Current events

[lisztisforkids]

What are your views on current events? Such as... The continuing rise of Militant/radical Islam, Red Chinas growing military, Iran/N.Korea Nukes, world poverty,  Stem cell research.....

[pianistimo]

We can't ressurrect ourselves, but we can kill.  that's my view.  oops.  i mean, we shouldn't kill but it's the natural instinct for people to just obliterate themselves. to be greedy.  there HAVE been a few peaceful people like ghandi, king, m. theresa, even princess diana promoted a certain peaceful love toward those with aids and those who were hurt with landmines.  but, it seems that these people live too short of lives (except maybe ghandi and m. theresa).  Christ died at 33.  that seems very young to me.  but, they had a mission and accomplished it.

that must be why Christ said we should be like little children.  they love. they forgive.  the make peace.  they listen and obey.  they trust.  stuff that we are not used to doing in today's society.

[leahcim]

that must be why Christ said we should be like little children.  they love. they forgive.  the make peace.  they listen and obey.  they trust.  stuff that we are not used to doing in today's society.

Kids are impressionable, yes, but not stupid.

Christ's dilemma here isn't horrific acts that abuse trust. His problem is the people we trust as very young kids break that trust in a variety of, eventually obvious, albeit banal and unnecessary ways. Often in the name of "fun" or a quiet life.

e.g If your kids don't believe in Santa, and they ever have, they have no reason to trust you 100% again.

If you reach the age of 5 and still have someone around who you still completely trust and, even if it's unknown to you at that age, they have never lied to you to make that complete trust unfounded, that'd be a miracle. Let alone if you could "be like children" by the time you are any older.

[pianistimo]

hmmm.  my dad died when i was two, so i never really missed what i never had.  i wouldn't say traditions make kids not trust (though i don't believe in teaching santa to my own children) - but more serious things - not giving them the most attention you can - being impatient - angry.  all of us parents are guilty of some of this sometime or other.  about the only way to overcome it is to go back to the child and say 'i'm sorry.'  sometimes it takes a while for that openness to come back (as with adults).  don't push it - but always make yourself available.  that's what i'm learning.  my middle daughter is very suspicious when i'm on the internet and sort of monitors me like i monitor her.  she says - why do you want to be on the internet at night (on piano forum).  sometimes when i can't sleep - i go on.  she doesn't like this.  she's probably right!  she is too smart for her age and often resists my reasoning.

[leahcim]

hmmm.  my dad died when i was two, so i never really missed what i never had.

Yeah I'd wondered that a while ago because of the way you mentioned, a few times, God as a father figure and how you see his relationship with people as that of a parent. I think the first time you mentioned it my response was something like "Eh? Parents are people not Gods" but the penny dropped eventually.

i wouldn't say traditions make kids not trust

It's not traditional things. Although Santa is traditional it's not that aspect of it.

It's saying [teaching or whatever] something you know not to be true and don't believe is true yourself to someone couched in terms that it is the truth. If they believe it because of the trust they have in you then evidently you're breaking that trust when / if they find out that it wasn't true _and_ you knew that.

Santa is a good example because seemingly the vast majority of people believe that manipulating their impressionable kids in this way has some kind of charm and is a good thing. [Although some might argue that teaching kids not to trust blindly isn't a bad lesson to get from it, in a relatively harmless way. Most arguments when I mention it are of the "you're a miserable git" variety though ]

[Atheists often combine Santa with religion. Seeing them both as examples of telling kids myths as though they are true. Although I'd agree with them that the reason it's believed at that age is largely the same thing. From the trust angle most parents that teach their kids about God do actually believe what they are saying]

But parents / teachers and so on, do it with a multitude of other things day in, day out in the interests of "protecting" their kids, or themselves from certain subjects [storks bringing babies and such like] or for quiet life "No, the park is closed on Sunday" rather than "I'm a lazy git and I can't be bothered to take you there" and so on.

Basically imo making the idea that there is anyone we can 100% trust by the time we can understand what they are saying highly unlikely. Worse perhaps [because most of us probably want to be trusted by others] we learn to do the same thing. So the very people who we have contact with that might trust us 100% from day one, don't even get out of nappies before we're messing it up.

