Pulled the trigger: Sauter 185 Delta

[wzkit]

After 7 months of intense piano hunting, I finally settled on the Sauter 185 Delta. In my search, I had visited virtually every piano dealer in Singapore, tried various makes including Yamaha, Kawai, Chinese pianos, Petrof, Bohemia, Seiler, amongst others.  After around 3 months or so of searching, it was finally down to either the Shigeru SK-5 or the Sauter 185, both of which had not yet arrived in the showrooms of the respective dealers. Sometime in mid-November, the sole SK-5 finally arrived. While I liked it, in the end I decided not to go for it for a number of reasons, including space considerations.

Which left me with the only obvious choice, which had unforunately not yet arrived in the showroom. After much careful consideration, I decided to take a calculated risk and settle on the Sauter 185 sight unseen (and nearly doubling my original budget in the process). Under most circumstances this would have seemed a foolish thing to do. However, after playing the smaller 160 Alpha in the Sauter showroom nearly every weekend for 6 months, I was witness to how the sound "matured" with time and got better. At the same time, I got to know the dealer really well, and was extremely impressed by his skills as a technician (he spent quite a few years working in the Sauter factory at Spaichingen), as well as his complete dedication and passion for his job, and most importantly, his integrity. So, given the professionalism of the dealer, and how the 160 Alpha had outperformed for its size, I was confident that the 185 Delta would satisfy me, or even exceed my expectations.

Here's the other part of the deal maker: The dealer is flying me to the Sauter factory in Spaichingen in two days time, air ticket paid for by him!!! Once there, I will be given two full days to choose from the two available instruments. One of these has a so called "accelerated action", while the other has the standard action, which I had initially found too heavy for my liking (at least on the Alpha). I am told that regardless of which instrument I choose in the end, I will still be able to make adjustments to the action so that it is exactly how I like it. There will also be other little customizations to the finish (burl walnut fallboard for example). In all, once I select the instrument, it will take another 1-2 months to get the action and finish customised, before it is shipped to Singapore.

Looks like its going to be a really exciting trip to Spaichingen! I just can't wait!

[pianistimo]

i have no idea where spaichingen is, but that is quite a dealer!  and, he must think of you as a very important client to his business.  he must like the fact that you are looking for certain qualities in the piano and are 'picky.'  those kind of customers probably help him improve the product (the piano) - so in effect you are helping each other.  what an amazing thing to get a free trip by buying an expensive piano.  i'd never heard of that brand before and wonder how new it is?

some french guy was on tv last night (monseur rapille) but he's very popular with helping people make associations in advertising that have nothing to do with the item itself (only associations).  he said that in france, cheese is alive.  they never put it in the refrigerator.  here in the usa - he said that he had to learn that cheese is dead.  with the makers of 'sargento' cheese - he suggested good packaging (morgue quality) so that it can be kept indefinately in the refrigerator.  it appealed to people to have the 'zip-lock' top.

what i'm saying (usually people don't follow my trains of thought - so don't feel bad) is that maybe you should start thinking of what appeals the most to you about this piano vs other pianos (whether related to playing or not - like the shape, the feel, the associations).  this french guy said to a group that he wanted them to use that early morning awareness (before you get out of bed) and write down everything that came to mind about whatever word he wanted to have associated.  in your case, it could be 'touch' or a word related to how you think an ideal piano should respond.  some pianists hate really responsive pianos because they don't give them time to think - and yet others prefer them.  there must be an attraction to some part of the action that makes you feel like you have control with this speed. 

[smatsuura]

I think you made a great decision to choose SAUTER. I have bought 30 years old SAUTER grand with 182cm, which is called "V-Model", one of their early grand piano models. The tone is so warm and sustained. I love playing this instrument, feeling its touch/action. It is something like I am grabing and pulling the sound from somewhere deep inside the piano, just unlike the feeling when I am playing Steinway or Yamaha. SAUTER feeling is, as has been often said, very similar to Boesendorfer.

SAUTER piano is designed to reach to its best sound in three years after you start playing it, so I am sure you will enjoy the moment to create your own sound.

When I sent a message to SAUTER company asking if there is any SAUTER trained technician in Sydney, the response was from Mr Urlich Sauter, the owner of SAUTER! I am sure this company has kept developed with its house-factory spirit in it throughout their history.

Enjoy your trip to Spaichgen!

[Axtremus]

wzkit,

Very glad to see a resolution to your quest. I wish you a fruitful trip to Germany next year. Do keep us updated... the selection, the delivery, the settling/breaking-in of the piano.

[Not to take away from wzkit's great news, but I would like to respond to a few things mentioned by smatsuura.]

I think you made a great decision to choose SAUTER. I have bought 30 years old SAUTER grand with 182cm, which is called "V-Model", one of their early grand piano models. The tone is so warm and sustained. I love playing this instrument, feeling its touch/action. It is something like I am grabing and pulling the sound from somewhere deep inside the piano, just unlike the feeling when I am playing Steinway or Yamaha. SAUTER feeling is, as has been often said, very similar to Boesendorfer.

My experience with a new Sauter Omega is that it's on the bright side, quite the opposite of "warm," especially the treble. Nothing exception to note about sustain. I didn't feel like I had to "pull" the tone out at all... it's more like the tone just blurts out without much effort on my part. And, no, the action did not feel like any Bösendorfer I have played, at all. Frankly, this is the first time I've even heard some one saying a Sauter's action feels like a Bösendoefer's. The Omega's action was good, just not Bösendorfer-like, as best I can recall. Of course, the Omega, being much larger than the "V-Model" and being a 30 years newer, coupled with different dealer voicing and room acoustics, can legitimately sound very different from each other, and I certainly admit that we might have very different notions of what's "warm" when describing piano tone. I just cannot see your sound/touch characterization of your V-Model generalizing to the new Omega. *shrug*

SAUTER piano is designed to reach to its best sound in three years after you start playing it, so I am sure you will enjoy the moment to create your own sound.

