OC Computertized Recording Project

[Etude]

The first thing we need to do is determine which movements we are all doing.

Before that, can everyone who wishes to be involved "sign" here and state which notation program they have, as if they have a particularly weak one such as NWC, it may limit their capabilities to create the files.

Constitution of OC, followed by the participant currently up for the movement (may change a bit at some points, due to more or less participants being involved, software limitations, or preferences):

Introito: JCarey
Preludio Corale: Etude
Fuga I: Prometheus
Fantasia: JCarey (finished)
Fuga II: Prometheus

Variations: Etude
Cadenza I: Etude
Fuga III: Prometheus

Toccata: JCarey
Adagio: JCarey
Passacaglia: JCarey
Cadenza II: boliverallmon
Fuga IV: Etude
Coda-Stretta: JCarey

[JCarey]

Add my name to the Passacaglia, please. 

(I could also do the Preludio Corale, but only if nobody else is interested.)

[Etude]

Done

As for the Preludio Corale, yes we'll see if anyone else wants to do it, you've already got a lot of OC.

[prometheus]

I'll start out with Fugue I only. But how should I do this? Just add the notes in Finale 2005 just notes only? On the same number of staves and the same place as on the score? And then Carey can import in into GPO and add dynamics?

When adding different parts in Finale you use different colours. But is there a good way to mark a subject or countersubject? That will probably be helpful.

[JCarey]

I'll start out with Fugue I only. But how should I do this? Just add the notes in Finale 2005 just notes only? On the same number of staves and the same place as on the score? And then Carey can import in into GPO and add dynamics?

Try to make your version identical to the score, every detail. It's time-consuming, but necessary.

When adding different parts in Finale you use different colours. But is there a good way to mark a subject or countersubject? That will probably be helpful.

Hmm... what's wrong with black for subject and red for countersubject?

[Ruro]

Problemas here, I am actually on a section of the Cadenza II where it requires Quintuplets (y'know, number |--5--| over a section of notes to be played in one beat I think?), and my program doesn't support it O_o

Neither does is support the easy tactic composers use in the scores which I keep having to spend ages on, where they write a Semibreve, and loads of quavers whilst they are supposed to be playing, NOT happening in this software... I have to split the Semibreve into 8 Quavers sometimes!

Anyway, besides that annoying thing, and that problem... one more thing to hack your brains...

Since this is more like a "word processing" program for Notation, I cannot manually draw the long:      >    or    <    over series of notes and stuff O_o I was hoping someone could fill them in for me if I don't manage, but unless you have noteworthy, I guess my efforts may be what you summarize as:

GUTTED ¬_¬

As for the mention of Finale, if you have the free version, don't even try coding it in, hell you can't even export as a midi O_o Although I'm sure you do know what your doing

And on a final note, perhaps anyone knows a great notation program capable of these complex operations, and doesn't require money or illegal action to fully utilize ^_^;;

EDIT: After reading what we are trying to accomplish, I don't think I'm even reliable enough to do this O_o For myself was enough... lol, I wouldn't be suprised if I made a mistake somewhere already, despite my great confidence I got it right :/

EDIT AGAIN: Or I won't let everyone down, lol *continues*

[Etude]

I'll start out with Fugue I only. But how should I do this? Just add the notes in Finale 2005 just notes only? On the same number of staves and the same place as on the score? And then Carey can import in into GPO and add dynamics?

When adding different parts in Finale you use different colours. But is there a good way to mark a subject or countersubject? That will probably be helpful.

At the end of the day, the only thing that will be there is the sound, so I don't know if colour-coding the themes is neccessary, unless I misunderstood your post.