[pianistimo]

true.  the experimentation process never ends for parents.  with the first child - you realize you can't pull one over on them anyway (not that i was trying to lie - but when you are tired you just say things sometimes).  then, the second one - you're prepared for it and just explain things the best you can.  and the last one,  you just say 'i don't know.' 

i told my son that there was a God and that he was always looking out for Him.  he immediately went out on the patio table - got up - looked up at the sky and said 'i don't see Him.'  disregarding his doubt, but not sure how to help him understand something he couldn't see - i continued to teach him out of the bible for 5-6 more years and taught him what it says about right and wrong.

with my daughter, pretty much the same thing.  i homeschooled her in kindergarten - and we talked about creation.  then, she went to public school and heard the other side of the story.  i really hope that what the bible says about 'train up a child in the way he/she should go - and when they are OLD they will not depart from it.'

with the smallest one, i have no energy to homeschool, so i buy these workbooks at walmart and let her do it on her own time - so i do the best i can and talk with her when we are sitting around or playing.  we have a game that is called 'manners' so at least she'll have some when she goes to school (hopefully).  i try to explain about God to her, but at 4 it's still a hard concept.  i tell her the same thing - that He's looking out for her. 

somehow i feel like a failed parent because my kids push my buttons all the time.  but, at least i know i stick to what i believe better - and my husband, too.  so we try to be an example of what we say.  parenting is the craziest situation i've ever encountered, but the most fun, too.  now i see why my mom prayed for me.  she'd always say 'i'm praying for you.'  and i'd think what for? 

[Siberian Husky]

i would never homeschool my child...

[Siberian Husky]

to add on what i briefly stated....why would anyone homeschool a child other than for physical or health related reasons?..why would you deprive your child of so much growth?..yes i understand that sheltering your child from the horrific realities are comforting and your intentions are well as far as keeping your kids safe...but if you must isolate your children from the realities of the world then really your just questioning your own integrity as a parent...a true compatent parent will have peace of mind when their child is at a public school surrounded by sex violence and drugs... a child's attitude is a direct reflection from the leadership is gets...

ive met many many maaaaany peers my age that have been home schooled..and let me tell you...you can see it in their disposition that they lacked in social and common skills..these are the ones that go blank when they get their first job at a department store and get chewed out by a customer..the real world is tough..and i'd like my children (if i ever have any) to know that from the start...they will have all the support they could ever want from me thats for sure...but would i shelter them and fabricate some fake reality with no TV, video games, or public schools?..no..not at all..i have confidence in my support and leadership..in turn having confidence in my child...my mother saw this as a very functional system...well she really didnt have a choice...single mother working full time minimum wage jobs with no financial room for babysitting...me and my older sister grew up on the inner city of san francisco..walked to school from 1st grade through the downtown...was the best thing that ever happened to me..and im a better person for it....

[pianistimo]

i don't doubt many of the things that you are saying.  my son had troubles reading in 1st grade - so after half the school year - i pulled him out.  taught him basic reading, english, grammar, math, science and art.  there are a lot more homeschool resources now than were in the past.  basically, many mothers are getting together and pooling resources.

anyway, as i mentioned, all my children are in public school now and are 'socialized.'  (not that they couldn't be in homeschool).  they were way more polite when i taught them at home, btw.  but, i see their happiness at being integrated, too, into the community - so i agree with you about having lots of friends and activities. 

my daughter is a straight A student, and my son is getting better at being self-motivated.  a lot of his difficulties at first (in primer grades) have been overcome by my being persistent that he not get left behind (which would have happened with class size large) in 1st grade. 

also, his handwriting was somewhat atrocious.  they don't really check that anymore or make kids write legibly in first grade.  i did at home.  it may seem ridiculous to some - but i think it's helped him write better now. 

[zheer]

What are your views on current events? Such as... The continuing rise of Militant/radical Islam,

   As a muslim, am not happy. Because they give islam a bad name. I mean its probably a good idea at times not to mention the fact that i am a muslim, since as an individual i dont want to be represented by a group of  radiacl monsters. Man i dont think i can kill a chicken.