Nothing against Sauter in particular, and this is not the first time I hear people claim that this or that piano needs a few years to mature to its full glory. I see that as a common limitation (or at least a very bad sales pitch) of these pianos rather than a feature. I think it's a BAD IDEA to purposefully design a piano that takes so long to mature. If a piano is not sounding/playing its best, then it should not sell for top dollars. If the factory or dealer wants top dollar for a piano, they should just keep playing it in the factory or at the dealership for three years until the piano is in top shape before selling it -- otherwise, they are purposefully selling pre-mature/unfinished products, and they should give the customers big discounts for having to put up with three years of sub-par performance and taking the risk of "what if" the product does not mature or mature into something the customers hate a few years hence.

When I sent a message to SAUTER company asking if there is any SAUTER trained technician in Sydney, the response was from Mr Urlich Sauter, the owner of SAUTER! I am sure this company has kept developed with its house-factory spirit in it throughout their history.

Other companies who are known to have their owner, CEO/President, or immediate family of the owner answer customers' questions: Steinberg, Estonia, Charles Walter. A Walter family member signs every piano that ships. The Estonia owner (who seems to spend lots of time in the US) sends personal thank-you cards and sometimes even visit customers at their homes and sign their pianos. Heck, even Henry Steinway sometimes participate in promotional events and sign pianos that are purchased at these events. These are great gestures that give some customers a warm and fuzzy feeling (and a good portion of American consumers do warm up to the notion of a "family business"), but I wouldn't read more into it than that.

[smatsuura]

To Axtremus;

Thanks for your reply to my comments.
It was interesting to know how things can be felt/seen differently among people.

I do not know where you are from, but if you have any chance to come donw to Sydney (not in Canada, but in Australia), plese drop by to ry my V-model grand, you will see what I meant to say here - my poor English, apparently, might not convey what I wanted to say efficiently.

 

[invictus]

Too bad you didn't take the Seiler Grand, you would have loved it, or at least I would have

[Axtremus]

To Axtremus;

Thanks for your reply to my comments.
It was interesting to know how things can be felt/seen differently among people.

I do not know where you are from, but if you have any chance to come donw to Sydney (not in Canada, but in Australia), plese drop by to ry my V-model grand, you will see what I meant to say here - my poor English, apparently, might not convey what I wanted to say efficiently.

Thanks! Glad to make a new friend. I'm from the US, near Boston. Truth is, we don't see many Sauter pianos in this area, and the English language is ill-suited to describe piano tone to say the least. I will be sure to send you a message should I plan to visit Sydney in the future. Please also feel free to drop me a line should you come visit Boston -- a reciprocal invitation to come play my piano is hereby extended.

[wzkit]

I'm writing from Zurich now, after having visited the Sauter factory in Spaichingen a few days ago. I think both samrtsuura and Axtremus are correct. According to my dealer, the older Sauters, which used Renner hammers, had a much warmer tonal profile. The newer models on the other hand, use harder Abel hammers, which has resulted in a brighter, slightly metallic sound.

As for my piano, I must say that the 185 Delta is an incredibly powerful piano, almost equal in power to the Shigeru SK-5 that I was considering. This may be hard to believe coming from a 6 foot piano, but it reallz does sound closer to a 7 foot piano. In fact, I was quite surprised with the power of the instrument and wondered if it would have difficulty playing softly and intimately - I like pianos that can produce a very soft, intimate sound (just listen to mz recordings on the Audition room to see what I mean). These fears were allayed with some voicing at the factory, and there will be more voicing and regulation done when the piano arrives in March.

There were two Deltas to choose from - one with the normal action, and a warm but somewhat thick and blurry sound, and the other, with a limited edition 'accelerated' action, that was much clearer and transparent, with a beautiful crystalline singing tone in the trouble, with a growly bass. I chose the accelerated action model, which as it turns out, will be the last ever produced, as they ahve not sold so well in Europe. Additionally, I had the top octave voiced down a little to take out some of the excessive brightness that Axtremus had talked about.  I also had the una corda pedal adjusted, so that the hammer hits just 2 strings instead of the 2 1/2 strings in the original setting. Some more adjustments to the una-corda may be made once the piano arrives in Singapore, so that I can squeeze an even softer pianissimo from the piano. I have also asked the dealer to make the key depth slightly shallower - other than that, the action, though not light, is extremely fast and responsive. All in all, this was a piano which surprised me with its power initially, but over two days of extensive testing of the instrument, I have learnt to control it better, and with the additional fine tuning, the piano should be able to get the maximum dynamic range possible
       I will post the pictures of my trip when I get back to Singapore.

[wzkit]

Too bad you didn't take the Seiler Grand, you would have loved it, or at least I would have

As a matter of fact, I did try the Seiler grand, but it did not impress me. Clean clear sound, but that was about it. Not much variation in colour, nor was it exceptionally powerful. Having tried both, I'd place the Sauter Delta easily a notch above the Seiler 185 (and Schimmel 189T) for that matter, simply because it outperforms for it size. It really is a 7 foot grand disguised in a 6 foot body.

[Axtremus]

wzkit,

Great news! Sounds like you're already having a happy Christmas!

[wzkit]

wzkit,

Great news! Sounds like you're already having a happy Christmas!

Indeed ! I'll be posting up the photos when I get back! Stay posted

[smatsuura]

Congratulations, wzkit! I am looking forward to seeing the pictures of your new baby.

My V-model is made in 1975, and yes, it exactly has renner hammer/action.

I did not know until your comment, that hammer/action makes such an apparent difference.