Orchestra versus Piano

[contrapunctus]

Which do you think has the greater capacity in subjects like dynamics, voice, tone, etc.?

I think the piano has greater capacities than the orchestra when played at its best. The

modern piano can reach FFF as loud or louder then an orchestra and PPP as soft or

softer than an orchestra. This was proved by Rubenstein. I think the piano has the

ability to play just as many voices as an orchestra can. Gould showed this. You can also

orchestrate on the piano, which is what Liszt did. Anybody who hasn't heard a Liszt

transcription of a Beethoven symphony should now. If played by a good pianist, you can

barely tell the difference. Do you consider the abilities of a piano to be the same as an

orchestra?


Oh, I forgot to mention that you can pick the strings for pizaccato and slam the pedals to make a drum effect.


This also warents the question, would you rather have a top flight orchestra at your disposal or a topflight pianist at your disposal, if the repertoire was the same?

I would pick the piano.

[stevie]

the orchestra 'has the greater capacity in subjects like dynamics, voice, tone, etc'

this is obvious, but what makes me love the piano is the individualism, the spontineity of expression, and the obvious psychological elements inherent in there just being one person there...the intimacy, directness, etc.
also the fascinating subject of piano technique has something to do with it's appeal...

but for sheer sound the orchestra wins, i consider the capabilities of an orchestra to be superior to the piano, but what youre saying, and i agree with, is that the people playing it are more important than the insturment theyre playing on.

[ryguillian]

Which do you think has the greater capacity in subjects like dynamics, voice, tone, etc.?

So many useless words! Next time you write a sentence, ask yourself, “Can I say the same thing in fewer words?” Also, think about the meaning of the words you use: dynamics, voice, tone, orchestrate, capacity, proved. (all of which you used vaguely or incorrectly)

OK, now to invalidate your claims:

The modern piano can reach FFF as loud or louder then [sic] an orchestra and PPP as soft or softer than an orchestra.

Firstly, dynamics are relative: a ppp after an fff is louder than a ppp after a pp. Since your claim is “the piano can be louder or quieter than an orchestra”, give figures in decibels (the unit for measuring loudness) to support your claim.

This was proved by Rubenstein.

Proved? Like somebody would prove something in mathematics? Perhaps demonstrated would be a better word. And if he did in fact prove this, I'd love to see the proof. ("...therefore, we can deduce that the piano is in fact louder than the orchestra.")

I think the piano has the ability to play just as many voices as an orchestra can.

No, you're wrong. For example, the micropolyphonic orchestral music of György Ligeti (works like the Kyrie movement from his Requiem or San Francisco Polyphony) which use dozens of polyphonic lines simultaneously could not be reproduced by the piano.

Gould showed this.

Oh? How?

You can also orchestrate on the piano, which is what Liszt did.

Dictionary.com defines orchestrate as: “To compose or arrange (music) for performance by an orchestra.” Did you mean that Liszt wrote his orchestral music while at the piano? Yes, this can (as many composers have demonstrated) be done.

Anybody who hasn't heard a Liszt transcription of a Beethoven symphony should now.

Anybody who hasn't heard Conlon Nancarrow's 36th Study should, now! (More relevant to this topic than Liszt's Beethoven arrangements)

If played by a good pianist, you can barely tell the difference.

Maybe you can't tell the difference, but I can (please, don't speak for me). Especially, in the last movement of the Ninth Symphony (pianos still have trouble singing lyrics).

Do you consider the abilities of a piano to be the same as an orchestra?

No, considering that they're two different things: an orchestra is a collection of instruments and a piano is a single instrument; similarly, a bicycle and a biplane have rather different abilities. The piano does have limitations (like all instruments); for example, it has a limited sound envelope: a strong attack and quick decay.

Oh, I forgot to mention that you can pick the strings for pizaccato and slam the pedals to make a drum effect.

Pizaccato? That's a new one. I've heard of pizzicato.

These are extended piano techniques and other include: using wood blocks to play large cluster chords, slamming down the keyboard cover, using various electronic amplification and distortion techniques, etc.

This also warents [sic] the question, would you rather have a top flight orchestra at your disposal or a topflight pianist at your disposal, if the repertoire was the same?

If the repertoire was the same? Well, in almost all cases, I'd rather hear the original version of an orchestra piece than a piano arrangement.

I would pick the piano.

OK?

As for Stevie:

but what youre saying, and i agree with, is that the people playing it are more important than the insturment theyre playing on.

It's obvious that this is not what he was saying: covering up his stupidity out of sympathy is harmful to this forum, and Contrapunctus himself.

