'm going to be slow though.

btw, I'm a medical journalist  - does that make us natural enemies??  And where are you working that you get lots of gunshot wounds??? You must either be in LA or a war zone.

It's good to see that there are piano enthusiasts on this forum who also have non-piano related full time jobs. I know the feeling of sitting at work longing to play *sigh*

Ada,

See if the below link gets you a free MP3 player.. use at your own risk!! I've never used it before, but it's from ZdNet (computer magazine website - so very reliable source)

https://downloads-zdnet.com.com/Cool-MP3-Player/3000-2139_2-10104728.html?tag=lst-0-5

you might have to cut and past the link
or click below
https://downloads-zdnet.com.com/Cool-MP3-Player/3000-2139_2-10104728.html?tag=lst-0-5

looks like I posted the link twice.. Whatever.

So Ada, did you download the sheet music?  or you had the music already.. If you downloaded the sheet music and can do all that.. You're pretty advanced on the computer!

Why do I have so many natural enemies.  Actually someone on this board tried to kick me out (nicely though) by suggesting that I go to some violin forum instead.  I guess he or she didn't like my screen name!


You're a medical journalist!  Wow.  Let's write something together!  I love writing!  But not more than playing the piano.  I get these gun shot wounds in the central valley in California, kinda of like a war zone.  Tell me more about what you write about.  You can email me privately if you want:  stradviolin2020@yahoo.com


I do read the paper to try to find out what happened to my patients:

ROBBERS STRIKE CONVENIENCE STORE
Robbers armed with a baseball bat, pistol and pepper spray struck a ----- convenience store early Friday. Two men held up the am-pm minimarket at ----------and ------roads about 2 a.m., said Sgt. Mike Parker of the --------County Sheriff's Department. One robber held a baseball bat to the clerk's head and threatened him, said -------- Police Services Chief ---------. The other robber held the store's door closed and sprayed a friend of the ... <article cut off>


34-YEAR-OLD POINTED GUN AT OFFICERS, POLICE SAID;FAMILYCALLED911
---------County authorities killed a 34-year-old man Friday night near --------after they say he demanded that deputies shoot him and pointed a firearm at them.

-------- was shot by a ------ County sheriff's deputy shortly after 7:40 p.m. He was taken to ------Medical Center -------, where he was pronounced dead at 8:52 p.m., according to the Sheriff's Department.

[ada]

Thanks so much for the links violinist, I'm at work now (it's all happening because Saddam's trial has just begun) but I'll try and download that software when I get back home, which will actually be at midnight, so probably tomorrow!


ada

[berrt]

The reason I uploaded the problem section in slo-mo is that I have it notated that way, for students. What this does is simple: it supplies a coherent, notated and countable "solution", but once you sort of "block out" the notes in this more simplified rhythm, later you can add more notes to the long trills and play the short ones quicker.

I'd like to think that Chopin would have smiled to hear his own music played so well. Rubenstein has a gracious, warm sound I think is unique, and I think he is underated.

Gary

Gary, id like to thank you too for the recording, it will really help very much. However, i need more time than the violinist, perhaps ill post a recording when i have something acceptable (first have to buy a recorder - er.. correct word? not the musical instrument).

The rubinstein collection motivated me to learn waltzes 34/2 and 69/2 but then again... he does not play in another world, there are many many worlds between us...

bye
Berrt

[violinist]

I'm so glad we're having other people try this piece with me.

I'm kind of a hack on the piano.  But I'm fearless with my decades of violin background.  I have confidence from my violin background... it makes me bold.... And chopin makes me crazy (in a good way).  Bold and crazy .... makes me try difficult things.  I should find a piano teacher.  But, I feel that you guys are my teachers.

I've practiced the Third page again.. this morning after waking up!  I'm getting much better.  I'm going to have to skip a day of piano practice again for my work - that will be tomorrow (Thursday).  I can't wait to polish it, and later memorize it.  I'm still learning to read the notes of this piece.

The left hand going all over the place is a challenge for me to keep the notes even in volume.  But I see it as a great exercise to improve.  Actually the octaves on the first page is hard for me too - my reach is small at this point.  Funny how my left hand has a bigger reach than my right (I am right handed).  Maybe from years of stretching it out with violin playing.

I can't wait to hear if other people will record their progress.

Sounds like Berrt, Ada, and Allthumbs are making progress with this piece.  Who else is on board?  Sounds like Sergie is almost done with the piece and Gaer (Gary) is the master teacher of this piece.

