Do you have a core sound ?

[m1469]

I actually have two questions.

1.  Do you have a core sound ? (the topic question). 

I have been thinking a lot about this and experimenting too, but, with voice, there is something called "the core voice" and that is something about using your voice from your core (I guess).  I am just thinking about whether we have something like this in piano, a sound that comes from the core of us.  And, if that were true, does it have a unique quality ? 

I know that people think people can have their own unique sound, but do you feel like you have found yours ?  And, if you have, how did you find it ?


2.  Is there a universal, professional pianist's sound ?

I went to see a teacher a little while ago who talked about a "universal sound" as though there is a sound out there that is professional and universal and that everyone striving to be professional should learn about and aim for.  Do you think this is true ?


Thanks for your time and thoughts,

m1469   

[ted]

1. Yes, but in my case it is spread across many styles and idioms. I cannot always sense it myself but others whose judgement I trust assert they can recognise it, even in my playing thirty and more years ago, long before I thought I had "found my voice".

Whatever its characteristics are, summarising them is not simple and probably best left to others as I don't fully understand what I do half the time. I speak here of creation, of course, not interpretation.

2. In the restricted realm of classical concert playing maybe, but for the whole field of piano playing almost certainly not.

[arensky]

I actually have two questions.

1.  Do you have a core sound ? (the topic question). 

I have been thinking a lot about this and experimenting too, but, with voice, there is something called "the core voice" and that is something about using your voice from your core (I guess).  I am just thinking about whether we have something like this in piano, a sound that comes from the core of us.  And, if that were true, does it have a unique quality ? 

Yes we all do we are unique individuals, it is like our musical fingerprint. It's how you can identify certain pianists on the radio without knowing who they are, it's their SOUND. That's what music is, and we all use it differently, the way we all speak (another communicative use of sound) individually and uniquely

I know that people think people can have their own unique sound, but do you feel like you have found yours ?  And, if you have, how did you find it ?

Yes, after letting a teacher sidetrack me. I've always been very sensitive to pure sound and  tone color, I'm one of those pianists who is very good at and revels in Debussy, Ravel, Scriabin, introspective Jazz and that sort of thing, although I have an eclectic all-encommpassing repertoire. My finger technique was always lacking though; I was at a loss for what to do after college (I was a performance major) when our Piano Literature teacher who taught and was head of piano at a State University 20 miles outside of the city took me under his wing; I took a few private lessons with him and he was able to explain things like finger positioning in Chopin Etudes and Mozart (Mozart is one of my great passions), and my playing immediately improved, it was like a door opened and the light flooded in; my fingers were great, nothing wrong with me any more!
Needless to say I soon had a Graduate Assistantship at"State University" . To make a long story short I was soon flying off to big competitions, and was a semi-finalist in a couple. Why didn't I do better? Because I had sacrificed MY CORE SOUND on the idol of finger technique! Sure my digital aparattus was working great but my sound had become dry, monochromatic and uninteresting because the progress in digital accuracy was not integrated into my pre-existing tone or SOUND. So I took all my eggs out of my old basket and put them in the new one, even though I now had two baskets...Around this time I fell out with the teacher and became disillusioned with academia and classical music in general. Unlike my snotty undergraduate school "State University" was primarily an education school, and had a Jazz program (high school band directors have to run big bands, almost every American Public High School has one). I had always improvised and played at Jazz, but I now decided that that I wanted to be a REAL Jazz Pianist, not some classical pregnant cat who plays ersatz Jazz. I dropped out of Grad School and cleared off the piano putting the scores in a closet, and scarcely looked at a note of printed music for about 5 or 6 months. And in finally discovering what MY piano style was like, doing what I did naturally, I (after I started up with classical again after a couple of years) finally learned how to make Chopin's or Beethoven's or Bach's clothes fit ME, instead of feeling like the suit didn't fit. Hope this analogy makes sense...so now I had my core sound again but my fingers worked! Now I was making money...but it's only been recently, the last 5 years or so that I've really been able to apply this to classical literature in it's broadest and most complete application; my core sound now works with Bach and Beethoven as well as Debussy,  Ravel, the Romantic composers and my Jazz.

