neighbour is gonna sue me

[paris]

today i started to practising somewhere around 8am, after literally 5mins my insane neigbour came down in fury and sat at the door bell. firstly i didn't want to open since this is normal thing for her to complain. but hell, she went on ringing and after all i had to open. she told me she's gonna hire some people to come and measure the noise my piano produces and then sue me. i've already checked the law, house order allows me playing at that time, IF the noise is below some limit. the thing is, its very likely that my piano is above that limit which can result in to prohibit me playing at all. i was thinking about isolating the room which is damn very expensive and not completely useful, you can still hear some noise.  well just to mention she's some kind of artist and often does thing with hammers and bore machine which is way more iritating than piano. besides, last night she was doing her ''work'' until 1am. i know i posted similar thread while ago but this time its more serious. imagine me having a trial i'm a law breaker for god sake haha

[zheer]

According to the english legal system you owe your neighbour a duty of care, thus he/she may take you to court for private NUISANCE if you have disturbed her peace and quite. A person is entitled to some degree of peave and quite.
Judging by the way you play, you will win the court case, 8 am is reasonable.All the best.

[zheer]

You may have to play on a electric piano, so you can bring the volume down, this might stop you from getting a criminal record.Hehehehe.

[thalbergmad]

If the judge is a pianist you are OK.

I use a digital piano now, so I can play anytime of day and no-one gets disturbed. I will buy you one for Christmas.

I have heard that sticking egg boxes to a wall diminishes the sound.

Hope all of this helps.

Thal

[rc]

I can't stand anal people who'll get so upset over such things. Bizarre incidence, when I played in a band we used to practice in my mom's garage where the noise went right through the wall like they weren't there. We made a huge racket, daily, sometimes partying into the wee hours. The neighbours tolerated everything, if we got too disruptive they would just call to let us know and it would stop. Then, after we weren't playing there anymore, parents were out of town and I was watching the house, not doing anything bothersome, is when someone called the police for a noise complaint. For vehicle, that was out of town.

I have heard that sticking egg boxes to a wall diminishes the sound.

That will deaden the sound, the rough surface will prevent reverbrations. But it won't do much for stopping the sound from going through the walls. Two things will stop a sound, air and density. Like how a shout will naturally die out over enough distance, building a false wall would create a dead air space that would help stop sound. Or lining the walls with lead. Soundproofing is inconvenient.

It's nice to be able to work out an agreement with the neighbours, but some people aren't very reasonable... 'Specially if she's already wound up over it. Maybe if you punch her in the nose she'll become afraid of you and keep away. Kidnapping her pet canary may also help make your point.

[cfortunato]

I can't sympathize, guy.  I've always lived in an apartment, and only play the piano between 12noon and 10 pm, and I usually stop at 9.  8am?  Hey, if you wake people up, they'll get angry.  That's reality.  Start later in the morning.  They might have kids.

[pianistimo]

i used to be worried about the noise when i lived in apartment, too.  i had a piano tuner suggest installing a piece of thick felt which dropped between the hammers and the strings at the point where the hammers struck them.  the guys name was borge christiansen (in southern california).  i don't know if he could e-mail how he did it - but basically i pull this knob on the far right under the keyboard and it drops this whole thin piece of metal holding the felt.  when i pull the knob, the felt returns up and i can play normally.

write your neighbor and tell her you want her to have peace and quiet (agreed with zheer about the law) and will attempt to modify your schedule and hope she does hers too (mentioning that you couldn't sleep at 1 am because of the bore machine).  maybe instead of paying lawyers fees - you can just pay the tuner?  i hope it all works out.  sometimes - giving a little is better than paying a lot.

