The reason why Ingolf Wunder was eliminated from the Chopin Competition.

[cherub_rocker1979]

*This is an article from the Warsaw Competition

Bad Notes, Bad Luck

18 October 2005

During a press conference after the announcement of the second stage results, someone asked about Ingolf Wunder from Austria who did not make it into the finals. Jury member Ewa Pobłocka spoke: "I cheered him on. I even talked to him after the performance because he played two wrong notes in the Andante Spianato. He had a mistake in his notation and he immediately corrected it. But unfortunately, he didn't succeed. The Competition Regulations are strict: the total sum of votes of the whole jury decides." Piotr Paleczny and Andrzej Jasiński, sitting behind the presidium table covered with green cloth, agreed. "And other competitions worldwide have already started to apply our system," added Jasiński.

Here is the video of Wunder's performance of the Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante:

https://s45.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3B233N8PV7WSM15Q01BDMR3YRW

[sonatainfsharp]

Personally, I think it's kinda freaky when someone can play an entire audition/recital without missing a single note.

[thalbergmad]

Accuracy seems to be more important than artistry sometimes.

[zheer]

ONO i hope tha isnt the man who played the chopin ballad and Etudeop10num2 + the winter Etude, he was great probably the best.

[cherub_rocker1979]

ONO i hope tha isnt the man who played the chopin ballad and Etudeop10num2 + the winter Etude, he was great probably the best.

You mean him?https://www.konkurs.chopin.pl/gfx/uploaded/wunder_ingolf24.jpg

Yes, he is the one who played the Ballade no. 1 and the Etudes op. 10 no. 2 and op. 25 no. 11.  His playing was the best technically and the most unique.

[Teddybear]

... Who are these people, telling you that music is about playing the right notes?

T

[cherub_rocker1979]

... Who are these people, telling you that music is about playing the right notes?

T

I never said music was about playing all the right notes.  I just posted an article from the Warsaw Competition that I found on the internet and I said that they shouldn't have eliminated Ingolf Wunder because I thought he was the best.

[lisztisforkids]

This is outrageous! Just because of 2 wrong notes??? What if Horowitz played and played 2 wrong notes??, what if  Hamelin played??. 2 wrong notes does not mean that the person that played it correctly has a better technique than you. 

[prometheus]

A friend of mine would have laughed so hard at this if I told him this story. This is elitism as far as you can take it. He didn't play the piece the same way as their 'correct' edition? Isn't a pianist allowed to play the piece any way he wants? What if someone plays an excellent improvisation on 10/1 instead of the actual piece? I bet they would stop that person playing.

[thracozaag]

*This is an article from the Warsaw Competition

Bad Notes, Bad Luck

18 October 2005

During a press conference after the announcement of the second stage results, someone asked about Ingolf Wunder from Austria who did not make it into the finals. Jury member Ewa Pobłocka spoke: "I cheered him on. I even talked to him after the performance because he played two wrong notes in the Andante Spianato. He had a mistake in his notation and he immediately corrected it. But unfortunately, he didn't succeed. The Competition Regulations are strict: the total sum of votes of the whole jury decides." Piotr Paleczny and Andrzej Jasiński, sitting behind the presidium table covered with green cloth, agreed. "And other competitions worldwide have already started to apply our system," added Jasiński.

  This is absolutely ludicrous; it's a piano competition, not a musicological conference.

koji

[stevie]

he misread his score, it isnt about mistakes in the performance

although he did hit many wrong notes in his performance, this was due to his abandom and bravura, and it was incredibly exciting.

i emailed him and he told me he still has alot to learn, he does, and we all do, but i hope he doesnt lose this spirit and abandon, he was a breath of fresh air.

[da jake]

Pedantry 1, Artistry 0

[lostinidlewonder]

I think it is a little absurd to mark someone down for single note discrepencies from the score. If it happens more than a few times then I guess it poses a problem, but if its just a slight glitch who gives, really?

I really seriously doubt the judges ability to identify good and betterplayers  by just listening to one single note mistake. It probably makes up 0.02% of the score thus you are making it mean so much to you to push you to eliminate a person doing that error from from the competition. Please!!

Recordings of Horowitz where his fingers hit 2 keys instead of 1 now and then are still the most legendary recordings ever and continue to inspire millions of people all the time. I feel sad for competitions who place so much focused attention on note accuracy. Yes be strict, you can't have someone playing blunders which disrupt the sound quality, but don't be obsessive about it!!

[da jake]

I agree completely. Chopin himself would probably have hit a few wrong notes in the performances of his own masterpieces.