[pianistimo]

many christians give christianity a bad name,too. so don't feel bad!  guess that it's all about learning to be careful not to offend.  diplomats have to learn to do this, but nobody is really taught in school - seriously.

[zheer]

Pianistimo, i say many terrible things but i will never act on them, or really mean what i say.

[lisztisforkids]

many christians give christianity a bad name,too. so don't feel bad!  guess that it's all about learning to be careful not to offend.  diplomats have to learn to do this, but nobody is really taught in school - seriously.

Christians dont fly planes into skysrapers. But its also sad that there are many, many, peacefull musims that are getting a bad name. Sorry Zheer.. Dont mean to offend you.

[zheer]

Christians dont fly planes into skysrapers. But its also sad that there are many, many, peacefull musims that are getting a bad name. Sorry Zheer.. Dont mean to offend you.

   No worries, you have made a very good, notice haw things have changed,
 Christians VS Muslims.

[leahcim]

Christians dont fly planes into skysrapers.

https://history1900s.about.com/library/misc/blempirecrash.htm

[prometheus]

Christians dont fly planes into skysrapers. But its also sad that there are many, many, peacefull musims that are getting a bad name. Sorry Zheer.. Dont mean to offend you.

Two people did it only once. You could call them muslim. So what?

Do you realise that christians have killed people? And a lot ot them too? The reason why christians aren't suicide bombers is because of two reasons. They don't view suicide as a sin, well actually the scriptures do but because of cultural reasons it is accepted. Second, they don't have much of a choice. If they could kill their enemies in a more effective way then they would.

Do you also realise some palestinians are christian? Do you realise some of the christian clerics encorage and praise these suicide attacks against the Israeli military or even civilians? Actually one of them was rather outspoken about it and put out of function.

What about some of those mass suicide christian sects?

What if they had just as much aircrafts as we in the west have. Would they still need suicide attacks?

[lisztisforkids]

Two people did it only once. You could call them muslim. So what?

Do you realise that christians have killed people? And a lot ot them too? The reason why christians aren't suicide bombers is because of two reasons. They don't view suicide as a sin, well actually the scriptures do but because of cultural reasons it is accepted. Second, they don't have much of a choice. If they could kill their enemies in a more effective way then they would.

Do you also realise some palestinians are christian? Do you realise some of the christian clerics encorage and praise these suicide attacks against the Israeli military or even civilians? Actually one of them was rather outspoken about it and put out of function.

What about some of those mass suicide christian sects?

What if they had just as much aircrafts as we in the west have. Would they still need suicide attacks?

?? Calm down man. I am in no way defending Christianity. Nor am I anti-Islamic. You should know that by now.  Ofcourse Christians have killed people. But Christians do not strap explosives to their chest and walk into a school, Christians do not beleive that killing a Jew or an American and dying in the process will bring them to heaven. You are wrong, they kill people in this manner because they wish to become martyrs, and go to heaven. Christianity does not force its woman to wear veils over thier heads. Many people in Islamic country's do not even beleive the Holocaust even happened, they say its a myth....

Again you are wrong: Sucide bombers kill innocent people in Cafes, Funerals, Weddings.. These are not Military targets, but civilians.

I am not Christian, but I am definetly not Muslim. I do not condem peacefull muslims, I do condemm Militant/Radical Islam, AND Radical Christianity. Christianity is flawed in many ways, but it does not advocate the killing of innocent people.

By the way, I do not support Mr.Bush at all, In case you thought I did.

[leahcim]

Christians do not strap explosives to their chest and walk into a school

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_massacre

https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/troubles/

https://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_n5_v115/ai_20334585

[prometheus]

The point is you are inaccurate and just wrong.

There are jewish and christian martyrs en butchers. These people do think they will get rewarded by god. The US did bomb a wedding in Afghanistan, killing like 50 people. If we go back in history, in the crusades christians slaughtered whole cities. What about the inquisitions?

Hitler was a christian. Can he be held responsible for the holocaust because he is a christian? The vatican must have known about the holocaust happening, like many people, but they didn't do anything. "Wir haben es nicht gewußt"

The French government ordered their secret agents to blow up Greenpeace's ship, killing one person. Are abortion clinics military targets?