2.  Is there a universal, professional pianist's sound ?

I went to see a teacher a little while ago who talked about a "universal sound" as though there is a sound out there that is professional and universal and that everyone striving to be professional should learn about and aim for.  Do you think this is true ?

No, we all sound differently ("fingerprint"). I think maybe what this teacher means is that there is a correct way to produce sound, and I agree with that. In Opera you have to project, and that requires a certain method of vocal or tone or SOUND production. This is true of any instrument, but the quality or nature of the correct sound is different with every individual; this is inescapable, it is the nature of all living things as we know them....

Thanks for your time and thoughts,

m1469   

You are welcome tiger lady! 

[m1469]

Ted, I am curious when you say that your sound is spread across many styles and idioms, do you mean that the total of them or that they as a package form "your core voice" ?  Or that in each of those styles you have a certain sound that you discern as your core voice ?

I suppose along those lines, I would think there is probably something that you inwardly experience as "you" when you are playing, which comes across as your core voice as it is expressed audibly.  Which leads nicely into my thoughts on what arensky has commented on.

Arensky, I find your experience to be very interesting to me.  I will start by saying that what you have stated toward the end of your post, regarding sound production is important and I would like to thank you for relating that back to Opera singing as it made a certain kind of perfect sense to me.  Yes, I suppose the core sound is about sound production and it's something that I can gather kinesthetic information about while I am singing.  So, I can really feel when I am singing from my core and when I am not.  I am not sure about how to go about finding that with my piano, but it is probably what I hunger after the most in my playing.

I find your analogy about having Chopin's and Beethoven's "clothes" to fit you to be very appealing to me.  It makes a lot of sense and I will admit that I often struggle with feeling like they do fit me.  And, it is not that I feel like I don't get the music or am truly incapable of playing it.  It is just that I feel tangled up in the ideas of needing to be true to the composer but also comfortable in my own skin, so to speak.

I would think that feeling comfortable in our own skin is perhaps a key to satisfying performance (and technique).  And, I find your point about getting caught up into the mechanics and substituting your core sound with all of that to be very apropos for me.  I am not sure I would have seen it as clearly as you mentioned, but I believe that's exactly what I have done in the past few years.  I think when I was in University, I probably discovered my core voice, and then I became (gratefully) more concentrated on the mechanics with a different teacher (I needed it too).  But, I am surely seeking with all of myself to experience my core sound and the mechanics as one solid package while I am playing the piano.  Perhaps it is simply what I seek in the experience most of all and more than anything else about playing (and then I would like to share with people from there).

I feel like until I truly feel comfortable in my own skin or until I know I am expereincing my core sound, I am not truly sharing much of anything with anybody.  I suppose I could be wrong, I don't know.

So, in thinking about what I have gathered from Ted in previous posts and so on, along with what you have said arensky, I am going to make a little summary of a possible path to discovering one's core sound :

I find it interesting that in both of your cases, improvistation and jazz have have played an important role.  I find it intersting also that nobody else has posted in talking strictly of Classical music.  It seems there is a definite element of needing to take matters into one's own hands.  Making a decision and then following that with regard to venturing into the piano world as an individual.  I suppose that kind of adventurous spirit requires a certain level of faith as well as courage in terms of dealing with what other people might think of you and what you may find on that particular road.

At this moment, I am now starting to see clearly a wall that seems to be stopping me in my endeavor to experience my core voice.  I am scared (for some reason) to find out what is "my style".  I am scared it will not end up being much of anything worth listening to.  I suppose for both of you, you either were never scared of this, faced it with courage, or could care less what others thought of you.

So, along these lines, I have another question for you both.  Do you feel there was a turning point of definition for you (It seems it was for you, arensky, and I wonder if in less precise ways, it was for you as well, Ted) ?  What kind of awareness caused the turning point ?  Or is it more something that one decides each day and every time you sit down to play ?

