The Pledge of Allegiance in school (pure baloney)

[allchopin]

Every day, you arrive, are forced to pledge allegiance to The United States of America in a Nazi-like way, then pledge allegiance under God.  who invented this scheme?  Under what guidelines are we supposed to do this?  I refuse to perform this nonsensical rite- whos with me?

[eddie92099]

Nazi, communist-like way

I think I agree with you in theory, but I have two problems:

1. The words which you have used as adjectives, "Nazi" and "Communist" are complete antonyms

2. I don't live in the USA and never have

However, we are forced to sit in an over-sized overpriced chapel every morning and say the Lord's prayer and listen to a whole lot more inconsequential ramblings - so I do sympathize!
Ed

[allchopin]

Well, perhaps fascism.  Eddie, where do you live?  I wouldnt think that the US is the only place where such a thing is practiced.

[eddie92099]

The UK. They are really into the whole "Church of England" thing here  :-/
Ed

[Irock1ce]

ah.. the good ol debate of the Pledge of Allegiance.. yeah i definitely agree the Pledge of Allegiance is total crap. Its almost like instantanously removing all the kids' own political thoughts and ideas by forcing this stupid pledge into their brains ever since your a little a kid. Hilarious how fast Americans have gotten so Arrogant and so fast. And this is more of a Nazi Germany thing, not a Communist thing... In fact, China doesnt have anything really like the pledge of allegiance and it can care less what religion you have....

[Hmoll]

China doesnt have anything really like the pledge of allegiance and it can care less what religion you have....

Ah yes. I wish I lived in a utopian society like China, where all personal freedoms were honored,  propoganda did not exist, and there was no indoctrination of political ideology. What a paradise. You may want to get a second opinion on your assertion that no one cares about your religion in China. the Dali Lama might be a good place to start.

Actually, sarcasm aside, I tend to agree that the Pledge of Allegiance should be scrapped. No one really knows what they're pladging to, and all it amounts to is a loyalty oath.

By the way, Irock, where exactly are you from, and in what country do you live?  If you live here in the US, do you not have the slightest appreciation or pride in your country? The way you bash the US, in addition to being incoherent, and barely literate, would be pretty unseemly and hypocritical  were you living here and enjoying the opportunities this country offers.

[eddie92099]

Why do we all have to have pride in our countries? The country we live in isn't necessarily the best you know! It's what I call the "footballer" (soccer  ) mentality. A Grimsby Town fan is going to say that Grimsby is the best team in the world - when clearly, they are not. I have very little pride in the UK - I have lived abroad and seen what the rest of the world is like,
Ed

[Hmoll]

Why do we all have to have pride in our countries? The country we live in isn't necessarily the best you know! It's what I call the "footballer" (soccer  ) mentality. A Grimsby Town fan is going to say that Grimsby is the best team in the world - when clearly, they are not. I have very little pride in the UK - I have lived abroad and seen what the rest of the world is like,
Ed

Call me old fashioned, but I think a certain amount of pride in ones country is important. I always have respect for people who - regardless of where they are from - exhibit some pride in their home country.  It reflects well on them. On the other hand blind jingoism, and flag waving, which I must admit, we have too much of here, does not elicit much respect. It's important to be informed about the good and the bad about your country.

To use your football supporter analogy. I would have more respect for the Grimsby Town fan who sticks   their team, knowing that, although the team might be languishing in the bottom half of the Second Division, it is still contributing something to the community, than I would the fair weather fan who turn away from their local losers, speaks out against them,  and cheers for Man United or Arsenal instead. On the other hand team loyalty, like patriotism, can be taken to extremes, as well.

[Irock1ce]

Hmm... funny how Hmoll suddenly takes my "China doesnt have a pledge of allegiance" to its human rights violations... Good for you Hmoll! i was smiply showing that the pledge of allegiance isnt a communist thing... I'm from China, and i live in Berkeley,CA. Umm yes.. one of the funny things with the Dalai Lama was that believe it or not the CIA actually tried things to try to get him out of there... the Dalai Lama has an equal, in Chinese hes called the Fan Quan, and he was not influenced by foreigners and did not leave China. He lived in the tibet until he was a very old age and lived very well in Tibet. Last time i checked, the chinese soldiers left after a while and the only thing they did was come and introduce some electricity(which the tibetans actually love them for). hell, if you go read this book called (the emergence of China or something), these 2 americans go to tibet and actually interview tibetans. And all the interviews were top secret interviews. Funny part is, something like 19 outta the 21 all loved the Chinese government and what it did. Before China went to tibet, tibet survived on a slavery system where the top leaders were the masters and the rest of the population was almost like slaves to them. Funny isnt it? In the U.S., all we hear is how bad China was to the tibetans. True, they did some pretty horrible stuff but its NOTHING, literally NOTHING to what the Americans did to the native americans. Another thing, we're on the internet! Who the hell freakin cares whether im literate here or not. This isnt my college essay and i sure dont care. Seems stupid you should care how i write my sentences. They make sense. Hell, Eddie,Allchopin and some of the other members can sure read it. In my answer to the issue of pride, please go and read my post on "how 9/11 changed your life". Everyone was posting things about how the lives were lost and everything and i felt that it was cogent for me to put some of the reasons WHY it happened. Before you come and talk to me about Tibet and Dalai Lama, go and read some other books other than just the American super liberals who never even took a look at what happened in Tibet and who was involved in it.

