Becoming a Concert Pianist

[jamie_liszt]

Hey, There are alot of concert pianists out there, some are not as popular as others. Lang lang, yundi li, blechacz are good examples of popular pianists who have come popular because of winning big competitions. Is that the only way to become a popular pianist these days, what are the other ways, how do all these pianists become popular and perform at these big venues. (classical pianists im tlaking about that play chopin, beethoven, mozart, rach, Liszt).

Does a person have to be at concert pianist level in there early teens (12, 13 or 14) to make it. or can a person who has been learning for a while but just became interested in piano at 15 become famous too ? or is it not as likely.

So you practice piano everyday for years, you finish school, then you goto university for piano performance, you finish there in your 20's, then what? if you want to become a concert pianist what do you do. where do you go? Is competitions the only way.

you wont just become popular by going to a local hall and renting it to play for a couple of friends family and some old people.. and theres no way your gonna hire a huge popular hall to play infront of 20 000 people, HOW DO YOU DO IT. AHHHHH

the reason i am asking these stupid questions is that, i learnt piano from age 6 or 7 and never was interested, i wanted to quit, at age 13 i got a little bit more interested and just kept playing, but i turned 15 and i just loved the piano. i increased practice time from 30 minutes a day to 4 hours a day. I love performing, but im wondering if its too late, or i can still practice hard. just want some answers on where i should go, what i should practise over the next 3 years before i decide to goto uni for music.

[countchocula]

Nowadays for a lasting major career?  Geez...
Talent, discipline, luck, strong nerves, good general health, financial support, mental and physical stamina, dedication, strong memory, proper guidance, focus, technique, musicianship, appealing stage manner, playing refinement, connections...winning a major competition doesn't hurt either...critics who like you, a succesful debut CD, a good manager, a good label...did I mention luck?
Am I leaving anything out?  So few can actually pull it off for any length of time...

If a highly-talented young person were getting started, I would recommend getting a quality CD together, for promo purposes and distribution, a quality picture, make a website for yourself with pictures and audio samples and forward it to anyone and everyone, explore some lesser-known repertoire in addition to the popular standards, try the competition circuit (for the experience if nothing else), and try to make useful friends, including other musicians(not just pianists), recording engineers, video people, people that work in piano showrooms and halls, etc. 

STAY AWAY from "sponsors" and "supporters" who basically want alot of time from you, and talk more than they put up (usually older people with money - they are vampires) - if they don't cut a check immediately after the first lunch or dinner with them, LOSE THEM!  They will waste your time - don't waste any time and energy on this type, who claims to know this one and that one, etc. and promises to introduce you to the cousin of so-and-so, and all you have to do is hang around them and kiss their ass for a few weeks - they will never deliver anything worthwhile!  Remember this - it will save you some disappointment later...

Play anywhere and everywhere for free in the beginning - don't worry about fees, just get out there and meet people and get the experience...you can be more mercinary later on...

Don't get involved with managers - hang in there by yourself for a while - make your own moves and be your own agent - sell your CD's at your concerts, promote your website...

Work an interesting repertoire angle - maybe Clementi, or Busoni, or champion some lesser known composer - there's always time for Chopin Ballades later...

OK - I'm tired - going to bed now - hope this helps!
Good Luck!

[lostinidlewonder]

You DO NOT have to be famous to run a concert performance career. I have only ventured out of Australia to play once in Turkey and Germany, rarely do I play out of West Australia. I can make over $5,000 for one concert in my own pocket and that is concerts which I arrange, where I work out how to sell most of the tickets (self promotion) and where many of the people there are people from my own musical circles who have also helped to promote the occasion. I run my own business where my piano playing/teaching is the product.

Ok if I want to play in the Sydney Opera House I have to start making friends with influencial people or win big competitions but you need the personal URGE to do this. Why would I want to play in such big venues? It does not highlight my ability as an artist, number of seats does not tell us anything. I make a career from my smaller gatherings. There is little difference from the feeling you get playing in front of 1000 people to 20,000 from my own experience. I personally do not need to present my music to the world because I am perfectly satisfied to only give it to the few which I choose.

That may be considered as arrogance to some and putting my talent in a bottle, but it is how I want to do it and it is how I enjoy doing it. I would get too stressed doing 50 concerts a year and I love my homeland too much to be away from it for too long. If you hate where you come from and have no friends or family you need to be with, then go ahead live a nomadic concert pianists life, it is just not for me and not for a huge number of professional musicians I have met.

A musician can choose to balance Teaching work with Concert peformance and most do this (although some very easily get trapped into just doing teaching and neglecting their peformance skills, you need great control of your time to balance the two.)