Thanks again, very much,

m1469 (the Tiger Lady )

[ted]

"Ted, I am curious when you say that your sound is spread across many styles and idioms, do you mean that the total of them or that they as a package form "your core voice" ?  Or that in each of those styles you have a certain sound that you discern as your core voice ?"

I mean something much simpler. It seems that whatever style I play in, indeed, even a seemingly original idiom, there exists a certain quality we shall call "Tedness", which other people familiar with a reasonable amount of my sound can detect at once. I was brought down to earth on this point not so long ago when I told a musical friend I had recently experienced a "turning point", as you put it, wherein I realised the nature of my own voice. He replied that he could quite easily recognise "Tedness" in my playing almost thirty years ago. "But that's always been there." he said, "It's nothing new !"

So I listened to some old tapes, none he had heard, and indeed, found all this stuff I had only just acknowledged at the conscious level was present in abundance back in 1978 ! Whether this augurs well or ill I haven't the least idea, but I have since been well and truly humbled about making weighty pronouncements on matters of personal voice, i.e. core sound !

The truth, it seems, is that I do not understand exactly what I am doing at all, but I am happy with that discovery.

Now as far as interpretation goes I have had rather odd, very complimentary, comments from musicians (only a few, but a few I respect) about my touch - the word "freshness" has been used several times. While all this is gratifying at a superficial level, I myself think, even know, that my interpretive playing is as rough as bags - sloppy might be a better description. So again there appears to be, even as far as physical playing is concerned, a "Tedness" quality which I have absolutely no idea about - I really don't, you know - I am not feigning naivety for effect.

So tell me and we'll both know - not much help, am I.

[Bob]

Yeah, I thought "voice question" when I saw the thread.  Good question though.

I believe there can be a core sound for piano.  I work for that idea.  But for piano, it would be the consistency of the movements that go into creating a tone.  Posture, weight into the keys, how each key is struck, how all the fingers and arms work together on individual notes to octaves to scales, how you personally voice and balance things, etc.


Professional sound -- Yes, good and consistent and no hesitation.  That's professional to me.  It sounds good and there's no thought of technique -- Technique is a given.  No hesitation, no question that the sound is what they meant.


I think part of a pianist's "sound" is their interpretation more.  The nuances might be more of a pianists sound that way.  For voice, the "sound" is more the timbre of their voice.


Do I have my own sound.  No.  I'm still working on it.  I do a routine -- It develops consistency and my "sound" over time.  I get better with daily use.  I don't question myself about what I can or can't do.  I know.



For Ted's #1, I would call that a composer's style or the composer's individual sound or voice.


For professional sound, I would also say... It's a piano.  It should sound like a piano -- Classical piano, jazz piano, pop piano, whatever... the professional sound for that style.  The way the notes are stuck as well as the the instrument and tuner side of it.


I never feel like I've ever finished a piece.  People talk about how the pianist is speaking, but I think some of that assumes what comes out of the instrument is what they want.  For me, I'm not sure.  I get caught up in the piece and details -- I suppose I change the way I listen, or even stop listening in some way while working on a piece.



ersatz Jazz?  I think I've heard that before.    It is quite hip.  Man.



Dang... wiped out.  I stopped reading at post 3 by m1469.

[arensky]

ersatz Jazz?  I think I've heard that before.    It is quite hip.  Man.



Dang... wiped out.  I stopped reading at post 3 by m1469.

No it's not! It's the Lawerence Welk Show or worse! S'okay. I'm wiped out too....

[m1469]

Dang... wiped out. 

I'm wiped out too....

oh. wow.  poor guys  :-  Well thanks very much for your responses, you three !  I guess it's nap time now, *hands out cookies and milk, softly hums a lullaby* 



m1469

[whynot]

Are there any cookies left?

"Core sound" in singing isn't a reference to the person's deep inner core, although I know what you mean by that personal core.  The expression is about maintaining vocal integrity--a distillation of energy and sound.  It gets brought up when singers, in trying to sing softly or in approaching register changes, let go of their real voice and either choke, wisp or spread the sound instead.  I think this idea could certainly apply to other instruments.