[invictus]

today i started to practising somewhere around 8am, after literally 5mins my insane neigbour came down in fury and sat at the door bell. firstly i didn't want to open since this is normal thing for her to complain. but hell, she went on ringing and after all i had to open. she told me she's gonna hire some people to come and measure the noise my piano produces and then sue me. i've already checked the law, house order allows me playing at that time, IF the noise is below some limit. the thing is, its very likely that my piano is above that limit which can result in to prohibit me playing at all. i was thinking about isolating the room which is *** very expensive and not completely useful, you can still hear some noise.  well just to mention she's some kind of artist and often does thing with hammers and bore machine which is way more iritating than piano. besides, last night she was doing her ''work'' until 1am. i know i posted similar thread while ago but this time its more serious. imagine me having a trial i'm a law breaker for god sake haha

Here is my advice:
Don't play Prokofiev early in the morning, don't!
Rachmaninoff in the morning is also a bad choice.
No, Bartok is a poor decision to make in the morning.
Perhaps Beethoven is not too good of a choice

Maybe some Debussy or some light mozart.

BTW, notice most of the composers i mentioned are 20th century, because i know them well and i focus on those pieces most.

[pianistimo]

say, i found that schimmel pianos have a middle pedal that activates a felt muffler, too.

www.schimmel-piano.de/e/SCH_US_Gutzuwissen.pdf

the composer alkan kept two apartments (one on top of the other) so he could play his pedal piano and "contain the hellish din...."

[zheer]

say, i found that schimmel pianos have a middle pedal that activates a felt muffler, too.

     Thats a very good idea pianistimo.

 Fortunetly i have never had that problem, infact when i was younger we lived next to an oldish lady and her daughter, this lady told me she loved my piano playing and that she would start reading her books when i playd.Her daughter was very pritty which was reason for me to try even harder. I know am sad.

[paris]

I can't sympathize, guy. I've always lived in an apartment, and only play the piano between 12noon and 10 pm, and I usually stop at 9. 8am? Hey, if you wake people up, they'll get angry. That's reality. Start later in the morning. They might have kids.

its impossible and ridiculous for me to start playing at noon, and not necessary. people are usually at work. my ex-neighbours who lived in the same flat where particular neighbour lives now, had 4-5 very small children, they absolutely loved my playing and i had no restrictions at all.

write your neighbor and tell her you want her to have peace and quiet (agreed with zheer about the law) and will attempt to modify your schedule and hope she does hers too (mentioning that you couldn't sleep at 1 am because of the bore machine).

i've already modified my schedule as much as i could. since i have other activities besides practising, i'm not always able to practising at suitable time. thats the reason why i have to start at 8am. on the other hand, another neighbours who live downstairs, only want me to stop between 3-5pm, and they're fine with early and late practising. then comes this neighbour who wants to sue me, because she doesn't mind playing between 3-5pm, but doesn't want playing in the morning or evening. which makes situation rather difficult to please everyone unfortunaltely

Here is my advice:
Don't play Prokofiev early in the morning, don't!
Rachmaninoff in the morning is also a bad choice.
No, Bartok is a poor decision to make in the morning.
Perhaps Beethoven is not too good of a choice

Maybe some Debussy or some light mozart.

actually, when she came, i was playing under the middle, soft pedal (not unacorda). i don't even consider to play rach or liszt in the morning.

You may have to play on a electric piano, so you can bring the volume down, this might stop you from getting a criminal record.Hehehehe.

i'm not really into buying a new piano...i have already 2 pianos in my too small flat. i can't afford it, maybe if i move my bed out of flat and start to sleep on the piano.   

[zheer]

i'm not really into buying a new piano...i have already 2 pianos in my too small flat. i can't afford it, maybe if i move my bed out of flat and start to sleep on the piano.   

 
    This is what i would do if i were in your situation Paris. I would sell one of the pianos and buy an electric piano with the money, therefore you  would be able to play on the electric any time of the day, and only play on the accustic when possible.
         Secondly you could find yourself another flat , one that is semidetache, far from a nother flat.
         Thirdly you can seek legal advice.
   
     If i can think of anything better i will tell you.

[quantum]

Probably totally irrelevant. 