What about christians involved in conflicts in Africa and Indonesia? Do they act any better than muslims or hindu's? Actually, it turns out that even buddhists don't always turn out much better that normal people. For example the thai government has lashed out with they order police against peaceful muslim demonstrators, using excessive force. Now I symphatise with buddhist ideas but I do realise it does not turn people into 'good people'. These people have very different views that most Tibetan buddhists. Also realise that in the case of Tibet the buddhist clerics had to make a lot of effort to stop the violence against the chinese occupant.

Russian secret service probably bombed 'their own' flats to frame Chechnya.

What about the genocides in the new world? The native populations of the america's were largely whiped out. Add in the slave trade too. It seems us europeans didn't oppose slavery because we were christians.

WWI and WWII are both christians fighting christians. The same is true for the cold war. Christians vs christians. And Europe has a violent history. The moment we turned christian we didn't change our ways. Even more shocking, after our countries became democracies that also didn't change.

The IRA bombed civilians.

Ok the worst things that happened, estimates:

Rank    Death Toll    Cause    Centuries
1    55 million    Second World War    20C
2    40 million    Mao Zedong (mostly famine)    20C
3    40 million    Mongol Conquests    13C
4    36 million    An Lushan Revolt    8C
5    25 million    Fall of the Ming Dynasty    17C
6    20 million    Taiping Rebellion    19C
7    20 million    Annihilation of the American Indians    15C-19C
8    20 million    Iosif Stalin    20C
9    19 million    Mideast Slave Trade    7C-19C
10    18 million    Atlantic Slave Trade    15C-19C
11    17 million    Timur Lenk    14C-15C
12    17 million    British India (mostly famine)    19C
13    15 million    First World War    20C
14    9 million    Russian Civil War    20C
15    9 million    Thuggee    13C-19C
16    8 million    Fall of Rome    3C-5C
17    8 million    Congo Free State    19C-20C
18    7 million    Thirty Years War    17C
19    5 million    Russia's Time of Troubles    16C-17C
20    4 million    Napoleonic Wars    19C
21    3 million    Chinese Civil War    20C
22    3 million    French Wars of Religion    16C

The point is, christians don't turn out to be any better than other people.

[zheer]

Sheesh a vey educated reply by prometheus, well in that case we can mention IRAQ, and that since the attack, muslims continue to die nedlessy by muslime and by the dirt that american troops drop on people in their fighter bomber, haw about the torcher of the many inocent prisiners, not to mention the numerous murders. Anyway the fact that the war is illegal should be a cause for concern.

[prometheus]

Ooh, let me add another very strong example I forgot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Chatila_Massacre

Christian arabs killed the palastine muslims under the eyes of the Israeli military. Actually a Israeli commission found Sharon to be 'indirectly responsible'.

[pianistimo]

we are each responsible for ourselves, no matter the government in place.  abraham lincoln, despite pressure, resisted the idea of slavery.  so did william penn, who actually set up refuge for all religions in the state of pennsylvania.  instead of warring, they tried to find peaceful solutions.

[lisztisforkids]

The point is you are inaccurate and just wrong.

There are jewish and christian martyrs en butchers. These people do think they will get rewarded by god. The US did bomb a wedding in Afghanistan, killing like 50 people. If we go back in history, in the crusades christians slaughtered whole cities. What about the inquisitions?

Hitler was a christian. Can he be held responsible for the holocaust because he is a christian? The vatican must have known about the holocaust happening, like many people, but they didn't do anything. "Wir haben es nicht gewußt"

The French government ordered their secret agents to blow up Greenpeace's ship, killing one person. Are abortion clinics military targets?

What about christians involved in conflicts in Africa and Indonesia? Do they act any better than muslims or hindu's? Actually, it turns out that even buddhists don't always turn out much better that normal people. For example the thai government has lashed out with they order police against peaceful muslim demonstrators, using excessive force. Now I symphatise with buddhist ideas but I do realise it does not turn people into 'good people'. These people have very different views that most Tibetan buddhists. Also realise that in the case of Tibet the buddhist clerics had to make a lot of effort to stop the violence against the chinese occupant.