In conclusion, Contrapunctus obviously doesn't care about the meaning of what he writes. He frequently misuses and misspells words, makes outrageous claims trying to pass them off as logical and sound. I would think that this would be discouraged on any serious (or semi-serious) forum. Sadly, I am the first one to mention this.

—Ryan

[Ruro]

Ryguillian, I watched a movie recently called... THE GRUDGE

And if we find out he isn't native to a country that sepaks English, then beware.. you may have to fold your entire post and remake a new argument

Despite the severe incorrectness of his post, I think the majority may have been grasped. But I further agree Ryguillian, it doesn't really set a good example to those new to the piano, they might find themselves learning the wrong terms O_o

[ryguillian]

And if we find out he isn't native to a country that sepaks English, then beware..

He's from the United States. Besides, his problems are not of language. They are rooted in his lack of logic and reason. Somebody not skilled in English could speak in simple terms and still be logical and coherent.

Despite the severe incorrectness of his post, I think the majority may have been grasped. But I further agree Ryguillian, it doesn't really set a good example to those new to the piano, they might find themselves learning the wrong terms O_o

You agree with me yet don't take the time to proofread your post.

—Ryan

[Ruro]

Well, I'm SORRY if I got a friggin D in English Language, kill me for it.

I seriously realise I lack bad sentence structuring skills, it's why every post I type turns into a friggin essay, simply because I am such a dumb-ass, I admit it.

Hell, I just finished my 3 month probation for where I work today, and when he was trying to describe... he used words that I should DEFINATELY know by my age, but you know what? I am an IDIOT, and I swear I have some memory disorder as well, cause I still can't remember more then 5 Product codes for the products themselves after working there so long.

I think I beat you to it, I officially proved I'm an idiot.

This is where you say, "I wasn't trying to prove that, I'm simply trying to prove X" (X = What you're trying to prove of course).

And... basicaly, you'll twist whatever I write now, so I'll just let you insult me or whatever.

(And I know your gonna think, OMFG he's over-reacting OR, OMFG, please, or better yet, you weren't trying to insult me at... see I could go on, I'll never get used to the Internet world).

Still, now I have calmed down and got that outta my system, Sorry I wrote a crap-ass post, and that I became the definition of Ironic/Hypocrite, whatever.

Apologies for the swearing, I believe the Forum blanks it out for me.

I still agree with you though Ryan, despite my last and this present post being so contradictory.

EDIT: Forum must be American Based, didn't blank out the swear words, I saw Jackie Chan say Crap on Fox Kids Channel once, how the hell does he get away with that? And I'm sorry if the word Hell offends your religion, ban me for it.

Ignore this, continue with the topic.

[leahcim]

EDIT: I saw Jackie Chan say Crap on Fox Kids Channel once, how the hell does he get away with that?

It prepares them for the crap they'll hear on their news channel later in life?

[contrapunctus]

In conclusion, Contrapunctus obviously doesn't care about the meaning of what he writes. He frequently misuses and misspells words, makes outrageous claims trying to pass them off as logical and sound. I would think that this would be discouraged on any serious (or semi-serious) forum. Sadly, I am the first one to mention this.

First, I would like to point out that this is an internet forum. Nothing ever said here will come back in real life to haunt you. So, essentially, what you say on this forum does not matter whatsoever. This means, there is no reason to make pains for grammatical correctness, spelling, and word usage as long as the general meaning is understandable. As for people like Ryguillian who are perfectionists, I really don't want to die from a stroke when I am thirty.

As for my topic, I know it is essentially bullshit, I just wanted to ask the question, would rather be in control of a virtuoso pianist or an orchestra? I choose piano.

[cfortunato]

Ryguillian says:
[[Also, think about the meaning of the words you use: dynamics, voice, tone, orchestrate, capacity, proved. (all of which you used vaguely or incorrectly)]]

For God's sake, don't you know that the period goes after the closing parenthesis?  What sort of semi-illiterate ARE you?

Ryguillian says:
[[Since your claim is “the piano can be louder or quieter than an orchestra”,]]

The comma always goes before the quotation mark, even if it is not part of the actual quote.   Commas following quotation marks are an insult to this message board.  You obviously pay no attention to what you are writing.

Ryguillian says:
[[Anybody who hasn't heard Conlon Nancarrow's 36th Study should, now! (More relevant to this topic than Liszt's Beethoven arrangements)]]

The parenthetical phrase above is a nearly indecipherable sentence fragment, and you fail to use a period at the end of it.  Did you mean "IT IS more relevant"?

Ryguillian says:
[[He frequently misuses and misspells words, makes outrageous claims trying to pass them off as logical and sound.]]

Pardon me, but that should be, "He frequently misuses and misspells words, AND makes outrageous claims trying to pass them off as logical and sound."