I agree with Ada, this piece gives out the goosebumps.  I can't wait to play it live for other people.  Thanks for all the help and encouragement.

[ada]

Progress report: have now sight-read through to the end of page two and can play page one, accurately but way below speed. A little confused though about how to play the crushed notes down the bottom of page 2....any suggestions?

ada

[violinist]

Progress report: have now sight-read through to the end of page two and can play page one, accurately but way below speed. A little confused though about how to play the crushed notes down the bottom of page 2....any suggestions?

ada

I'm also kind of confused by the second half of page 2... I think there's a typo in the music too?  I skipped that part   .... maybe someone can help?  Ada, this is the part that I skipped right?  I'm not sure what you meant by crushed notes.

[rimv2]

Da Rim follows

[ada]

I I'm not sure what you meant by crushed notes.

ah, that'll be the RH A/C sharp and G sharp/B pairs in bars 23-24.  I've been taught that little line through the note means you kind of "crush it" if it's a note above or below,  however these notes are just repeated, so I'm not sure what to do.

But don't stress too much - I have a lesson tonight and I'll ask my teacher. Although I'm gonna get rapped over the knuckles for starting another new piece!

[violinist]

Let me know what you find out.  Aren't they just like the very first note of the piece for the right hand (bar 2)?  What do you call these things?  Ornaments?  Grace notes?  My mind isn't working right now for music.

Let me know what the teacher says after you get a beating.

Also I'm wondering about measure 24.  There's a right hand A/C (second half of the measure) which is A natural and C natural is this right? it sounds wrong.

I have to pull out a recording and listen.

[berrt]

Also I'm wondering about measure 24.  There's a right hand A/C (second half of the measure) which is A natural and C natural is this right? it sounds wrong.

I dont see an A there - G and C are "sharped" in the first part of the bar.

bye
Berrt

[violinist]

I dont see an A there - G and C are "sharped" in the first part of the bar.

bye
Berrt

Maybe I just don't know how to read music.... Let me check.. I have to download the music onto my work computer. (shh).

[violinist]

Maybe I just don't know how to read music.... Let me check.. I have to download the music onto my work computer. (shh).

Maybe I got the measure completely wrong.. I still see the notes..

The first half of the measure I'm talking about has a G#/B dotted half note.

I'll count the measures... let me see..  Hmmm.. I still get measure 24.  Maybe I'll play it out on Friday and have you tell me if it sounds right. 

[violinist]

I dont see an A there - G and C are "sharped" in the first part of the bar.

bye
Berrt

Berrt,

I see the measure you're talking about...
Since you're using the same sheet music I am, the measure I'm talking about is:

It's the second line up from the bottom
Middle measure on that line.

Starts with G#/B then goes into this horrid note with a Natural sign in front of the C.

Help! this can't be right?  I want to play A#/C# I think.  I'm away from the piano right now.

[thierry13]

Learn it now!.  Print it out and start!

By December I'll be performing it in Carnegie hall.

OMG! You're lucky. You allready have a contract?

[berrt]

I see the measure you're talking about...

Ooops - i mixed up left and right. i think its a kind of "upbeat" to the next bar with a# and c#. Rubinstein plays a + c in 24, it "glides" to the required a#+c# in 25.

bye
berrt

[leahcim]

Starts with G#/B then goes into this horrid note with a Natural sign in front of the C.

Help! this can't be right?  I want to play A#/C# I think.  I'm away from the piano right now.

The natural is because of the C# in the bass.

The RH is playing chromatically crescendo there, pp G#/B x2 -> A/C -> A#/C#

So if A#/C# sounds good,, it'll resolve to that in the next bar, so it's probably supposed to create tension as it goes from the pp into the louder section, so it'll probably sound wrong played slowly or if you stop at that point and go "yeuugh" but in the midi I just downloaded it works.

With the LH, it's basically Emajor with B in the bass to Aminor, it might sound strange in context, but that's not unusual by itself.

[violinist]

The natural is because of the C# in the bass.

The RH is playing chromatically crescendo there, pp G#/B x2 -> A/C -> A#/C#

So if A#/C# sounds good,, it'll resolve to that in the next bar, so it's probably supposed to create tension as it goes from the pp into the louder section, so it'll probably sound wrong played slowly or if you stop at that point and go "yeuugh" but in the midi I just downloaded it works.

With the LH, it's basically Emajor with B in the bass to Aminor, it might sound strange in context, but that's not unusual by itself.