Russian secret service probably bombed 'their own' flats to frame Chechnya.

What about the genocides in the new world? The native populations of the america's were largely whiped out. Add in the slave trade too. It seems us europeans didn't oppose slavery because we were christians.

WWI and WWII are both christians fighting christians. The same is true for the cold war. Christians vs christians. And Europe has a violent history. The moment we turned christian we didn't change our ways. Even more shocking, after our countries became democracies that also didn't change.

The IRA bombed civilians.

Ok the worst things that happened, estimates:

Rank    Death Toll    Cause    Centuries
1    55 million    Second World War    20C
2    40 million    Mao Zedong (mostly famine)    20C
3    40 million    Mongol Conquests    13C
4    36 million    An Lushan Revolt    8C
5    25 million    Fall of the Ming Dynasty    17C
6    20 million    Taiping Rebellion    19C
7    20 million    Annihilation of the American Indians    15C-19C
8    20 million    Iosif Stalin    20C
9    19 million    Mideast Slave Trade    7C-19C
10    18 million    Atlantic Slave Trade    15C-19C
11    17 million    Timur Lenk    14C-15C
12    17 million    British India (mostly famine)    19C
13    15 million    First World War    20C
14    9 million    Russian Civil War    20C
15    9 million    Thuggee    13C-19C
16    8 million    Fall of Rome    3C-5C
17    8 million    Congo Free State    19C-20C
18    7 million    Thirty Years War    17C
19    5 million    Russia's Time of Troubles    16C-17C
20    4 million    Napoleonic Wars    19C
21    3 million    Chinese Civil War    20C
22    3 million    French Wars of Religion    16C

The point is, christians don't turn out to be any better than other people.

Stop being a fool.. I am not trying to pick on anybody. But I will defend myself now.

Crusades: Christians slaughtered Muslims, Muslims slauhtered Chrisitans. Your point?

Hitler was not a Christian, he was a secularist. The Vatican did not take anybodys side in World War 2.

Since when did the French goverment endorse Christianity as its official religon?

Chechnya for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis

I am not saying Christianity is much better than anybody else.... Yes native old world populations were wipied out in the name of 'Christianity, and 'God'.

WWI and WWII was a free world vs. the Fasisicm of Hitler, and his Allies, No Christianity here.
The USSR bruttlay suppressed the church, if you knew annything about communism you would know that communism does not tolerate religon an any form. So how could the cold war have been Christians vs. Christians? I will grant you that yes, the US is the most Christian country in the world. But it does not openly enodrse Christianity as its state religon as does Arab country;s and Islam.

The IRA has never, ever, intentially bombed civilans.

Your list of conflicts is ridiculos, only a few are conflicts caused by Chrisitans. You are pretty much just pulling out every conflict and blaming Chrisitnas for them. You are false almot every time.
Example: Fall of Rome: Nomadic herders (goths, huns) finally sack and destroy CHRISTIAN ROME.


I got one for your list. Saddam Hussein. (I am not defending american policy) He killed millions of people, he was Sunni. Now in Iraq its Muslims killing Musilms again... By Suicide bombers.

I know of no other religon in the world that outright calls for the destruction of Israel. Irans president a little while ago, openly called for Israel to be wiped off the map.

Now... You tell me why its ok for people to kill hijack planes and fly them into skysrapers and kill 3,000 people in the name of God.

I will say it again since you dident hear me the first time: I am not Anti-Islamic, I am not pro-Christian. I react to what I see.

[prometheus]

Stop being a fool.. I am not trying to pick on anybody. But I will defend myself now.

I do not know if you realise it, but you already did.

Crusades: Christians slaughtered Muslims, Muslims slauhtered Chrisitans. Your point?

Christians are just as bad as muslims, which you opposed.

Hitler was not a Christian, he was a secularist. The Vatican did not take anybodys side in World War 2.

As far as I know he was christians. The second is way way off. The Vatican even got their own sovergn state by supporting Mussolini in his coup. A rumored Concordat between the vatican and the naz's lacks evidence. Partly because of the vatican's secrecy. Catholisism was the only recognised religion in Hitler's Third Reich.