Ryguillian says:
[[I would think that this would be discouraged on any serious (or semi-serious) forum. Sadly, I am the first one to mention this.]]

That's because people who obsess over grammar and spelling on message boards are a-holes.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

That's because people who obsess over grammar and spelling on message boards are a-holes.

now u yourself said that. 

i agree with ryan, 100%. the grammar and spelling thingy weren't really his main point there.

plus, i don't agree that we should NOT point out the grammar and spelling of contrapunctus because he tried to sound logical. of course, he'd do that because his opinion was that it is the piano which is superior to the orchestra. it is quite harmful for beginning pianists in this forum to be misled.

Which do you think has the greater capacity in subjects like dynamics, voice, tone, etc.?

I think the piano has greater capacities than the orchestra when played at its best. The

modern piano can reach FFF as loud or louder then an orchestra and PPP as soft or

softer than an orchestra. This was proved by Rubenstein. I think the piano has the

ability to play just as many voices as an orchestra can. Gould showed this. You can also

orchestrate on the piano, which is what Liszt did. Anybody who hasn't heard a Liszt

transcription of a Beethoven symphony should now. If played by a good pianist, you can

barely tell the difference. Do you consider the abilities of a piano to be the same as an

orchestra?


Oh, I forgot to mention that you can pick the strings for pizaccato and slam the pedals to make a drum effect.


This also warents the question, would you rather have a top flight orchestra at your disposal or a topflight pianist at your disposal, if the repertoire was the same?

I would pick the piano.

ok. i know you were meaning it to be really a BS introduction in order to get to a question... but for the sake of those who might take your BS seriously:


dynamics?

of course, the orchestra! say, 40 instruments playing a FF in a beethoven symphony is definitely louder than any FFF on the piano.

tone?

of course, the orchestra!! having 40 instruments means numerous combinations of instruments which will create different tones.

voices?

gould didn't play different voices. he had shades of tonal color. on the other hand, an orchestra can play a fugue with 4 different voices.

Rubinstein?

nah, i don't think so! yes, he was a great pianist, anyone would agree. but he didn't prove anything like that to the piano world.

orchestrate on the piano?

yeah... ok... but remember that it's just a borrowed term for the piano. we have the orchestra, because we orchestrate.


you ask:
"This also warents the question, would you rather have a top flight orchestra at your disposal or a topflight pianist at your disposal, if the repertoire was the same?"

knowing that almost all of us here are pianists, i wouldn't ask this question. of course, i choose orchestra... who wouldn't want to use it (at my disposal?) for playing piano concertos.

anyways, the piano is superior to the orchestra in OTHER stuffs. and stevie said what i had in mind.

the orchestra 'has the greater capacity in subjects like dynamics, voice, tone, etc'

this is obvious, but what makes me love the piano is the individualism, the spontineity of expression, and the obvious psychological elements inherent in there just being one person there...the intimacy, directness, etc.
also the fascinating subject of piano technique has something to do with it's appeal...

[ryguillian]

Perhaps if you (cfortunato) would've read my messages in detail you would have realized that this isn't my pedantic attempt to point out somebody's bad grammar and spelling (although these obviously exist everywhere on this forum and elsewhere). Rather, I was stating that garbage claims like those made by Contrapunctus go unquestioned on the forum. In fact, people (as Stevie demonstrated) go out of their way to cover up for Contrapunctus wild claims and general stupidity. But then again, fighting against this, is, as George Orwell said—sardonically—a "sentimental archaism."

—Ryan

P.S. crazy for ivan moravec: I'm glad you understood me. But, really, loudness is never measured in terms of dynamic markings but rather decibels. Things like sound envelope must also be considered. The reason a piano sticks out so much is because of its unique sound envelope. Also, in terms of loudness, an orchestra is louder than a piano and a gong is much louder than an orchestra. Also, Gould could play a four voice fugue on the piano and so can many other pianists.

[leahcim]

As Bill Gates said "People of America, I have a vision. A microcomputer in every home, in every library, on every school desk. By the 21st century I have a vision that we will have the the technology to witness a buffoon who thinks he's Gould and another who thinks he is George Orwell arguing over which should be sent to bed early"

[ryguillian]

As Bill Gates said "People of America, I have a vision. A microcomputer in every home, in every library, on every school desk. By the 21st century I have a vision that we will have the the technology to witness a buffoon who thinks he's Gould and another who thinks he is George Orwell arguing over which should be sent to bed early"

What the hell are you talking about?

—Ryan

[leahcim]

What the hell are you talking about?

I was writing a book and my spell checker wasn't working so I thought I'd use this thread.