Thanks Leachim!  I guess when I play it faster it will sound better.  I guess I'll get over it and maybe love the sound of it too.  You got a link to that midi if it's a free one?  I wonder who sequenced the midi of yours?  I once had a medical student who loved sequencing classical music into midi.  He did this as a hobby.  Now he's a MD somewhere, I'm not sure what he's doing.  But he and I had a good time talking about music when he rotated on surgery with me.

[leahcim]

You got a link to that midi if it's a free one?

Yeah, https://www.karadar.com/dictionary/chopin.html - although I just googled and grabbed the first hit, I was actually trying to get an mp3.

There's an mp3 here [The site should probably be in your other thread if it isn't already]  :-
https://www.pianosociety.com/index.php?id=35

[violinist]

Yeah, https://www.karadar.com/dictionary/chopin.html - although I just googled and grabbed the first hit, I was actually trying to get an mp3.

There's an mp3 here [The site should probably be in your other thread if it isn't already]  :-
https://www.pianosociety.com/index.php?id=35

I heard that .mp3 from pianosociety.  A couple of glaringly miss readings on the notes I think.  Anyway, I think I got a better .mp3 coming out in a few weeks.  Stay tuned for my perfected nocturne!

[gaer]

I just printed out the music.  Here's the .pdf file:

https://www.sheetmusicarchive.net/compositions_b/noct72_1.pdf

Late question: who edited it? There are some VERY questionable changes in this music. The last measure has an extra note (B) that I can't find in any other edition.

Gary

[_tyro]

Late question: who edited it? There are some VERY questionable changes in this music.

I was going to ask that.  I have the Joseffy(1915) edition, and the phrasing is very different. 

There's something else bothering me.  All the recordings -- Violinist, Rubenstein, and pretty much everyone else -- play the accompaniment  sort of alla breve (six to the half note).  Both the pdf file and my old edition show common time, and Joseffy even marks the bass as four triplets to the measure.   It does make an enormous difference to how it sounds. So does the tempo.  Both pdf file and my edition have a metronome marking of (quarter note) = 69, which gives a much more flowing sound than any of the recordings I've heard.  Has anyone tried playing it that way?  Any comments?


Violinist -- Thanks so much for starting this.  It's really fun.  Also your  recordings in the audition room are very nice.  If I ever figure out how to use my mics, I'll try to upload what I think the score is telling me to do to show how it's different.

[gaer]

I was going to ask that.  I have the Joseffy(1915) edition, and the phrasing is very different. 

I actually took my Joseffy editions and threw them in the garbage. I'm not kidding. Bar 2 through 5 is one phrase, not four. The left hand is shown phrased in groups of three, not six.

Joseffy took Chopin's music and COMPLETELY changed the phrasing in everything. I like the Palmer edition because it contains some very good ideas and tries to stay very close to the sources, but Palmer could be very inflexible, so I also like the old Mikuli edition (Schirmer), which has by far the best fingering too!

But the tempo indication agrees with other editions. You will tie your fingers into knots following Joseffy's fingerings, and that's the other huge problem.

Gary

[violinist]

Late question: who edited it? There are some VERY questionable changes in this music. The last measure has an extra note (B) that I can't find in any other edition.

Gary

I don't know what edition.  I was wondering myself.  I got it from www.sheetmusicarchive.net

so it's public domain.  I've noticed some weird notes. I wonder if anyone has a link to another version/edition of this piece online.  I don't have much music in the form of books for the piano.

I noticed that a lot of notes are broken up (octaves) which I've never heard in the recordings that I've heard of pro-pianists playing.  Thanks for looking at the music.  You're quite the authority on this.

[violinist]

Violinist -- Thanks so much for starting this.  It's really fun.  Also your  recordings in the audition room are very nice.  If I ever figure out how to use my mics, I'll try to upload what I think the score is telling me to do to show how it's different.

I can't wait to hear your views on this masterpiece!  Thanks so much for helping me learn about this piece!  Good luck with the mics.  I wish I had more time to figure out all this recording technology.   It has been a struggle for me as well.  Any free time I get, I just want to be playing the piano... not necesarily recording it.

[violinist]

https://www.piano.ru/scores/chopin/chopin-noc-02.pdf

This is a about 32 pages of Chopin Nocturnes.  The Op. 72 #1 is on Pages 30 to 32.

Another edition.  Might conform more to the "standard" that Gaer talks about. 

I'm going to look at both editions and pick out the best parts of both.  The fingerings are also much different.

Hopefully this helps us learn this piece on our own here.

I wonder if Ada had her lesson and got in trouble for learning something different.