You should enter the notes yes, but bring out (using louder dynamics) the subjects, involving equal treatment of the four forms (the Original, Retrograde, Inversion, and Retrograde Inversion).
Take time away from the subjects occasionaly to bring out the countersubjects.  There are a few simultaneous statements of the subject in the Fugue, I think the best thing to do would be to bring out the subject that falls between the solid bar-lines.  If there are any exceptions, just choose one.  And chose a good, slow tempo, and take notice of the expression marks, and dynamics.  Make sure you understand every Italian term he uses.  I think the opening expression:  "Sommessamente" means "Submitedly" but I could be wrong.


I'm adding your name to the list under Fuga I.

Good luck!

[Etude]

Problemas here, I am actually on a section of the Cadenza II where it requires Quintuplets (y'know, number |--5--| over a section of notes to be played in one beat I think?), and my program doesn't support it O_o

Neither does is support the easy tactic composers use in the scores which I keep having to spend ages on, where they write a Semibreve, and loads of quavers whilst they are supposed to be playing, NOT happening in this software... I have to split the Semibreve into 8 Quavers sometimes!

Anyway, besides that annoying thing, and that problem... one more thing to hack your brains...

Since this is more like a "word processing" program for Notation, I cannot manually draw the long:      >    or    <    over series of notes and stuff O_o I was hoping someone could fill them in for me if I don't manage, but unless you have noteworthy, I guess my efforts may be what you summarize as:

GUTTED ¬_¬

As for the mention of Finale, if you have the free version, don't even try coding it in, hell you can't even export as a midi O_o Although I'm sure you do know what your doing

And on a final note, perhaps anyone knows a great notation program capable of these complex operations, and doesn't require money or illegal action to fully utilize ^_^;;

Oh, D@mn, I forgot about the quintuplets.  Check www.noteworthysoftware.com at the forums.  They're pretty pathetic, but they might have a way to get round this somewhere in the history of the forum.  It will probably involve some calculation with CAREFUL tempo alterations.  It's amazing how much sh*t you have to do to get round the shortcomings of NWC.

Good Luck!

[JCarey]

I posted this on Piano Chat:

This what I suggest. We all have about an equal amount to do. I've taken most of the small movements and one large one. Etude has taken one huge movement and the first cadenza. I would recommend that Etude also does either the 3rd or 4th fugue as well and the Preludio Corale. Prometheus should do the first 3 fugues, and the 4th, that is, if Etude doesn't want to do it.

Introito: JCarey
Preludio Corale: Etude
Fuga I: Prometheus
Fantasia: JCarey (finished)
Fuga II: Prometheus

Variations: Etude
Cadenza I: Etude
Fuga III: Prometheus

Toccata: JCarey
Adagio: JCarey (I'm only taking this one because I've gotten quite a bit done on it)
Passacaglia: JCarey
Cadenza II: Ruro
Fuga IV: Etude or Prometheus
Coda-Stretta: JCarey

Is this all right?

[prometheus]

Well, I am not a Finale expert. The only way to add totally independend rhythm in Finale, that I know of, is using black, red, green and blue colours using the bottem-left numbers.

Also, using the expression tool, I don't know how I can give an individual voice a subtle volume boost. I wrote an exposition of a Sorabji-like fugue myself and I really tried to add some dynamics. But I couldn't get subtle crescendos and using Fortissimo etc and the piece instantly becomes very loud (or soft). I never really understood how these dynamics can be applied to once voice only.

I looked at the first fugue. It seems there are two kinds of measures. The normal ones, each with a statement of the subject, either complete or incomplete. And every once in a while a short measure with no thematic material. It seems like a connecting measure.

Also, don't pin me down on those other fugues. Ill start off with number one. I should spend my time on composing myself, which I haven't done for the last week or so. I need some completed stuff for auditions.

[Etude]

Neither does is support the easy tactic composers use in the scores which I keep having to spend ages on, where they write a Semibreve, and loads of quavers whilst they are supposed to be playing, NOT happening in this software... I have to split the Semibreve into 8 Quavers sometimes!

Try using "layers", unless you're already doing that, and I don't understand your problem.  Sorry.