True, i am taking all that this country has to offer. Hell, i am saturating myself with it. Me and my family has both done that and I love this country very much for that. But this country has heavy flaws and is it so wrong for me to speak against its past wrong-doings? I simply choose to often look at the U.S. in ways that are not in the history books. Perhaps some exploration of the history of the U.S. would be good? I appreciate all the things the U.S. has done, because our stupid history classes stress them so much and its been pounded in my head. I dont even care about it anymore.

[Irock1ce]

btw. if my post was incoherent and not very literate. you can edit it for me if u want.    Btw, i show a LOt of pride in my community. Im one of the top leaders in community service hours at my 3500 people HS and I will be stepping in to President of my Key CLub at HS in feb.  

[Hmoll]

Hmm... funny how Hmoll suddenly takes my "China doesnt have a pledge of allegiance" to its human rights violations... Good for you Hmoll! i was smiply showing that the pledge of allegiance isnt a communist thing... I'm from China, and i live in Berkeley,CA.  

Sorry, rockman. You're the one who brought up China, so the fact that you contrasted freedom in the US with freedoms in that country  - and it had nothing to do with the Pledge of Allegiance, it had to do with religious, and other freedom, which China has a poor track record in - opened it up to discussion. Hint, it's a glass-houses thing.

btw. if my post was incoherent and not very literate. you can edit it for me if u want.    Btw, i show a LOt of pride in my community. Im one of the top leaders in community service hours at my 3500 people HS and I will be stepping in to President of my Key CLub at HS in feb.  

Well don't dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back. I still maintain that it's unseemly and ungrateful to regularly bash your home country in an international forum, and not have one positive thing to say about it. If you can't think of anything good about this country while you're living here, you must be  ignorant, narrow minded, brainwashed, or all three.

As far as editing what you write - besides the fact that I wouldn't know where to start - I'm not sure how old you are, but my 8 yr old daughter writes and spells better than you without me having to edit anything. I'm certainly not going to edit another child's writing.

[ahmedito]

Hmmm  

When I was little I had to say the pledge in school. I hated it because I am Mexican and I was forced to say it along with all the other kids....

Anyways my opinions (for anyone that cares to read them):

- In these days of globalization, it is increasingly common to stop being proud of your country. Mass comunication has showed us other countrys and better systems thatn ours, and we realize that having pride in many national things, often becomes ridicolous in this day and age. I mean... I love Mexican food, people, ethnic culture and natural resources. Even so, I absolutely HATE living in Mexico and one of my aspirations is living the rest of my life abroad. (I have pride in many things, but not in my corrupt government and neglected country). Even so, it is a sign of pride, that we take the trouble to protest against everything that is wrong in our respective countries.
- The United States is slowly becoming one of the most hated countries around the world. Dont ask me why... but many people believe that the USA's shameless self promotion, self righteousness and political interference are a cancer of the world. (Im egyptian, but I live in Mexico. Having lived in the middle east many years of my life, I know that many people think this for a fact.) Personally, I wouldnt protest if Mexico became the 51st state.

[eddie92099]

As far as editing what you write - besides the fact that I wouldn't know where to start - I'm not sure how old you are, but my 8 yr old daughter writes and spells better than you without me having to edit anything. I'm certainly not going to edit another child's writing.

I would love to see your attempts at writing in Mandarin...
Ed

[Hmoll]

I would love to see your attempts at writing in Mandarin...
Ed

You got me there ed, but my original point to the ungrateful whelp stands: have some self respect and pride in yourself and your country. I hate to see people come to the US and talk poorly about their country, whether it is England, Mexico, China, etc. I also, hate to be in another country, and hear Americans do nothing but criticize the US using the same shop worn  stereotypes and generalizationsmwhile never considering or appreciating what is good about their home.
I'm surprised at you for saying you feel no pride towards your own country. There is plenty about England to be proud of.