I personally enjoy Teaching a great deal more than concert peformance (I like to transfer knowledge to others so that they can do the same, this makes a greater musical change in this world I think.) I do concerts every 2-3 years but I do tonns of smaller private concerts at univeristies, town halls usually once a month (this may be for 10 - 100 people). A musicans does not have to play in big concerts with big posters and make big money all the time. This is not the reality for most of us and it is not a neccessity either. Look at Chopin, did so few concerts in his lifetime but was absolutely admired by the lucky few who listened to his playing. Quantity is not necessary, Quality of a performance is.

A successful concert peformer gives the audience something that they didn't know they needed. That is the golden secret. If you know what it is you have to give them then you will naturally get great demand for peformance. I find this answer is through entertaining but also educating, I talk a great deal in my own concerts, speech is an artform in itself and I would memorise what i want to say exactly how I want it said so that the music is revealed through my own eyes to the entire audience, so they can be empowered with knowledge and secrets about the music.

I get asked to play all the time but I knock the invitations back simply because I take my own time to prepare concerts, I guess money is of no object to me, I have enough to live and nurture my musical ability, I am not like a poor Mozart thankfully.

[henrah]

I have been thinking about this very same question, but in a different light: should I try my hardest and become a concert pianist for a career and have 3D modelling and computer graphics as a hobby, or visa versa? I have also been wondering about teaching when I'm older, which might become a by-product of my piano career.

You make many good points Idlewonder: quality sure trumps quantity. My father is similar to you in that he likes to talk about the music he is going to play before he does, and it gives a wonderful insight into how and why the music came to be. I feel that I would be perfectly content with playing to any amount of people, be it 10 or 10,000, but the latter will definately be more exciting

I am in a similar position to Jamie also: I started the piano when I was around 5 years old, had no passion for it and got bored, then started up again when I found most of my friends played. I have recently found a little passion for it, but I don't think it is enough to keep me dedicated to becoming a concert pianist. That is most likely due to my weak 4th and 5th fingers, so if I were to strive to combat my weaknesses and assure myself with a technique that pleases me as I play and doesn't leave me gasping for air I could possibly try for a piano career. Fortunately for you Jamie, you already have that passion. 4hours a day I could never handle, I would get too fed up of my weak fingers. I wish you the best of luck Jamie, and I hope to see you in a hall playing some good music.
Henrah

P.S. Bit of a pointless post, I just like to talk about myself lol, I think it helps me see my own weaknesses 

[aspiramente]

rarely do I play out of West Australia.

What is your name?  (I am from Perth)

[BoliverAllmon]

You DO NOT have to be famous to run a concert performance career. I have only ventured out of Australia to play once in Turkey and Germany, rarely do I play out of West Australia. I can make over $5,000 for one concert in my own pocket and that is concerts which I arrange, where I work out how to sell most of the tickets (self promotion) and where many of the people there are people from my own musical circles who have also helped to promote the occasion. I run my own business where my piano playing/teaching is the product.

Ok if I want to play in the Sydney Opera House I have to start making friends with influencial people or win big competitions but you need the personal URGE to do this. Why would I want to play in such big venues? It does not highlight my ability as an artist, number of seats does not tell us anything. I make a career from my smaller gatherings. There is little difference from the feeling you get playing in front of 1000 people to 20,000 from my own experience. I personally do not need to present my music to the world because I am perfectly satisfied to only give it to the few which I choose.

That may be considered as arrogance to some and putting my talent in a bottle, but it is how I want to do it and it is how I enjoy doing it. I would get too stressed doing 50 concerts a year and I love my homeland too much to be away from it for too long. If you hate where you come from and have no friends or family you need to be with, then go ahead live a nomadic concert pianists life, it is just not for me and not for a huge number of professional musicians I have met.

A musician can choose to balance Teaching work with Concert peformance and most do this (although some very easily get trapped into just doing teaching and neglecting their peformance skills, you need great control of your time to balance the two.)

I personally enjoy Teaching a great deal more than concert peformance (I like to transfer knowledge to others so that they can do the same, this makes a greater musical change in this world I think.) I do concerts every 2-3 years but I do tonns of smaller private concerts at univeristies, town halls usually once a month (this may be for 10 - 100 people). A musicans does not have to play in big concerts with big posters and make big money all the time. This is not the reality for most of us and it is not a neccessity either. Look at Chopin, did so few concerts in his lifetime but was absolutely admired by the lucky few who listened to his playing. Quantity is not necessary, Quality of a performance is.