Since this is more like a "word processing" program for Notation, I cannot manually draw the long:      >    or    <    over series of notes and stuff O_o I was hoping someone could fill them in for me if I don't manage, but unless you have noteworthy, I guess my efforts may be what you summarize as:

GUTTED ¬_¬

The look of the notation does NOT[/b] matter!  Just use normal Cresc. and Dim.  expressions in the software.  In the end it's going to be an mp3, where you can't even SEE the notation!

I posted this on Piano Chat:

This what I suggest. We all have about an equal amount to do. I've taken most of the small movements and one large one. Etude has taken one huge movement and the first cadenza. I would recommend that Etude also does either the 3rd or 4th fugue as well and the Preludio Corale. Prometheus should do the first 3 fugues, and the 4th, that is, if Etude doesn't want to do it.

Introito: JCarey
Preludio Corale: Etude
Fuga I: Prometheus
Fantasia: JCarey (finished)
Fuga II: Prometheus

Variations: Etude
Cadenza I: Etude
Fuga III: Prometheus

Toccata: JCarey
Adagio: JCarey (I'm only taking this one because I've gotten quite a bit done on it)
Passacaglia: JCarey
Cadenza II: Ruro
Fuga IV: Etude or Prometheus
Coda-Stretta: JCarey

Is this all right?

No problem with me!  

[Ruro]

omg, I was happily spending my spare time to do this (I have work and college), and now I feel so bloomin pressured, lol.

Anyway, as for the quintuplets, original notes times 1.20 will equate to it, but that's a friggin toughy to do... fair few quins :/ Assuming I have about 2/3 weeks to finish this (despite I have 1 1/2 pages left), I can do it, then NO pressure, and PLENTY of time to add all these friggin extra notes correctly :/

EDIT: Re-edit my edit, tempo... tempo.. yes... tempo... O_o

[Etude]

Well, I am not a Finale expert. The only way to add totally independend rhythm in Finale, that I know of, is using black, red, green and blue colours using the bottem-left numbers.

Do you mean the voices?  I thought you were on about colour-coding the parts, but when you have different voices per stave, in sibelius at least, the highlighted colour changes for the voice.

Also, using the expression tool, I don't know how I can give an individual voice a subtle volume boost. I wrote an exposition of a Sorabji-like fugue myself and I really tried to add some dynamics. But I couldn't get subtle crescendos and using Fortissimo etc and the piece instantly becomes very loud (or soft). I never really understood how these dynamics can be applied to once voice only.

If you can't get a cresc. on one voice , write all voices on different staves.  It might get confusing, but I did it for the Coda-Stretta, in NWC.  If Finale is similar to Sibelius, you just right click after you place the expression and click on one of the dynamic markings - F, FF, FFF, MP, etc...

[Etude]

omg, I was happily spending my spare time to do this (I have work and college), and now I feel so bloomin pressured, lol.

Anyway, as for the quintuplets, original notes times 1.20 will equate to it, but that's a friggin toughy to do... fair few quins :/ Assuming I have about 2/3 weeks to finish this (despite I have 1 1/2 pages left), I can do it, then NO pressure, and PLENTY of time to add all these friggin extra notes correctly :/

Don't feel pressured!  Take your time with it.  No one's in a rush, it could be years before JP's recording!

You have as much time as it takes!  Please don't try to rush it in 2/3 weeks.  Make it the best you can.

Good luck

[prometheus]

Well, if someone can explain a good way to do it with Finale, please do. I already made a few custum F's FF's mF's mP's because the difference between them was so big. Maybe I should look into it again before I start. I am sure it can be done with Finale in some way.

[Etude]

Well, if someone can explain a good way to do it with Finale, please do. I already made a few custum F's FF's mF's mP's because the difference between them was so big. Maybe I should look into it again before I start. I am sure it can be done with Finale in some way.

