need help on schumann concerto in am

[crazy for ivan moravec]

in the first few measures of the 1st movement, after the opening chords comes the famous theme... C-B-A-A...

my question is, can/should that theme be slower than the tempo that i give to the opening chords? my teacher insists that it should be the same tempo as the opening chords which is like M.M. 76 to a half note (or sometimes even a little faster). the thing is, it sounds funny to play that C-B-A-A in that tempo (my friend describes it like an ice cream truck tune or a midi file). and my teacher insists that i wouldn't breathe a little to get rid of that metronomic effect of the tempo (as bad as the tempo being too fast already).

my idea was that, even though schumann didn't indicate a tempo change, the C-B-A-A theme should be free, taking some time on it since it is a very important theme anyway; it's really romantic, it's beautiful and people just have to enjoy that part. and after that theme, when the piano and the strings finally play together (E-F-E-D-C-B-A), it comes back to the original tempo of the opening chords, thus the playing is more moving.

my teacher says the thought shouldn't change, thus the tempo shouldn't (whhhaat!!?). i think it makes a lot of sense to play slower on that part.

FYI, he's not so open-minded and he would always insist his own ideas. i even think that he's making his students his ginny pig of his musical ideas (which i find so out of taste)

im actually convinced with my own idea, but i do need some confirmation from you guys, you know, i could be wrong after all.
and i have to play this in a concerto competition. now this is my real problem actually: he's gonna watch!!!!!!!!! should i change it in the competition proper or what?

help?

[pianistimo]

just listened to dinu lipatti playing it and he certainly plays it the way you suggest.  the only problem is that the orchestra can get messed up.  or, the teacher - if you are playing it with your teacher.  i agree that it could sound 'ice-cream truckish' - but you can always mess with playing the accacciaturas quicker in the opening yet keep the tempo the same.  hope this helps.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

i wont be playing with my teacher but another student of his who is quite his believer too. she seconds whatever he says. sigh, i've dealt with this frustration of being stuck with this teacher and thank goodness i'm only gonna be with him for a few more months before this term ends (im graduating this semester).

thanks for the suggestion. i just had a thought about the whole thing. i think i'll show him that i won't compromise what i believe in as a musician, during the competition itself.

[zheer]

Since you are playing with an orchestra i will do as your teacher suggested and not slow down for obvious reasons, however you can discuss this with the conductor.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

during the competition itself, i will be playing with 2nd piano like the rest of the competitors. IF EVER i do get in, performing with the orchestra will be a different story.

[zheer]

. IF EVER i do get in, performing with the orchestra will be a different story.

        Thats intresting, i've never playd in competitions, so before playing with an orchestra they will want to hear you play with a second piano? cool, wishing you luck.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

thanks. i just want to try my luck, i might get the chance to play with an orchestra. the competition is open to different instruments... so i think they would probably look for a "performer"-musician... of sort. and it also means that there would be a lot of contestants... yikes!

[Teddybear]

Good luck!

I have to admit that I mostly hate it when the main theme is slow. I think I even started a thread about my frustration a while ago. I was so mad when my teacher wanted the opening chords fast, the theme sloooooooooowwwwww.....zzzz...... and after that Wilhelm Tell speed. I don't hear any consistency in that.

ANYWAY, I also don't think the theme has to be in the same tempo with the chords, whatever the tempo is. It's tough when a teacher doesn't give you any freedom. I was sneaky and persistently played very fast. Then I slowed down a little so it appeared I had accepted her view. I was quite satisfied with the final tempo. I didn't really want it as fast as I played first, but what she wanted me to do was absolutely too slow for me.