[Irock1ce]

woohoo. thank you mr. hmoll. start by calling me an ungrateful whelp. Isnt it hilarious ur arguing with a 16yr old on the internet in a piano forum? And come on, will you please go and read my other post?  Lots of the crap i post are only because no one else even goes into it. And isnt it hilarious that when i say something the U.S. has done, you make it sound like im criticizing the country as a whole. I will make it clear for you if your still too blind to read what i've been saying. I dislike the government and some of the things the government does. And to make the contrast to me with ur daughter, you have no idea who or what i am in real life. Lets see how your daughter does in H.S. Me = 4.5GPA,Will be taking Multivariable Calculus/Linear Algebra in Senior year of H.S. at UC Berkeley, President of Key Club, Co-chair of APIC, Youth and Government Spring Conference #1 Debater in NIC. Hey, im not trying to sound like an *** but if your gonna start the comparison.. bring it on. Remember this also, i came to the U.S. when i was 6 so English is my second language. Yet, I constantly rank in the top 98-99 percentile in the state testing. (*dislocates shoulder patting back*)Unless your from another country or something, (which it doesnt seem like) you have no idea how it is to start in the U.S. with my family and exactly 0 dollars. I'll keep on "bashing" America if thats what you call it and you can keep on showing ur good ol' american pride. The past will eventually catch up with us. BTW:Errors in writing means nothing as long as the point gets through. I hate restrictions on writing.

[Hmoll]

woohoo. thank you mr. hmoll. start by calling me an ungrateful whelp. Isnt it hilarious ur arguing with a 16yr old on the internet in a piano forum? And come on, will you please go and read my other post?  Lots of the crap i post are only because no one else even goes into it. And isnt it hilarious that when i say something the U.S. has done, you make it sound like im criticizing the country as a whole. I will make it clear for you if your still too blind to read what i've been saying. I dislike the government and some of the things the government does. And to make the contrast to me with ur daughter, you have no idea who or what i am in real life. Lets see how your daughter does in H.S. Me = 4.5GPA,Will be taking Multivariable Calculus/Linear Algebra in Senior year of H.S. at UC Berkeley, President of Key Club, Co-chair of APIC, Youth and Government Spring Conference #1 Debater in NIC. Hey, im not trying to sound like an *** but if your gonna start the comparison.. bring it on. Remember this also, i came to the U.S. when i was 6 so English is my second language. Yet, I constantly rank in the top 98-99 percentile in the state testing. (*dislocates shoulder patting back*)Unless your from another country or something, (which it doesnt seem like) you have no idea how it is to start in the U.S. with my family and exactly 0 dollars. I'll keep on "bashing" America if thats what you call it and you can keep on showing ur good ol' american pride. The past will eventually catch up with us. BTW:Errors in writing means nothing as long as the point gets through. I hate restrictions on writing.

Not sure why you're posting your resume on this forum, but it doesn't interest me. Maybe you're looking for a summer internship.

By the way, since I was reminded that English is your second language, I will kindly assert that errors in writing mean a lot it terms of clarity in your message, and how you are viewed. Just a suggestion from someone who interviews and rejects a lot of job candidates for positions where one of many requirements are "strong comminications skills."

BTW, don't hide behind your age. If you post something I disagree with, I'll argue with it regardless of your age.

My original point, which still stands, is you should have a balanced view of the country you live in. If all you can do is criticize the US, and say it's the most hated and evil country in the world, you are both inaccurate, and ungrateful towards the country where you live, your parents find employment, and otherwise benefit.  

Show me where I have ever waved the American flag on this forum. I can't say I disagree with some of the criticisms you've made - which are nothing new, and I've heard the same for the last few decades -  but it does not reflect well on you to spew invective against the US, while you and your family are enjoying opportunity of raising your standard of living.

The US is full of immigrants who come here to get ahead, and that's fine. What frustrates me is when they come here and do nothing but complain about this country without showing any appreciation for it. I put you in that category of immigrant because everything you have posted about the US has been the same shop-worn diatribe that you think people here aren't aware of, but they've heard time and time again, without any sense of balance, knowledge or perspective about the US.

[eddie92099]

I hate to see people come to the US and talk poorly about their country, whether it is England, Mexico, China, etc.
I'm surprised at you for saying you feel no pride towards your own country. There is plenty about England to be proud of.

England is not a country.

The US is full of immigrants who come here to get ahead, and that's fine. What frustrates me is when they come here and do nothing but complain about this country without showing any appreciation for it. I put you in that category of immigrant because everything you have posted about the US has been the same shop-worn diatribe that you think people here aren't aware of, but they've heard time and time again, without any sense of balance, knowledge or perspective about the US.

The only people in America who aren't immigrants are the Native Americans - just because your family has been there slightly longer than another's, doesn't make them any more of an immigrant than you - so be careful what you say!
Ed

[Hmoll]

England is not a country.


The only people in America who aren't immigrants are the Native Americans - just because your family has been there slightly longer than another's, doesn't make them any more of an immigrant than you - so be careful what you say!
Ed

Sorry for misspeaking about your country. I should have said the United Kingdom, and I'm still surprised.