I remember this episode of The Practice (lawyer TV show).  This lady was being sued because she would sing every morning when she got out of bed.  Neighbour complained.  Her reason for singing is that it was the only thing that gave her a reason to live - due to some illness or something tragic that happend in the past (I don't remember).  Anways, the  judges speach was beautiful: someting along the lines of.... the day that a person has to sue another for making music is truely a sad day indeed.  Ruling in favour of defendant 

[leahcim]

i've already modified my schedule as much as i could. since i have other activities besides practising, i'm not always able to practising at suitable time. thats the reason why i have to start at 8am. on the other hand, another neighbours who live downstairs, only want me to stop between 3-5pm, and they're fine with early and late practising. then comes this neighbour who wants to sue me, because she doesn't mind playing between 3-5pm, but doesn't want playing in the morning or evening. which makes situation rather difficult to please everyone unfortunaltely

Personally I would just do the following.

If there are some legal conditions, play legally. i.e measure the levels yourself, get the appropriate sound proofing, if needed, and then play within any times specified as you desire. That's it, that's all you have to do. Do it once and you'll never have to worry about it again whoever moves in / out or whatever their preferences are.

[You could measure her sound levels too at the same time if you think the noise she makes at 1am is unreasonable]

Beyond that, If you want to take into account some neighbours' preferences, fair enough. But I wouldn't bother, because it'd be like asking them all to come and pick your wallpaper.

If you do, just make it clear to anyone if you say you won't play between 3-5 pm or on Wednesdays or whatever, that you are playing legally, so you don't have to, and that you can't guarantee that you will always be able to accommodate them. Or say nothing and do it if you want [don't give them the opportunity to claim you have some agreement over and above whatever legal requirements there are that you've broken]

The problem with accommodating neighbours ad hoc desires leads to things like this.

To me, 3-5pm is reasonable but 8am less so, but that's just my opinion, which is the problem. It seems that you've been practising with a schedule that worked with old and existing neighbours and are considering the new neighbour to be unreasonable simply because she has her own preferences.

[fiasco]

I live in an apartment where the landlord lives beneath us.  He told us they were going away on a week's vacation, and I was like, "Great, I'll be able to play the piano at night."  So I was practicing something around 1:00 AM, quietly, with the soft pedal.  A few days go by, and the landlord returns and knocks on the door and said that the neighbor, and old lady in the house caddy-corner to our property, called him and complained that the piano woke her up.  Now, I guess she must've heard it, but how it woke her up I have no idea.  She must be the world's lightest sleeper.  I demonstrated for him how lightly I was playing, he just kinda shrugged.  So now, at night, I practice on my $300 77 key Casio with headphones. I sometimes wonder if just the percussive sound of my fingers on the plastic keys is enough to disturb her sleep.  Ever hear a Chopin Ballade on a $300 Casio?  It's pretty sweet.  I need to by a house... or better yet, a farm.

[paris]

thank you all for replies.i had awkward conversation with her yesterday. well, i think i'm going to buy digital piano in the end. at least its cheaper then whole trial with lawyers and that stuff. not that my parents are too happy about new expenses but its only what we can do if we don't want more problems. today i'm going to see some digital models and decide, i've already made some calls, there are yamaha, kawaii and casio, am going to test them and see which could do the job. somebody suggested to sell one piano, well i can't do that since its my first piano which i got when i was 4 (yeh i know i'm sentimental haha) but its really crappy one, besides i wouldn't get much money for it.
isn't that ironic, i'll have 2 pianos in my bedroom and 3rd one in living room 

[BoliverAllmon]

lucky you

[paris]

lucky you

wow you're very optimistic if you think i'm lucky

went to shop today, narrowed choice of digital pianos on yamaha clp280 and kawai CA7, if somebody has experience with them, would be nice to share. both have nice sound and similar action, while yamaha is way expensive but has more different options. kawai has slightly nicer dinamic range and its cheaper. besides kawai is available at the moment while yamaha will be by the end of january. by that time my neighbour would end up either in sanatory or me in jail 

[BoliverAllmon]

I only have a 76 key casio POS keyboard. nothing too great at all. so therefore you are lucky just to have a real piano, and three is even better.

[zheer]

 
      
     If i can think of anything better i will tell you.

   just thought of something, you can try and win this competition and use the money to by a piano. Or you can purchase my electric yamaha clavinova for £250 ( only kidding ).
The problem with electric piano is that the keys get very light after a few years, but i will never forget haw happy i was as a child when my mother bought me that piano.

