Smaller Steinway versus Bigger Yamaha Grand.

[Axtremus]

I often heard it said that when it comes to grand pianos, "bigger is better." And after spending two half-days in a Yamaha showroom trying out everything from C1 to C7, that seems to bear out, especially at the bass registers.

My next stop is to hit a Steinway showroom and try out Model S through D. So I will answer my own question to some extent in due time. In the mean time, I would like you opinions on how a BIG Yamaha would stack up against a SMALLER Steinway. (a Yamaha C6 at 6 ft. 11 in. compared to a 5 ft. 7 in. Steinway, for example, and the C6 comes in maybe $5~6K cheaper too).

I have played Models B and M before, but that was some time ago in colleges and recital/concert halls; and so far, safe a Fazioli F228 I played last month, the Model B sounded best. But that's the same size as the C6 and probably needs to be compared to a CFIIIS. So if you have access to wide ranges of Yamaha C series (or even Kawai RX series) and Steinways, I would appreciate your perspective on comparing smaller "premium" grand pianos to larger "mass market" grand pianos.

I am most interested in the comparisons between Yamahas and Steinways simply because those are the ones I am more familiar with (and may one day buy), and more focus on tone/sound comparison would be preferrable since I find little to fault Yamaha's touch/action.

Thank you.

[TwinkleFingers]

what do you think of a 4'7" baby grand? I have heard people in this forum say that you would be better off to buy a high quality upright then to buy a grand of this size.  I just purchased a pearl river gp142 4'7".  The one I tryed out of the same model was spectacular for its size!  I hav'nt recieved the piano yet.(pacing back and forth:)  Any known problems with pianos of this size??? thankyou and goodluck finding your piano!

[Axtremus]

I have played a few Pearl River grand pianos, but all of them longer than 5 ft 6 in. I cannot say I liked anyone of them -- but that's because I was in large part hoping for a cheaper/larger grand piano that can at least match a Steinway Model M, which it self, at 5'7", is an excellent instrument in the $35k~$40k range. So I had my expectation set outside the the Pearl River's range from the get-go. The most important thing is, if the piano sounded good to you and the touch/action felt right to you, then that is the right piano for you, assuming that your goal was to buy a musical instrument rather than a piece of decorative furniture. Every one looks for different things from a piano. Every one compromises for different reasons -- budget and floor-space chief among them. As far as "durability" goes, since Pearl River has not been making pianos all that many years, I cannot say that Pearl River has any credible track record. As long as you think you will out-grow the piano before the parts and labor warranty expires, you're covered.

[TwinkleFingers]

thankyou for your reply.  how long ago did you test the pearl rivers??
and about outgrowing it, I think I already should of gotten a 5'5" or 6' piano.  Just because of the major difference in tone. There is going to be a piano show near me this coming weekend. up to 60% off of used pianos.  Any feedback on these shows?  Its called the Piano Truckload Sale.

[Axtremus]

I tested Pearl River pianos in late August this year. As far as sound goes, within the same product series, usually bigger IS better. Trust your ears and just go for the best sound your budget (and floor space) would allow. ^_^

[tomingram]

As a general rule when thinking about buying a small grand piano, you don't want to go with anything under 5 feet, because it looses sound capabilities, and yes, you would probably want to go with a good upright if you can afford one 5 feet or more in length.  

[rachfan]

I'd even use 5'5" as the practical cutoff point.  Even the Steinway S and the Baldwin R, both 5'2", are nothing to write home about.  Their materials are of fine quality, but the speaking length of the bass strings is just too short and the soundboards too small to be very satisfying.  If it were not for the legions of small dwelling owners/renters who demand those products for the sake of having a "name grand", I bet both companies would discontinue those models immediately, as they bring no real credit to those companies' product lines.  In fact Steinway did just that, but succumbed to pressure to revive the S.  Recently I tested a Yamaha C1 (5'3").  What a dismal experience!!   A large upright would be the more effective  instrument in these situations as Tomingram suggests.

[Ben P.]

First ever post here!  

Here's my question, similar to the one above: We have a spot in the house that can adequately fit a 6' Grand (at most) and I refuse to go less than 5'8".

I've seen some remarks on the board about "High end uprights." This sent me out to actually look at a couple. I played a Bechstein, a couple of Steinways and a Schimmel. Not bad. I grew up playing a very old, nicely restored Chickering (late 1800's) and it had phenomenal bass response. I've not been lucky enough to get to a Bosendorfer - BUT - price.

When I get to the price of the best uprights - I just can't see how anyone can justify it - except for space issues.

Any thoughts/advice?

As far as grands go, I am just a sucker for the German/Austrian/Italian makers. I am not a fan of Steinway for the simple reason that while their projection is quite good, their overtone heavy sound does not work for my ear.