I like the second question, but I disagree with the teacher who tried to persuade you about a universal sound.  Certainly there are sounds that are more and less professional in quality for every voice and instrument, but not THE one, the only professional sound.  I have found that, when people make big sweeping statements like that, they don't actually mean "the" professional sound, but rather "my" professional sound.  And unless the person is truly drop-dead brilliant, my <baloney> radar goes "whoop whoop" when a teacher says his is the only way.  Even with the brilliant, his way is not the only way, but I certainly want to hear what such a person has to say.  But I don't think you're saying that Mr./Ms. Universal was in that crazily brilliant category.  And there's always the proof-in-the-pudding test:  did this person play for you and let you hear this universal sound?  if so, was it all that?  If he (?) made an incredible sound that made you sit up and say, "What was that?", then it would be worth pursuing.  If not, not.   

This topic reminds me of two comments given in separate master classes by two voice teachers whom I tremendously respect.  You will appreciate this, because it's about two conflicting truths that are both, well, true.  The first teacher demonstrated two very different types of singing-- one very clear and classical, the other breathy and sort of warm-jazzy.  He asked the students to vote for "right and wrong" sounds and which they preferred.  He wrapped up the discussion by saying, "There are no bad sounds, only inappropriate sounds for a particular genre or piece."  Flash forward to the second teacher who demonstrated a Jerry Lewis-type "ladeeees..." sound that is often used by tenors in mid-high range, and then he said, "That is a BAD SOUND.  Never use that sound!" Even though these events occurred separately, I remember them side by side, like a split movie screen, and I go back and forth:  "There are no bad sounds."  "That is a BAD sound." 

Anyway, somehow I thought you would enjoy that.

No instrument is capable of all the colors of the human voice.  That's what makes singing so special.  But pianists can develop a much greater palette of sounds than many do, adding more and more colors over the years as we grow musically.   I think the goal isn't to have "the" sound, but instead to have ALL sounds.  In two ways specifically:  1. to eventually have all (or many) sounds in our musical imagination or aesthetic ideas/ideals, and 2. to have those sounds at our fingertips--the physical skills to make precisely the sounds we want to make. 

There, what do you think?

[abell88]

I think the goal isn't to have "the" sound, but instead to have ALL sounds.  In two ways specifically:  1. to eventually have all (or many) sounds in our musical imagination or aesthetic ideas/ideals, and 2. to have those sounds at our fingertips--the physical skills to make precisely the sounds we want to make.

Brilliant!...now how do I get them?

[m1469]

No instrument is capable of all the colors of the human voice.  That's what makes singing so special.  But pianists can develop a much greater palette of sounds than many do, adding more and more colors over the years as we grow musically.   I think the goal isn't to have "the" sound, but instead to have ALL sounds.  In two ways specifically:  1. to eventually have all (or many) sounds in our musical imagination or aesthetic ideas/ideals, and 2. to have those sounds at our fingertips--the physical skills to make precisely the sounds we want to make. 

There, what do you think?

Well, this is very meaningful to me, your paragraph here.  I sometimes forget to carry over certain things I believe in from one place to another, and you have reminded me of something that I already strive for in a particular area of piano playing, but had not made the connection yet. 

I also have a deeper appreciation for voice now after reading your post, as it turns out.

What do I think ?  Well, I think I feel like I can breathe again... he he    I think you are right, and as abell said, brilliant.


Thanks for your response,

m1469

[whynot]

Thank you for the nice comments (blush).  How to get them?  Heck, I don't know!  If I accidentally figure it out, I will post my method!  Good luck to us all.  Cheers--

[maryruth]

I do think we all have our own sound eventually.  I must have one myself, though I don't know what it is, but I often have people say things like, "Oh, it was you playing today...I thought I recognized those fingers..."   Or,  "I knew it was you playing when I walked in...you sound different then the other pianists..." 

I always like to hear that people "recognized" me in my playing