[etudes]

maybe you could ask the piano technician if there is any possibility to put the silence system of yahama (with electronic device)that you can play both as normal piano and electric (with headphone or amp) piano! i think i have heard about this system but never try my self maybe it is better idea than touching of electric piano
btw thank god that i dont have this problem in my house or in student apartment

[Jacey1973]

I really don't like electric pianos much, but i would love one to practise late at night or early in the morning on. I often get so bored in the evenings from 9pm onwards (when i stop playing because of the neighbours). I've entered a couple of competetions recently to win an electric piano...but no luck yet 

[leahcim]

wow you're very optimistic if you think i'm lucky

went to shop today, narrowed choice of digital pianos on yamaha clp280 and kawai CA7, if somebody has experience with them, would be nice to share. both have nice sound and similar action, while yamaha is way expensive but has more different options. kawai has slightly nicer dinamic range and its cheaper. besides kawai is available at the moment while yamaha will be by the end of january. by that time my neighbour would end up either in sanatory or me in jail 

If you're going to be listening on headphones [and if you're not, play the real piano ] I'd suggest getting a stage piano, without speakers. You'll probably save money.

In that sense, the Yamaha P90, Gem PRP 700 [in january] might be ideal.

More expensive, Gem Promega 2 or 3, Kawai mp4 or mp8, Roland rd700sx.

But if you really want furniture, try the gem rp800 as well.

If you care about the sound check out the Gems. The kawais have wooden keys though, which you might prefer [if that's the case, you've probably already found the furniture model to get]. Yamaha have the best, err, motorbikes

[g_s_223]

Anyone who just wants to do a bit of occasional late-night practice and is looking for a cheap solution can get an 88-key semi-weighted MIDI keyboard, and have it plugged into their PC. Here are a couple of fairly inexpensive examples from FATAR:
https://www.turnkey.co.uk/tkweb/stockdetail.jsp?sku=FATA-VMK88&context=BSTOCK
https://www.turnkey.co.uk/tkweb/stockdetail.jsp?sku=FATA-TMK88&context=WEB
Check whether you need a stand and sustain pedal as well.

Also you need some kind of notation program or sound synthesiser as well. I have Finale 2006, which comes with a sampled Steinway 'B' sound as part of the bundled Garritan Personal Orchestra: https://www.finalemusic.com/ , and the sound is quite reasonable given a reasonably up-to-date PC.

[paris]

thanx again for suggestions. after conversation with my teacher, i had to think about whole situation once again. she made it clear, actually she just confirmed what i thought before-digital piano isn't acustic, its different and can't bring much good to playing. its good while sightreading, or learning new pieces, but isn't the best solution for everyday practising. whole thing with touch is way different. only digital which i found slightly similar to real piano touch is yamaha clp280, rather pricy one. and even clp280 can't replace real piano.
she suggested few more options, one of them looks interesting, its about some device which you upgrade to acustic piano, and then you can play with headphones, in silence.
has anybody heard of something like that and if yes, is it available to yamaha uprights?(V124 model upright). 

[Kassaa]

It's definately available to Yamaha uprights, but I don't know if and where you can buy the system without the piano :') . You should look on the Yamaha website for silent system piano's.

[Dazzer]

I did mention to you Disklaviers. But that's abit on the expensive side

Unfortunately there's no current way of upgrading an upright to have such functions unless you totally rip out the insides of it. which means you may as well change it.


sorry:(

[jas]

The only thing about digital pianos, in my experience, is that the keys themselves are much louder than on a normal piano, which isn't so much a problem for the neighbours (it's not loud enough for them to hear) as it is for the people you live with. I have a Yamaha one, and the sound is good, but the keys are annoying if you've got the volume down too low to cover up the sound.
But still, a digital piano sounds like a good idea in this case. Personally, I would agree with your neighbour; I don't think 8am is a reasonable time to be making any kind of noise loud enough to keep your neighbours awake! I once lived in a flat where the people who lived next to me, right on the other side of my bedroom wall, started doing DIY at 7am. I could have shot them!