Since when did the French goverment endorse Christianity as its official religon?

Chechnya for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis

So? Surely the conflict in that region is a very dirty one. And since we are on this topic, the conflict is mainly an ethnic one, not a religious one.

I am not saying Christianity is much better than anybody else.... Yes native old world populations were wipied out in the name of 'Christianity, and 'God'.

Ok, that was my point. Though I did not really claim new world civilizations got killed in the name of God solely. It was probably largely xenophobia.

WWI and WWII was a free world vs. the Fasisicm of Hitler, and his Allies, No Christianity here.

I am not saying the motivation was religion. But the major countries were christian ones. Being christian doesn't seem to make people more peaceful. Do note God was used in propaganda. For example "GOTT MIT UNS" on german helmets and belts.

The USSR bruttlay suppressed the church, if you knew annything about communism you would know that communism does not tolerate religon an any form. So how could the cold war have been Christians vs. Christians? I will grant you that yes, the US is the most Christian country in the world. But it does not openly enodrse Christianity as its state religon as does Arab country;s and Islam."

Let me get this right. Russia vs the rebellion minorities in the caucasus area is a religios conflic (muslim vs christians) but the USSR wasn't christian at all? The US is probably not the most christian country in the world but I am not sure. I don't really care about it enough to look up the numbers. Itali and Poland probably score high also. I do remember that Rwanda called itself the most christian country in the world. So it may be high up there too. Plus, don't forget south america.

The IRA has never, ever, intentially bombed civilans.

Ooh come on. How can you say this?

Your list of conflicts is ridiculos, only a few are conflicts caused by Chrisitans. You are pretty much just pulling out every conflict and blaming Chrisitnas for them. You are false almot every time.
Example: Fall of Rome: Nomadic herders (goths, huns) finally sack and destroy CHRISTIAN ROME.

I never said christianity caused those conflicts. My point was it did nothing to prevent them. I did not make the list and it was meant to inform about the worst atrocities. I don't blame christianity. If you read my post more careful you would already know. I actually go into some detail.

I got one for your list. Saddam Hussein. (I am not defending american policy) He killed millions of people, he was Sunni. Now in Iraq its Muslims killing Musilms again... By Suicide bombers.

He didn't kill enough to make that list. The estimate on Saddam Hussain is about 300 000 and another million in the Iran-Iraq war.

About his being a sunni, thats more ethnicity than religion. I think most experts on Hussain will claim he isn't very religious. He attacked Iran because they were fundamentalist Islamic. Teriq Aziz was a christian and Saddam was careful to protect christians in Iraq. Ironicly these people, and the jewish people in Iraq also, may get in trouble when democracy turns Iraq into a fundamentalist muslim state.

I know of no other religon in the world that outright calls for the destruction of Israel. Irans president a little while ago, openly called for Israel to be wiped off the map.

If they were christian this guy would say the same. Some christians in the US want to nuke Mekka. This guy is a religios nut. Its just that Israel is their enemy.

Now... You tell me why its ok for people to kill hijack planes and fly them into skysrapers and kill 3,000 people in the name of God.

Why would I want to?

I will say it again since you dident hear me the first time: I am not Anti-Islamic, I am not pro-Christian. I react to what I see.

I would say I am anti-islamic.

[arensky]

As far as I know he was christians. The second is way way off. The Vatican even got their own sovergn state by supporting Mussolini in his coup. A rumored Concordat between the vatican and the naz's lacks evidence. Partly because of the vatican's secrecy. Catholisism was the only recognised religion in Hitler's Third Reich.