PS: your quote is quite apt!

[arensky]

Recordings of Horowitz where his fingers hit 2 keys instead of 1 now and then are still the most legendary recordings ever and continue to inspire millions of people all the time.

yer darn tootin' 

[arensky]

This is outrageous! Just because of 2 wrong notes??? What if Horowitz played and played 2 wrong notes??, what if  Hamelin played??. 2 wrong notes does not mean that the person that played it correctly has a better technique than you. 

Well Hamelin doesn't play wrong notes, but I heard Horowitz (live with my own f****n' ears play many wrong notes; I would not replace them for anything. And Arrau, Perhaia, Serkin, not Cherkassky, though, he was more like Hamelin; THEY did Shura in because he was "archaic', a "throwback", etc.......

Alright people...see what's wrong with the whole f****n' system? If it isn't obvious to you by now it never will be . This is why many people feel "classical" music is dead!

TAKE BACK YOUR MUSIC!!!!!

NOW, DAMN IT!!!!!

Do you want sterile dentist's office piano or MUSIC THAT'S ALIVE!!!!!???

It's for you to decide......

[cherub_rocker1979]

Well Hamelin doesn't play wrong notes, but I heard Horowitz (live with my own f****n' ears play many wrong notes; I would not replace them for anything. And Arrau, Perhaia, Serkin, not Cherkassky, though, he was more like Hamelin; THEY did Shura in because he was "archaic', a "throwback", etc.......

Alright people...see what's wrong with the whole f****n' system? If it isn't obvious to you by now it never will be . This is why many people feel "classical" music is dead!

TAKE BACK YOUR MUSIC!!!!!

NOW, *** IT!!!!!

Do you want sterile dentist's office piano or MUSIC THAT'S ALIVE!!!!!???

It's for you to decide......

Hate to burst your bubble, but Hamelin plays wrong notes too.

[tocca]

I didn't hear all the performances, so i can't compare, but i did hear some of Wunder's playing and it is a bit puzzling that he didn't do better.
I somehow doubth they'd vote someone out just because of some wrong notes, it sounds like an excuse to me!

If it really is true, then i really think that Pianocompetitions has gone past the limit. It's a music competition, not a typing competition!
Competitions in music has always been a problem though, i think it would be better if the judges couldn't see the performers and never knew who was playing. Only judge the music that was played.
But, it has to be a show too, so there we are...

[prometheus]

It isn't that he made a mistake or played wrong notes. He played all the right notes. He just played another version, not the 'official one'. Surely all pianists in the finale played more wrong notes and mistakes than those two notes, including Wunder himself. I guess playing from the 'right' edition is more important than how you play it. So Koji nails the point.


But then again, he didn't not make the finale because he played from a wrong edition. He was eliminated because of the judges votes/marks. How can he be eliminated because of the wrong edition? You could just as well say someone else did make it because judge X gave her/him five extra points for a very well played sonata or etude. Or did someone give him a 5/100 because of this?

[thracozaag]

  And any chopinist worth his salt (one would think the POLISH judges would be aware of this for god's sake) knows that there is no "definitive" chopin edition--he was constantly changing his mind about things (my god, these composers are actually human beings?)

koji

[spirithorn]

  And any chopinist worth his salt (one would think the POLISH judges would be aware of this for god's sake) knows that there is no "definitive" chopin edition--he was constantly changing his mind about things (my god, these composers are actually human beings?)

koji

Well said, and absolutely true.  To cite just one example, I can play Op.10, No.1 at least three different ways, and have the "text" to back it up.  If they're going to play that game, why not specify a single edition for all contestants to use for all pieces?

[BoliverAllmon]

I think they do specify which edition.

[stevie]

while were on the subject, check out these-

https://www.ingolfwunder.at/recordings/Brahms_Paganini_Variationen_Bd_1.mp3

https://www.ingolfwunder.at/recordings/Liszt_Ungarische_Rhapsodie_No.6.mp3

https://www.ingolfwunder.at/recordings/Chopin_Etude_op.10_No.4.mp3

[finn magnus]

Maybe........maybe the judges didn't give him points because they didn't like his way of playing the piece. This depends on the judges. The judges represent men/women who are experts in the instrument, BUT maybe the judges only focus at the pianistic and technicall aspects and not at the musicality. I know this is a problem because we have tried this at my School.

The examinator was in the begining a person who played the same instrument at the exam as the student. The student then often complained about the grade. This is regulary singers 

Then the school tried examinators that did not play the same instrument. And it was a better result. Happier student 

Remember that judges is not always the audience's opinion. Isn't it the audiance we shall play for? Isn't our mission to play a way that most people like it, or is it just for special people who has studied many years?