Jas

[jamie_liszt]

 The only time I will play the piano at 8am in the morning is if everyone in my house is awake, but anytime before 10am I use headphones. The only time I don't use headphones in the morning at 8am is if its a schoolday and everyone is up getting their childeren off to school, even then I have it turned down + doors and windows shut to keep the noise out. Anytime after 12 noon i belt the acoustic piano, for a couple of hours, at night if I practise i may use a soft pedal after 9pm or use the digital. So digital pianos come in handy, but i can't use it past 10pm because my sister is in bed then and my digital is 9 years old and isn't as quite as new ones with the headphones in. bump bump.. lol!

Anyway, can't you use the soft pedal ? i know i hate the soft pedal but damn i have to use it sometimes.

[leahcim]

she suggested few more options, one of them looks interesting, its about some device which you upgrade to acustic piano, and then you can play with headphones, in silence.
has anybody heard of something like that and if yes, is it available to yamaha uprights?(V124 model upright). 

They change the touch on uprights apparantly. Although I've played a few Yamaha silent pianos and didn't notice anything wrong with the action.

As others have said, Yamaha do a silent system. [Most of the models they sell have a silent option]

There are yamaha grandtouch digital pianos that have an acoustic action. Although it seems moot since most, if not all, digital pianos don't recreate the sound either.

Although if you thought the clp-280 had a decent action, aside from the wooden keys, it's the same action that's on all the yamaha clp-2xx models, the cheaper ones included afaiaa.

But, if there's a legal limit on the sound, whatever time of day you play, and you currently go over it, you still will go over that limit when you play the acoustic.  In other words, this doesn't necessarily solve the problem. You might be left playing the digital all the time, or spending money on soundproofing anyway, depending on who moves in next, or whether the existing neighbour doesn't decide that playing the acoustic at another time disturbs her - and now she'll know and say "Well, you've got a digital you can play that..."

[pianorama]

I definately think your neighbor is crazy, and 8am is pretty resonable, but it is a bit early. If you practiced between 9am to 9pm, I think that would be better.If you have to pay some huge fine or go to jail for playing quite music at 8am, this is a very sad, incompetent world. But since you are getting an digital piano, all this is unlikely.

[paris]

I definately think your neighbor is crazy, and 8am is pretty resonable, but it is a bit early. If you practiced between 9am to 9pm, I think that would be better.If you have to pay some huge fine or go to jail for playing quite music at 8am, this is a very sad, incompetent world. But since you are getting an digital piano, all this is unlikely.

finally someone who thinks 8am is reasonable! although i admit, it really is a bit early, even for me, well i have weird habits heh...don't know if i stated this before-i always use middle pedal on my upright when i practise so early, so, to be perfectly honest, i don't think my playing woke her up. besides, she goes to bed very late, and gets up very early, way earlier then 8am, which also means i couldn't woke her up.
after talking to many people about this problem, even advocate, i decided not to buy digital. according to him, my own right is to play piano from 6am-3pm, 5pm-10pm. of course, i'm not that mean to start at 6am, or play until 10pm...she haven't complained for few days, i guess she won't sue me, at least not yet. and if she really wants a trial, we'll have it. considering trial lasts like 5 years in croatia, by that time i won't live in my current place, so i win this one 

[etudes]

why dont you go to study abroad? (maybe in 2 years in Salzburg? )

[zheer]

Am happy for you paris, i think your parents must love you very much, since they were thinking of beying you a third piano.

[paris]

why dont you go to study abroad? (maybe in 2 years in Salzburg? )

suuure! i'd like to! more then 2 years if possible..
see you in 2007 there in salzburg...hopefully

Am happy for you paris, i think your parents must love you very much, since they were thinking of beying you a third piano.

lol zheer, actually i was going to spend my stipend money for buying the 3rd
but yes, you're right, they love me 

[gorbee natcase]

Have you ever heard of a bike chain and heavy metal pipe (bang bang wollop)