Hitler believed in nothing but Hitler. Christianity was to be replaced with a revival of the Norse gods, some kind of weird twisted Aryan sheet. This may have been more of Himmler's and the SS's thing. I am in the middle of practicing Gershwin's Preludes (good Russian Jewish American music  ) and cannot recall the specifics at the moment. However you must not confuse Mussolini and Hitler. During Mussolini's coup (1922) Hitler wa a little known rabble rouser hanging out with cementheads in beer halls in Bavaria. He had not yet launched the aboritve "Putsch" of 1923, which first brought him notoriety. Mussolini mollified the Vatican by making the Vatican sovereign again, and by doing this shored up his power base among Italian Catholic religious conservatives. Italy is almost completely Roman Catholic, I know that Germany is not, I don't have exact figures. Anyway it is an historical misconception to view Mussolini as Hitler's stooge, although that is how things turned out evantually. After Austrian nazis assasinated the Austrian Prime Minister Dollfuss in 1934 and there was the possibility of German takeover, Mussolini moved the  Italian army to the strategic passes that lead to Austria, as a warning to Hitler not to intervene. These two became bedfellows only after the Italian invasion of Ethiopia in 1935.  Italy became an international pariah, and Hitler needed an ally. Funny how necessity turns rivals into allies...

Yes the Vatican turned a blind eye to fascist atrocities during the 30's and 40's, there is ample evidence of that. But this thread is current events. Perhaps I will start a WWII thread, we are an international forum and that might be an interesting disscussion, as long as the war doesn't reignite!

[leahcim]

The IRA has never, ever, intentially bombed civilans.

Eh? Are you talking about your Aunty Ira?

They've set off bombs in the middle of towns and shopping centres [not to mention the regular kneecappings and other "punishments" they dish out]

The other Christian side of the troubles are no different either.

[arensky]

The estimate on Saddam Hussain is about 300 000 and another million in the Iran-Iraq war.

About his being a sunni, thats more ethnicity than religion. I think most experts on Hussain will claim he isn't very religious. He attacked Iran because they were fundamentalist Islamic. Teriq Aziz was a christian and Saddam was careful to protect christians in Iraq. Ironicly these people, and the jewish people in Iraq also, may get in trouble when democracy turns Iraq into a fundamentalist muslim state.

If they were christian this guy would say the same. Some christians in the US want to nuke Mekka. This guy is a religios nut. Its just that Israel is their enemy.

I would say I am anti-islamic.

Like Hitler Saddam cared about nothing but himself and his own cult of personality. Manipulation of religion is just another tool in their schemes to control their nations (Mussolini too). He attacked Iran in 1980 (?) because they were weak at that point in time, their military commanders and staff mostly fled with the Shah. The religious angle was a propaganda tool to galvanise support among his people. Yes he protected Christians, he did not want to anger the West, who buy the oil.

What makes you so sure Iraq will become a fundamentalist state? There is that possibilty, but I would not make a blanket prophecy regarding middle eastern affairs. They are unpredictable.

However the election of  President Ahmadinejad (who you have described as "a religious nut") lends creedence to your prophecy. More of the idiocy of hatred; Iran under the Shah (A CIA MI5 tool) supported Israel and exported oil to them, because of the sunni/shiite division AND Ethnic differences; Iranians VS Arabs, skillfully and cynically exploited by the Shah. And yet the religious thing is a more powerful catalyst for hatred than race, as this points out, IMO. Better to hate another religion than another brand of your own religion. BTW Americans at this point in time just want to get the hell out of the middle east, do not understand why they are there and are increasingly interested in energy alternatives to oil, and are buying more and more hybrid vehicles every year. Nuke Mecca? Yeah we have a few wingnuts and so do you and everyone else.

I am sorry you are anti-Islamic. It's not Islam, it's their wingnuts. See how easy it is to get sucked into the vortex? Avoid, avoid.....

[arensky]

Eh? Are you talking about your Aunty Ira?

They've set off bombs in the middle of towns and shopping centres, and they regulary kneecap people and issue other "punishments"

The other Christian side of the troubles are no different either.

Ira Gershwin would never do those things!!! 

[lisztisforkids]

Eh? Are you talking about your Aunty Ira?

They've set off bombs in the middle of towns and shopping centres [not to mention the regular kneecappings and other "punishments" they dish out]

The other Christian side of the troubles are no different either.

I think I misunderstood, are you guys talking about the 'Irish Republican army'? If so, than I apologize, ofcourse they are quite violent.

[leahcim]

I think I misunderstood, are you guys talking about the 'Irish Republican army'?

Yes, that's them. No worries.

It sounds like I gave people called Ira a sex change too...unless it can be both.