Is the two-wrong-notes-mistake the judges arguments for that Ingold didn't make it to the finals? 

[arensky]

Hate to burst your bubble, but Hamelin plays wrong notes too.

No bursting, I have never heard him live but he strikes me as the type of pianist who RARELY hits a wrong note, like Michelangeli, Hofmann or Gould. Besides he is always in complete control, which makes the wrong notes inconsequential IMO.

[arensky]

Well said, and absolutely true.  To cite just one example, I can play Op.10, No.1 at least three different ways, and have the "text" to back it up.  If they're going to play that game, why not specify a single edition for all contestants to use for all pieces?

What edition did he use?

[BoliverAllmon]

those recordings aren't too shabby at all.

[rimv2]

while were on the subject, check out these-

https://www.ingolfwunder.at/recordings/Brahms_Paganini_Variationen_Bd_1.mp3

https://www.ingolfwunder.at/recordings/Liszt_Ungarische_Rhapsodie_No.6.mp3

https://www.ingolfwunder.at/recordings/Chopin_Etude_op.10_No.4.mp3

Shexshay

This stuff turns the average person off.

Classical music already has a rep of being snobby and pretentious. Let's go make it worse

5/100 points to one of the greatest pianists in the world. That would mean that the average scores are around 20-40/100. That's assuming that the judge considers this a low score. Adjusting for the judge's assumption that this  is an average score with most score being around 4-7/100, it would be fair to assume that the point scale is actually out of 10 rather than one hundred. Therefore the score was actually 5/8-10.

Ironically this is not the case, and the judge with the audacity to give such a score should be shot with a recycled bullet and have the cost of the bullet and burial (in a shallow and unmarked pit with dozens of other bodies) be paid by her immediate family. 

Ironically, this world is not so just

[gaer]

  And any chopinist worth his salt (one would think the POLISH judges would be aware of this for god's sake) knows that there is no "definitive" chopin edition--he was constantly changing his mind about things (my god, these composers are actually human beings?)

koji

But this is what happens when you turn music-making into a competition. In my opinion you end up with mostly "little minds" judging great talent, and the rules just keep on getting more and more stupid.

If you look at Chopin's pedal marks, or what has been recorded as his pedal marks (ped *) and then look how they are literally followed by some people, you are already in bizarro world. The best musicians on the planet are not in agreement about which trills start on the principle note or upper auxiliary, which appogiaturas are on the beat, which ones preceed the beat, etc.

And you hear phenominal players play the same trill in two (or 50) different ways, but it works in each fine performance.

I can understand how people get such fixed ideas—they don't know much. But how do they get to judge other people with such lack of imagination? <shaking head in puzzlement>

Gary

[Teddybear]

I never said music was about playing all the right notes.  I just posted an article from the Warsaw Competition that I found on the internet and I said that they shouldn't have eliminated Ingolf Wunder because I thought he was the best.

Uh, sorry, I was referring to the judges. It sounded like it's a big deal to them whether you make mistakes or not (I mean, TWO, for Heaven's sake). It's like not giving a Nobel because the book had a few typing errors.

T

[kriskicksass]

My teacher has a student preparing for the next Chopin Competition, and he's told me that their policy is that you can play from any edition, but it is preferable to play from either the Paderewski or the new Polish edition (its name escapes me at the moment). As horid as it is that he was excluded from the finals for two wrong notes, the judges were technically perfectly justified in their decision. 

[etudes]

My teacher has a student preparing for the next Chopin Competition, and he's told me that their policy is that you can play from any edition, but it is preferable to play from either the Paderewski or the new Polish edition (its name escapes me at the moment). As horid as it is that he was excluded from the finals for two wrong notes, the judges were technically perfectly justified in their decision. 

i think they forced everyone to play from jan ekier (the new polish edition) that you mentioned
btw compare Ekier edition with paderewski they are many different notes that are really change

[rockitman31]

Wunder is Austrian.   Hitler was Austrian.  Hitler ran over Poland.   Poles hate Austrians.

Enough said.

[rimv2]

Wunder is Austrian.   Hitler was Austrian.  Hitler ran over Poland.   Poles hate Austrians.

Enough said.

So the plot thickens

[BoliverAllmon]

russia invaded poland. I know a polish violist who despises Russians and she hasn't been in Poland since she was 5. I don't think Russian will ever win the comp. Shostakovich himself was eliminated in the first round. Most people around the time thought he should make the finals and had a good chance of winning.