I'm sure it can.  It's quite powerful (more so than NWC and you can specify SPECIFIC volumes in NWC).  You'll find I way, I'm sure, check the "help" section of the program for details, although in my experience these so called "help" sections are pretty useless for anything I need to know.   

EDIT: Just worked out how to do it in Sibelius

[Etude]

.

[Etude]

Most importantly:  make sure you use natural signs where needed according to Sorabji's rule:

"Accidentals hold good only for notes in front of which they stand, with the exceptions of repeated notes and tied notes."

as the traditional "accidentals have effect until the end of the bar" applies in notation software.

Use thoughtful pedalling in the file as well as you can.

[Ruro]

I hate to prolong this, but if I need to change the tempo to create the 5 to 4, and the 7 to 6(?)... then is there a simple maths calculation to it?

Sorry, but knowing how sound works (Sound levels to our ear QUICKLY get louder around 110 and up right?), is there anything like this I need to be aware of with the tempo? I can't imagine why, but I been racking my brains over notes to get these N-plets right, and I'm beginning to lose it! If I'm wrong then...

4 Notes Into 5 = Normal Tempo x 1.2

7 Notes Into 6 = Normal Tempo x 1.16 (Recurring, but Rounded)

By all means, if that is right (perhaps a calculation to simply done to be right), then... Booyah! Also I get to double check I'm my piece is gonna be perfect, like a computery thing should be

[Etude]

I hate to prolong this, but if I need to change the tempo to create the 5 to 4, and the 7 to 6(?)... then is there a simple maths calculation to it?

Sorry, but knowing how sound works (Sound levels to our ear QUICKLY get louder around 110 and up right?), is there anything like this I need to be aware of with the tempo? I can't imagine why, but I been racking my brains over notes to get these N-plets right, and I'm beginning to lose it! If I'm wrong then...

4 Notes Into 5 = Normal Tempo x 1.2

7 Notes Into 6 = Normal Tempo x 1.16 (Recurring, but Rounded)

By all means, if that is right (perhaps a calculation to simply done to be right), then... Booyah! Also I get to double check I'm my piece is gonna be perfect, like a computery thing should be

Did you check the NWC forum?  I remember seeing something about tuplets there once.  Maybe you can do a search.

[Ruro]

I did look indeed ^_^ Except they recommend the non perfect way; a triplet of quavers, followed by two more quavers, to create the same amount of time :/ Obviously though, each note won't be the exact value.
Mathemetically using the available notes down to a 64th (probably even the dotted version to gain the 128th), will NOT get me the exact desired results. Infact even if I used a double dotted one, not only is it complex, I think we might be walking in similar territory ANYWAY to "Finding numbers that divide into a prime number" :/

Anyway, the tempo method doesn't work (suprised they didn't mention it if it did), it's only one tempo per WHOLE piece, not per staff. In the end I think it boils down to:

1) I wait for a newer version of the program to be released (I hear they have been waiting for more then a tuplet option for AGES, even after endless requests) or..

2) We can live with imperfection :/ and have a tuplet of quavers, along with 2 quavers.

Unless there is a grandose option I have missed? ^_^;; It certainly is welcome!


As for the Math calculations btw, I wrote this up, and frankly it gets stupid:

1 - - - - - 2 - - - - - 3 - - - - - 4 - - - - - 5
1 - - - - - - - 2 - - - - - - - 3 - - - - - - - 4

  4/5 = 0.8

 1/4 (Quarter)
 1/8 (Eighth)         Half (Of the Quaver)
1/16 (Sixteenth)           Quarter
1/32 (Thirty Second)     Eighth
1/64 (Sixty Fourth)       Sixteenth

Oh, or 3) I give up! or...
4), Someone with a better program can open this and finish it :/ I could still key in the remaining notes to save time, I don't really wanna give up

[Etude]

I did look indeed ^_^ Except they recommend the non perfect way; a triplet of quavers, followed by two more quavers, to create the same amount of time :/ Obviously though, each note won't be the exact value.
Mathemetically using the available notes down to a 64th (probably even the dotted version to gain the 128th), will NOT get me the exact desired results. Infact even if I used a double dotted one, not only is it complex, I think we might be walking in similar territory ANYWAY to "Finding numbers that divide into a prime number" :/

Anyway, the tempo method doesn't work (suprised they didn't mention it if it did), it's only one tempo per WHOLE piece, not per staff. In the end I think it boils down to:

1) I wait for a newer version of the program to be released (I hear they have been waiting for more then a tuplet option for AGES, even after endless requests) or..