Immigrants in the US are generally defined as people who move here from another country - i.e. non-citizens who were not born here.  There is nothing derogatory in that word, but by definition my grandparents on my father's side were immigrants, and my father was not. The concept of immigration was foreign to most native American groups.

Off to play pianos at Steinway Hall - see you later.

[Jeremy]

The flag stands for the right to not salute it.

[allchopin]

Touche~

[Bosendorfer_214]

You are using the freedom that this country (the US) gave you to commit what I would almost classify as treason.  If you people don't like the country you live in, get the hell out! It's that simple.  There are plenty of people that would give their right arm to live in the US.  Why don't you see how lucky you are.  If you were born in China and were the second child, chances are you would be murdered or given away?

[eddie92099]

You are using the freedom that this country (the US) gave you to commit what I would almost classify as treason.

The US is not as free as you might think. It is in fact one of the very few western countries who don't allow a communist organisation of any sort, and one need only look at the circumstances surrounding George W. Bush's election to see the corruption which exists behind a surface of solidarity.

If you were born in China and were the second child, chances are you would be murdered or given away?

This is a classic example of American ignorance - when the population expansion of China was being discouraged, the government did not murder second borns, simply removed some of the benefits (such as free healthcare) available compared to if a family had just the one child,
Ed

[allchopin]

What Im saying is that I dont need to recite an oath every 5 days of 7 to prove that I am allied with America.  That seems absurd to me- Im not sure that any other countries are forced to do this, but I doubt many do.  As well, it proves nothing, because any criminal or foreigner can say the same words and not mean them.  I am not against the country, but I am allowed to be against some of the things they do.

[eddie92099]

What Im saying is that I dont need to recite an oath every 5 days of 7 to prove that I am allied with America.  That seems absurd to me- Im not sure that any other countries are forced to do this, but I doubt many do.

I seem to remember a similar system in 1930s Germany...
Ed

[Jeremy]

Am I the only one that things that having countries in the first place is a stupid idea?

[Hmoll]

The US is not as free as you might think. It is in fact one of the very few western countries who don't allow a communist organisation of any sort.

I guess you've never heard of Gus Hall. Tell me how an illegal organization is allowed to have their candidate on the ballots of four presidential elections.

There are lots of socialist/communist parties and organizations in the US.

[eddie92099]

Am I the only one that things that having countries in the first place is a stupid idea?

In total agreement,
Ed

[eddie92099]

I guess you've never heard of Gus Hall. Tell me how an illegal organization is allowed to have their candidate on the ballots of four presidential elections.

There are lots of socialist/communist parties and organizations in the US.

They are illegal - what is your point? (But then again, so is rigging the votes of Florida...),
Ed

[Hmoll]

They are illegal - what is your point? (But then again, so is rigging the votes of Florida...),
Ed

My point is you are wrong. The CPUSA is not illegal. Tell me what federal law currently on the books outlaws the  CPUSA or any other socialist or communist political party.


By the way, I still think the Pledge of Allegiance is a loyalty oath that should be scrapped.

[eddie92099]

My point is you are wrong.

Your point is wrong,
Ed

[Hmoll]

Your point is wrong,
Ed

While I like a concise argument, would you like to tell me what federal law on the books outlaws that party - i.e. disproves my point?

[eddie92099]

Look it up yourself if you don't believe me,
Ed

[Hmoll]

Look it up yourself if you don't believe me,
Ed

Ed. Again, you are wrong. You are in another country telling me what is and is not legal in my country. I believe it is incumbent on you to prove your point.

If you cannot prove your point, then you don't know what you are talking about. For example, I would not presume to know specifics abour jurisprudence in another sovereignty, like the UK, so I would not have the arrogance to tell someone who lives there what is legal and what is not.  

As I said before, state an existing, enforced federal law that outlaws the existence of the CPUSA, which has had candidates in several US presidential elections. If you cannot, then you also can't maintain that the existence of fringe parties - socialist or communist, for example - are outlawed here. It's as simple as that.

[eddie92099]

I am not bothered that you don't believe me so therefore see no point in going to the trouble,
Ed

[debussy_lover]

Ed, don't be an idiot.  

https://groups.yahoo.com/group/Communist-Party/message/896

https://www.cpusa.org/

The "restrictive ballot access laws" mentioned make it difficult for ALL low-membership and under-funded political parties to get a place on the ballot. That's another issue altogether, but Communism is not banned by the US federal government.

One of the fundamental tenets of the US Constitution is freedom of speech and freedom of expression. Granted, things here don't always live up to that high ideal. Still, we get pretty close most of the time.

By the way, I'm not endorsing communism - the CPUSA is way too vehement and leftist for my taste. Still, they have a right to have their message heard.

[eddie92099]

As I said before, it does not bother me that you don't believe me. Additionally, if I want to be an idiot I will - I live in a country where free speech really is allowed,
Ed