A successful concert peformer gives the audience something that they didn't know they needed. That is the golden secret. If you know what it is you have to give them then you will naturally get great demand for peformance. I find this answer is through entertaining but also educating, I talk a great deal in my own concerts, speech is an artform in itself and I would memorise what i want to say exactly how I want it said so that the music is revealed through my own eyes to the entire audience, so they can be empowered with knowledge and secrets about the music.

I get asked to play all the time but I knock the invitations back simply because I take my own time to prepare concerts, I guess money is of no object to me, I have enough to live and nurture my musical ability, I am not like a poor Mozart thankfully.

I completely agree.

[pita bread]

STAY AWAY from "sponsors" and "supporters" who basically want alot of time from you, and talk more than they put up (usually older people with money - they are vampires) - if they don't cut a check immediately after the first lunch or dinner with them, LOSE THEM! 

Dude, as long as they pay for my meals I wouldn't lose them.

[countchocula]

I can make over $5,000 for one concert in my own pocket...There is little difference from the feeling you get playing in front of 1000 people to 20,000 from my own experience...I do tons of smaller private concerts at univeristies, town halls usually once a month...A musicans does not have to play in big concerts with big posters and make big money all the time.

From MY experience, that is a truly enviable career...I know so many really fine, hard working  pianists, whose names people know, who can't get even a third of the work that you are getting...hmmm...
These forums kill me   

[leahcim]

From MY experience, that is a truly enviable career...I know so many really fine, hard working  pianists, whose names people know, who can't get even a third of the work that you are getting...hmmm...

Well, no. Don't be cynical $5000 for one concert, or even a few if the area is big enough seems perfectly feasible. Fame is relative too.

There are limits to the amount of concerts and the number of different pianists that someone is going to attend in a given time period and area though.

Similary your "musical circles" might want their effort and attendance recipricating.

[gruffalo]

I have been thinking about this very same question, but in a different light: should I try my hardest and become a concert pianist for a career and have 3D modelling and computer graphics as a hobby, or visa versa? I have also been wondering about teaching when I'm older, which might become a by-product of my piano career.

You make many good points Idlewonder: quality sure trumps quantity. My father is similar to you in that he likes to talk about the music he is going to play before he does, and it gives a wonderful insight into how and why the music came to be. I feel that I would be perfectly content with playing to any amount of people, be it 10 or 10,000, but the latter will definately be more exciting

I am in a similar position to Jamie also: I started the piano when I was around 5 years old, had no passion for it and got bored, then started up again when I found most of my friends played. I have recently found a little passion for it, but I don't think it is enough to keep me dedicated to becoming a concert pianist. That is most likely due to my weak 4th and 5th fingers, so if I were to strive to combat my weaknesses and assure myself with a technique that pleases me as I play and doesn't leave me gasping for air I could possibly try for a piano career. Fortunately for you Jamie, you already have that passion. 4hours a day I could never handle, I would get too fed up of my weak fingers. I wish you the best of luck Jamie, and I hope to see you in a hall playing some good music.
Henrah

P.S. Bit of a pointless post, I just like to talk about myself lol, I think it helps me see my own weaknesses 

i am in a similar situation to you and jamie. im finishing off my exams to get into Uni to study engineering, i still have a few more Universities to go for interviews, but im not actually going. ive chosen singing because it is what i really love. go with your heart, but you have to be realistic whether you will be able to make a career out of it. i dont know how one can judge themselves, but talk to a lot of people, teachers, performers etc. you will find yourself drawing your own conclusions.

[countchocula]

Well, no. Don't be cynical $5000 for one concert, or even a few if the area is big enough seems perfectly feasible. Fame is relative too.

There are limits to the amount of concerts and the number of different pianists that someone is going to attend in a given time period and area though.

Similary your "musical circles" might want their effort and attendance recipricating.

I live in NYC - most of my pianist friends are Julliard grads, some of them competition winners - still it is very difficult to get a $5000 gig anywhere around here - usually between $400 and $800 is expected for a recital.  The IKI festival at Mannes doesn't pay more than a couple of thousand to its performers, and that is the most well-known piano festival around here.  The Music Festival of the Hamptons pays a few hundred for a recital.  I don't know what Mostly Mozart pays, but none of us are playing there anytime soon, unless your name is Andsnes or Schiff.  The Metropolitan Museum series pays a few hundred, not more than a thousand.

"House Concerts" usually pay between $150-$300

If you are going to "make your own recital" - in order to make $5000 for a recital, with tickets at $15 a head, you have to draw 333 paying people to your event just to barely make $5000.  That doesn't include hall rental, piano tuning, advertising, and other expenses, which can all easily add up to several thousand. 