2) We can live with imperfection :/ and have a tuplet of quavers, along with 2 quavers.

Unless there is a grandose option I have missed? ^_^;; It certainly is welcome!


As for the Math calculations btw, I wrote this up, and frankly it gets stupid:

See, NWC is just a waste of time.    I don't know what to suggest other than different software.   

An imperfect way, would be to vary the non-tuplet rhythms that occur at the same time as the 5=4's but this might audibly affect the sound.  I wouldn't advise this.

I recommend you sign up at the Piano Chat forums (the link is in my signature).  There is a thread for discussion of this project there as well.

[Ruro]

You know I moved from Finale Notepad 2005a to Noteworthy :/ lol, I'm not sure which I prefer... *sighs* Since there is no rush, I'll work it out another time, and pay a visit to your chat place at that time as well

I hope my effort isn't in vein... Thankyou for the continuing support!

[Etude]

Go and shout at the NWC people for us! 

[anodibu]

Make sure you understand every Italian term he uses.  I think the opening expression:  "Sommessamente" means "Submitedly" but I could be wrong.

Here you have a site with explanation of many Italian (and other) music terms: https://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/. Sorabji uses a lot of those terms, some of them aren't even listed in that site, like sommessamente.

[Etude]

Yes, I remember looking for the term 'Sommessamente' in that page, but to no avail, sadly.  I had to guess by removing 'amente' which I would think means "ly" like 'Leggiero' (Light) becomes 'Leggieramente' (Lightly).  So I tried 'Sommesso' at www.babelfish.altavista.com and it came up as: "submitted".  Add "ly" on the end (amente) and you get "Submittedly".  So I was sort of guessing, but it kind of makes sense.

I just tried "Sommessa" just in case, but it's the same.

[Etude]

Well, I've just been doing quite a bit of work on the theme of the variations. Sibelius is so ridiculous, the "rit" line has to be perfectly in line with the metronome marking or else the new tempo will occur immediately. So frustrating...

Overall, I'm doing quite well, although I feel dynamics might be a problem when I go to do them in a bit. And this is the theme! Imagine how long it will take for the actual variations! 
 

(I'm copying my posts from the OC Project thread at PC to the one here.  Makes sense.)

[arch0wl]

JCarey, can you please PM me any midis you finish? I realize this is going to be mp3 by the end of it, but a midi would be excellent and I'm guessing it's not too much effort to export it to midi had you already notated the whole thing XD

[JCarey]

JCarey, can you please PM me any midis you finish? I realize this is going to be mp3 by the end of it, but a midi would be excellent and I'm guessing it's not too much effort to export it to midi had you already notated the whole thing XD

Sure, no problem.

[perfect_pitch]

OK OK... I probably forgot to ask a really important question...

Has anyone EVER recorded the full piece???

[pseudopianist]

Ogdon and Madge

[Etude]

Technically, just Ogdon.

[BoliverAllmon]

touche

[ahinton]

Technically, just Ogdon.

Yes, indeed - but just wait (as we all have to do - and as no one more than I wants to have to do any longer than necessary) for Jonathan Powell's forthcoming recording; as has been stated in this forum and elsewhere on several occasions, the sheer textual accuracy, lucidity, logic, emotional thrust and sense of dramatic shape of OC has undoubtedly never been so effectively and compellingly presented than it has by Mr Powell - and I do not at all seek to undermine John Ogdon in so saying. Indeed, I have not a shred of doubt that John Ogdon himself would be praising Mr Powell to the skies had he only survived to hear what Mr Powell has achieved with this work that meant so very much to him and with (and by) which he lived so much of his all too short life.