I'm a jazz guitar player and I keep reaching for a pot when I've played Steinway.

My favorite is Bosendorfer - it is just a sweet, singing instrument and the build quality is fantastic. Another interesting choice for us is a dealer here in Seattle who is bringing Steingraeber on board (he's already got Bluthner - which is amazingly dark and rich). I played a 6'2" Baldwin that was very nice too.

I always buy an instrument based of low end definition and three-dimensionality and feel the B's really deliver there.

It also seems that there is a ton of antique/old/restored/vintage pianos around here too - but I am leaning very heavily on buying a new piano with warranty, bench, pristine action, etc.).

Does anyone have any feedback?

Thanks very much.

Ben

[tosca1]

Dear Ben,
With grand pianos it is the inverse of small is beautiful and if you can fit  a 6' grand in your room it would be a purchase you would never regret. I have a 5'10" grand and I have tried the next size up, the 6'4" in the same make and those few inches make a remarkable difference.
When it comes to make of piano there is a myriad of variables not least of which is budget and those high qualilty pianos that you mention, Blüthner, Bechstein and Bösendorfer are among the most expensive instruments. Most important, is the sound and touch that you are seeking and here again nearly every member of this forum would have different preferences. Even in factory made instruments no two will ever be absolutely alike in sound and touch response. The best way is for you to try as many pianos as you can and give yourself plenty of time to do this.

There are many magnificent old, vintage pianos, but if you are looking for a durable piano which will be problem free then a new one is the best choice.  Ultimately, in all pianos, the soundboard loses its crown or convex shape through the years of enormous pressure from the strings pushing down and the sound of the piano is irrevocably  compromised.  Unless the soundboard has been replaced in an old piano this is an inevitable problem.  In an old piano you can  suddenly encounter degenerative changes as the old glues break down and deterioration can be rapid.

Regards,
Robert.

[Ben P.]

Robert - thank you for the response - I appreciate your time and advice.

I agree with what you've said completely. Waiting for me is not a problem whatsoever - I searched for nearly two years to find my jazz guitar and when I did, it was well worth it.

I truly do prefer the more "fundamental" sound of the German/Austrian pianos and yes, they are certainly cost-prohibitive. We'll see how proficient my negotiating skills are in the next few months. I do believe we will go for  a new/newer piano though based directly on the reliability aspects.

Here is my guess - and hopefully someone out there can assist or refute me - I am guessing that with the economy the way it's been for the past couple of years, dealers, to keep in good graces with suppliers  (and keep the lights on) will need to be far more aggressive than in the recent past (sans Steinway). Am I off base to expect that a price can be struck near dealer cost?

Ben

[Axtremus]

... As far as grands go, I am just a sucker for the German/Austrian/Italian makers. I am not a fan of Steinway for ... their overtone heavy sound does not work for my ear. ... My favorite is Bosendorfer ... I always buy an instrument based of low end definition and three-dimensionality ...

I tried a few Bosendorfers, they are not my kind of piano. But if you are looking for that kind of sound, I would suggest also trying an August Forester (German) or Pleyel (French). The August Forester is darker and mellower, the Pleyel is less so though I'd consider it "mellow"(and the August Forester has some of the smoothest touch/action I have seen). They both have the 170cm and 190cm models (translates to about 5'7" and 6'3" respectively (and their prices are not as "prohibitive" when compared to the three "B"s you mentioned). I would be interested to know what you think of them if you have a chance to try them out.

I have also heard that price-wise, if you must get one of the three "B"s, buying them in Europe and then ship back to the US (assuming you are in the US) can result in lower cost (after factoring shipping across the Atlantic and import tariff), but this is not something that I have verified myself.

Good luck!

[Ben P.]

Axe - I am indeed considering the "buy in Europe" route. Shipping is nearly the same as going out of state in the U.S. in some cases. What I would save on tax here alone would make it worthwhile - but there is the consideration of dealers selling out from under local dealers ... So some folks are very reluctant to do it.

I can't find an August Forester for the life of me. I did hear some great news that Steingraeber may be coming to our area in the next month or two - I've heard great things about those. Also, I did play a Schultze Pollman a week ago that I considered very nice -  in the 6' range. Event their upright was very nice.  

Ben

[Ben P.]

Axtremus made a good point in a PM - I'm just outside of Seattle, so if anybody's got any leads, please let me know.

Thanks.

Ben

[Plaz]

Axtremus made a good point in a PM - I'm just outside of Seattle, so if anybody's got any leads, please let me know.

Thanks.

Ben

If you're in the Seattle area, Helmer's in Bellevue has a small selection of Bosendorfers.  They're not cheap, but I don't think you'll find lower price anywhere else.