Maybe hall rental in NYC is more expensive than in other parts of the world?  What does a hall that seats 500-1000 cost to rent in your city or town?
Thanks...

[BoliverAllmon]

I think it also depends on the city. if you are in a place like new york where good musicians are dime a dozen, then the price you can ask for is going to be on the small end. If you are one of the few in a city, then you ask for more.

[countchocula]

I think it also depends on the city. if you are in a place like new york where good musicians are dime a dozen, then the price you can ask for is going to be on the small end. If you are one of the few in a city, then you ask for more.

Interesting - yes, very good pianists are a dime a dozen here - but then wouldn't the audience size be dramatically smaller in other smaller cities also?  I would think it would be easier to get 100 people to a concert in NYC than in the midwest or the south, but maybe I'm wrong...?  I don't know...
This is interesting...

[BoliverAllmon]

though there may be more people willing to go to these concerts, I think there are still too many musicians in NY. Take houston for example, there are millions of people and a vibrant classical community, but the number of quality pianists here in Houston is not that high at all.

boliver

[leahcim]

Interesting - yes, very good pianists are a dime a dozen here - but then wouldn't the audience size be dramatically smaller in other smaller cities also?  I would think it would be easier to get 100 people to a concert in NYC than in the midwest or the south, but maybe I'm wrong...?  I don't know...
This is interesting...

AIUI, the op wasn't talking about the same country. Possibly not even the same currency.

But yeah, I think taking either your or his specifics and generalising them might lead to false conclusions about what you can or can't make.

[sevencircles]

How hard is it to get record deal?

Where in the world do pianists earn most money per gig?

[BoliverAllmon]

I would think more money is to be made in Europe.

[sevencircles]

I would think more money is to be made in Europe.

Propably!

Japan is propably even better and not to mention how good China will be in a few years.

[lostinidlewonder]

Money for good musical peformance can be made ANYWHERE. I have played up in far north Australia where there is only a population of like 1,000 and almost the entire city turns up! They rarely have any entertainment so when it comes to their doorstep they swarm in. You might actually realise that in big cities is where you will flunk. Costs for hiring venues are very high, and people there are usually too busy to do anything! But you can charge more per ticket in bigger cities if you know where to target your marketing.

Earning 5K a concert is not hard but it does require work! For concert pianists who do not win big competitions to bring up their fame you must self promote. If you do not you will not make money as simple as that, it means diddly squat that you got 90% in an examination or disctiction at univeristy for your piano peformance. This is where most extremely gifted pianists give up because they have no idea how to market themselves.

When I do my "big" concerts with like 500+ seats I am extremely organised in my approach as to how I get the tickets sold. If I sit back and wait for people to ring box office to order tickets I can hope to sell around 100 seats. This is the numbers that I read from all of my concert sales, the sale made by myself through self promotion that is playing 2 or 3 pieces at events and selling tickets on the spot, can account for almost all the rest. I find however if you periodically hit the same venues you usually can keep the momentum going from your last visit and people will naturally ring and order more tickets, often I get people who have attended my previous concerts saying they enjoyed it last time and this time brought some friends, so word of mouth is very important as well for the self promoting musician.

The reality is that people are usually very lazy to go out and order tickets despite how good you may be, however if you are there in front of them and they can get a FREE taste of what is being offered, if you tickle their interest only slightly there is a big chance that they will want tickets from you. I personally do not care if I sell tickets or not. People are not stupid, they will detect that you are trying to sell yourself and make money if you think on terms of sales. I just do my thing, and what happens happens. But I keep promoting myself, donating my time for free, playing in local social clubs, retirement villiages, schools, churches etc until I sell the seats, I just enjoy sharing the music and if some people are nice enough to purchase a ticket and come see an organised event I am absolutely honored (it might sound over the top but seriously a musician owes a great deal to his/her audience, they are what make the event special not yourself!) Sometimes I have to do 10 appointments before I sell enough, sometimes 20! This requires a good 2-3 month promotion.

So now the meaning behind 5K a concert is revealed. I might spend 1,000+ hours of piano practice perfecting my music, and I also might be doing 20 smaller promotional events to sell the tickets, all which I get paid 0$. So a big concert for me is the payment of all of this effort, which is really meagre if you look at it.

For musicians who pay for a hall, and then sit back expecting that advertising in papers, radio, posters etc will sell them tickets, you are in for a rude and sometimes very demoralising surprise. You must simply do it yourself, there is no easy way around it.

[leahcim]

So now the meaning behind 5K a concert is revealed.

Yes and the meaning of "ANYWHERE" - which is apparantly "north Australia" as opposed to somewhere else in Australia?

Shall we all go?