Best,

Alistair

[Etude]

Yes, indeed - but just wait (as we all have to do - and as no one more than I wants to have to do any longer than necessary) for Jonathan Powell's forthcoming recording; as has been stated in this forum and elsewhere on several occasions, the sheer textual accuracy, lucidity, logic, emotional thrust and sense of dramatic shape of OC has undoubtedly never been so effectively and compellingly presented than it has by Mr Powell - and I do not at all seek to undermine John Ogdon in so saying. Indeed, I have not a shred of doubt that John Ogdon himself would be praising Mr Powell to the skies had he only survived to hear what Mr Powell has achieved with this work that meant so very much to him and with (and by) which he lived so much of his all too short life.

Best,

Alistair

Yes, waiting is, as you said, something we will all have to do, although hopefully I will be attend a performance of OC by Mr. Powell as soon as possible, providing he returns with it to the UK. 

[arch0wl]

is this still happening?

[Etude]

Yes, but we haven't discussed it in a while.

[pseudopianist]

Good to know. I was about to PM one of you ask about it. I'm very intressed in this project. :D:D:D You guys have my full support.

[Etude]

Glad to hear it, Thanks!

[arch0wl]

What progress has been made? I am excited about this as well.

[Etude]

Last time it was discussed, JCarey had finished the Fantasia, Introito, was a good way through the Toccata and has done the 1st variation of the Passacaglia.  I'd done the theme of the variations, and a bit of the 1st variation, almost a page of the fourth fugue, and half a page of the 1st Cadenza, but with my laptop being broken I haven't been able to do much more work until now.

[JCarey]

Well I've been quite busy with commissions and the likes. However, I'm not only working on the OC - my parents recently sent me some more Sorabji scores as a Christmas gift, among them are the first quintet and the 2nd piano concerto. All of these are quite interesting, especially the quintet.

Anyway, I'm still working on the OC, have no fear. I'd like to finish the toccata, hopefully soon. However, there are a lot of projects that I still have to finish as well (including Christmas shopping!).

If anyone wants to discuss this piece without having to worry about being insulted for it, please join Piano Chat.

Good day.

[pseudopianist]

Will there be any midis or mpå3s posted of what you have done? Like the introtio or the first variation of the Variationmovement

[arch0wl]

Update?

I would prefer mp3s accompanied by midis. The best of both worlds, after all!

[Dazzer]

as well a sequenced. perhaps... garritan's steinway?

[I Love Xenakis]

Actually Powell has unofficially released a video of the OC, if anyone is interested.


Well, his producer did; not sure if that had Powell's input or not.  I know a couple people on this forum have it but I won't disclose names.  Maybe if you just guess the right few people you can beg for it from us XD

[JCarey]

Actually Powell has unofficially released a video of the OC, if anyone is interested.


Well, his producer did; not sure if that had Powell's input or not.  I know a couple people on this forum have it but I won't disclose names.  Maybe if you just guess the right few people you can beg for it from us XD

Wait a minute here... you have seen that video?

[ryguillian]

Actually, it's only a rumor that this video exists. Nobody can get it. Not even Marc-André Hamelin.

—Ryan

[JCarey]

Actually, it's only a rumor that this video exists. Nobody can get it. Not even Marc-André Hamelin.

—Ryan

That's a relief - I was about to get down on my hands and knees!

I have a difficult time believing, however, that, of all of Powell's performances, nobody has snuck a tape recorder in.

[I Love Xenakis]

Actually, it's only a rumor that this video exists. Nobody can get it. Not even Marc-André Hamelin.

—Ryan

Actually this is just Ryan being jealous that I got it before he did.