Does your teacher change his mind very often? Mine does.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

it's not that i want it too slow. oh yeah, it's gonna be zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz... i would find it boring to really do a sitting down on those chords in the main theme. i just want it to be a little free, just the right movement. but my teacher doesn't allow me to be free and chooses an M.M. 76 to a half note tempo, and wants it steady so as to be Germanic- straightforward (whaa?!), which really sounds like an ice cream truck tune.
i mean, you can be germanic but be free. romantic spirit!

oh yes, my teacher is so inconsistent as well. maybe this trait would be acceptable if he is doing it on purpose, i mean for a reason like experimenting on a piece. but the thing is, he doesn't really remember that he said a different thing in the previous lesson AND he would contradict the principles of the previous idea he gave (he doesn't really know he's doing that), just to prove his current idea to be correct.

thanks...

[iumonito]

Crazy, I'm with you on this one.  You need to establish tempo, but tempo is not a metronomic thing.

If you are going to try to match tempi, maybe it should be the other way around: broad chordal gestures in advance of the main, elegiac, theme.

You are the soloist, the conductor, or second pianist is to accompany you.  It is your vision the one that goes.

[danyal]

If in a lesson, I have a different idea to that of my teacher as to a passage or interpretation, he leaves it to me to decide what I prefer, if either is acceptable and is just a matter of taste. Maybe you should have a talk with your teacher about this and that his ideas are not the holy be all and end all, and that they are flexible to change.

Even as ice cream trucks didnt exist in the days of Schumann, and thus his music could not be connated to it then, I'm very sure he wouldnt of written something with the intention of it sounding juvenile and mechanical. He was a very emotional composer and all his music is gorgeous and soulful, keep it so.

If I were in your position I would talk to my teacher, hope for a change of attitude, and if it did not happen, I would find another accompanist, and play it my way anyway. Because ultimately, you are the soloist and the one in the spotlight and the public will critic your playing, style and interpretation and general performance, not your teacher's. Dont allow your playing (and most importantly, your performance) to moulded into that of your teachers, especially if you dont agree. It is not good for your musicality, individuality and career. What makes a great pianist, IMO, is individual style and character. Its one of the mst important aspects of piano playing.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

thanks so much for the suggestions guys! i really appreciate it. i hope i'll have to guts to talk with him about it. as of now, i am thinking of doing that...

actually, im more stressed with this problem than with the concerto competition. wish me luck on my little talk with him.

[quantum]

Good Luck!

And I do agree with the others: You are the soloist and in the end it is your interpretation.  One of my piano teachers used to tell me - you don't have to do anything I tell you as long as you do something.  In other words - her suggestions were a list of possiblilities and I could choose what to do or do the exact opposite; but the worst thing to do is to make no interpretive decisions at all. 

As for the accompanist, the best accompanists always follow the lead of the solists and are prepared to adapt on the spot to any spur of the moment interpretive decisions.  If you don't think your accompanist is up to that job, by all means search for another. 


I've had a chamber music teacher similar to you piano teacher.  Sometimes she made strange interpretive decisions for the ensemble.  At first I went along, but after a while I realized it is up to me to make the music.  I did defy several interpretive decisions of this teacher in public performance - and i'm glad I did because it benefited the music much more. 

[crazy for ivan moravec]

hi guys!!! finally! the concerto competition is over, just an hour ago...

there were only 10 of us who joined so it took only 1 day to finish the whole thing. 8 pianists, 1 flutist and 1 guitarist. only four were chosen to play on the 4th of march:


flutist: mozart concerto
pianist: saint saens gm concerto (my korean friend)
pianist: schumann am concerto (moi)
guitarist: rodrigo concerto

the flutist was really musical! he was great! the guitarist performed the concerto with solid and impeccable technique, and some musicality as well.

---------------------

the other pianists played: ravel in G, saint saens in gm, mendelssohn in dm, liszt in Eb, rach 2 and the grieg in am.

thanks for all the help. actually, i didn't talk to my teacher about the tempo issues... but yesterday, i had to talk to the accompanist, and she understood me, so nice of her to sacrifice her loyalty to our teacher for a musical decision. so i was able to do my own stuff! yahoo! my teacher never mentioned about it after the competition... coz 2 of his students just won! he simply forgot about it.

they recorded the competition. ill try to ask for a copy and maybe i might post it in the audition room some time.