If you do a concert every 3 months for 20000 AUS dollars a year, that's less than the UK minimum wage and probably significantly less if you considered the hours  / time and hidden costs.

I think people talking about "ANYWHERE" and "career" would be talking in different terms, where some of the factors you haven't required might matter.

Not that money is everything and if you enjoy it, why not. There's nothing wrong with playing as a hobby or for fun.

But in business terms, if you can find some activity or endeavour to make you money during the hours you'd normally be spending playing the piano for nothing, to try and sell tickets for some future event. Chances are that you could make more money doing that than you will at that future concert.

Unless there's some point you might reach where your "fame" means you can sell the tickets without all the promotional free stuff. Then they'd make sense seen as a short-term loss leader.

[tompilk]

I want to be a concert pianist!!! (randomly) but i think ill be a doctor instead... unless i get a massive amoount of talent suddenly or unless i totally devote myself to piano, which i cant do because of my studies at school... it would be a nice way to go if i werent any good at school...

[aspiramente]

I live in Western Australia also, and have played  many recitals at peoples homes for sometimes up to 500 dollars, without really any "marketing". I am very social and go out and do a lot of things and talk to a lot of people and they find out what Im about and say "ooh, I would love to see some kind of piano recital, but I dont know where to start..."

Also, two people from my university were in the Prague Spring festival piano competition last year and one the year before, and they both had a small article in the news paper about the comp and a fund raising concert plus the university advertised it on the mailing list and newsletter and they both completely sold out.

I find the problem with a lot of pianists is that they don't socialize much and are quite frankly, hermits.

There are plenty of good pianists out there, but the majority live in their practise rooms and hope to ride on the coat tails of a big competition win, which is unlikely, and over rated.


If you want to be a concert pianist, I would suggest marketing yourself in the same way a person trying to become a pop star or a model would, and they do it by being every where and making everyone know who they are and then pray to god you have enough talent to back it all up when the small recital offers and shopping centre appearances etc roll in.

[practicingnow]

Money for good musical peformance can be made ANYWHERE. I have played up in far north Australia where there is only a population of like 1,000 and almost the entire city turns up! They rarely have any entertainment so when it comes to their doorstep they swarm in. You might actually realise that in big cities is where you will flunk. Costs for hiring venues are very high, and people there are usually too busy to do anything! But you can charge more per ticket in bigger cities if you know where to target your marketing.

Earning 5K a concert is not hard but it does require work! For concert pianists who do not win big competitions to bring up their fame you must self promote. If you do not you will not make money as simple as that, it means diddly squat that you got 90% in an examination or disctiction at univeristy for your piano peformance. This is where most extremely gifted pianists give up because they have no idea how to market themselves.

When I do my "big" concerts with like 500+ seats I am extremely organised in my approach as to how I get the tickets sold. If I sit back and wait for people to ring box office to order tickets I can hope to sell around 100 seats. This is the numbers that I read from all of my concert sales, the sale made by myself through self promotion that is playing 2 or 3 pieces at events and selling tickets on the spot, can account for almost all the rest. I find however if you periodically hit the same venues you usually can keep the momentum going from your last visit and people will naturally ring and order more tickets, often I get people who have attended my previous concerts saying they enjoyed it last time and this time brought some friends, so word of mouth is very important as well for the self promoting musician.

The reality is that people are usually very lazy to go out and order tickets despite how good you may be, however if you are there in front of them and they can get a FREE taste of what is being offered, if you tickle their interest only slightly there is a big chance that they will want tickets from you. I personally do not care if I sell tickets or not. People are not stupid, they will detect that you are trying to sell yourself and make money if you think on terms of sales. I just do my thing, and what happens happens. But I keep promoting myself, donating my time for free, playing in local social clubs, retirement villiages, schools, churches etc until I sell the seats, I just enjoy sharing the music and if some people are nice enough to purchase a ticket and come see an organised event I am absolutely honored (it might sound over the top but seriously a musician owes a great deal to his/her audience, they are what make the event special not yourself!) Sometimes I have to do 10 appointments before I sell enough, sometimes 20! This requires a good 2-3 month promotion.

So now the meaning behind 5K a concert is revealed. I might spend 1,000+ hours of piano practice perfecting my music, and I also might be doing 20 smaller promotional events to sell the tickets, all which I get paid 0$. So a big concert for me is the payment of all of this effort, which is really meagre if you look at it.

For musicians who pay for a hall, and then sit back expecting that advertising in papers, radio, posters etc will sell them tickets, you are in for a rude and sometimes very demoralising surprise. You must simply do it yourself, there is no easy way around it.

Enlightening