Look at this video - thumb under or thumb over?

[palika dunno]

https://s6.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3C8CR7Y3H8QOS02M1RJDLRD4CD

It's Padarewski playing a scale from chopin's polonaise op. 53.
Is he playing thumb over? I'm a bit confused...

Palika

[nicolaievich]

I have no doubt he is playing thumb under, at least on right hand. I can't see the thumb on left hand but it must be the same as right hand I think.

[palika dunno]

I mean, of course, his right hand...
but it's somehow difficult to say if he is really passing his thumb under the hand...

[palika dunno]

his teacher leschetizky taught the thumb under...
I think he's playing thumb under very fast so the motion becomes very similar to the thumb over motion

[steve jones]

I dont know about his scales, but the mans mitts are massive (or is it just a trick of the light  )


Actually, he is using a kind of hybrid technque - passing the thumb under but moving the arm / wrist at the same time. This means that the thumb isnt moving under the hand much at all. Watch the clip in slowmo and you'll see.

[palika dunno]

yes...you are right.
thanks

[nicolaievich]

Actually, he is using a kind of hybrid technque - passing the thumb under but moving the arm / wrist at the same time. This means that the thumb isnt moving under the hand much at all.

I agree, he moves the wrist each time the thumb goes under, but I think it's not a specific technique, he just does that movement as I surely make another movement with my wrist. It's just his way to pass the thumb under.

[henrah]

Can you explain to me what 'thumb over' is all about? I am very confused as to the technique of doing it, and would like to know if it would benefit me more than thumb under as thumb under sometimes ruins my flow from my wrist moving awkwardly.
Henrah

[steve jones]

'Thumb over' is we you shift the hand to side rather than passing the thumb under the hand.

For example, RH C Major Ascending:

C, D, E

Shift the hand so that the thumb is ready to play F

F, G, A, B

Shift the hand so that the thumb is ready to play C


To perform the technique correctly there are other motions involved, but this is the 'meat and potatoes' of it. The idea is to avoid paralysing the fingers by reaching under with the thumb. With TO it is simply a matter of shifting the hand quickly between position, while keeping the hand and fingers relatively motion free.

Not easy to do. But from what the local boffins say, this technique is essential for super fast playing. Even Padarewski (who uses 'thumb under') uses a wrist motion to prevent the thumb from passing under the hand. It seems that it is impossible to play super fast scales using the true thumb under motion.

However, thumb under is good for slow scales as it allows a more fluent legato. So according to Chang, it is desirable to learn both techniques from the start.

Personally, I can play one octave TO like lightening, but I then fluff the next octave. The technique certainly does work, but is less intuitive than 'thumb under' imo.

[henrah]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up

[sissco]

https://members.aol.com/kwanmc/scale.htm

Maybe usefull...

[zheer]

https://members.aol.com/kwanmc/scale.htm

Maybe usefull...

  I acctually read all ov that, i know am a nurd. Anyway am aware of the concept of TU and TO, but its the first time that i have read about it. I really believe that you should use both methods when playing piano they are equally important. With the TO method you can acctually hear the difference, it was intresting to read about the cartwheel method used by Chopin cause it helps with Etude10/1 a lot.
    I can think of 2 pianists who use these principals in their piano playing, the first is polline and the second is Samson Francois, i is have i vid of both of them, lucky me.
    Speaking of Samson Francois, he really playd the piano with elegance.

[brewtality]

I don't think paderewski should be your technical role model. If you want to see great scale playing, watch a Hamelin vid. Everything just looks so perfect.

[steve jones]

I like Kissin's scale and passage work. So fast and even, Iv never heard anything like it! Have you heard his Chopin Prelude 16? I doubt a midi sequencer could play it with more precision.

[ramseytheii]

  I acctually read all ov that, i know am a nurd. Anyway am aware of the concept of TU and TO, but its the first time that i have read about it. I really believe that you should use both methods when playing piano they are equally important. With the TO method you can acctually hear the difference, it was intresting to read about the cartwheel method used by Chopin cause it helps with Etude10/1 a lot.
    I can think of 2 pianists who use these principals in their piano playing, the first is polline and the second is Samson Francois, i is have i vid of both of them, lucky me.
    Speaking of Samson Francois, he really playd the piano with elegance.

I would love to see videos of Samson francois. Do you have them on the computer, can they be sent with a fileshare or whatever?

Walter Ramsey

[zheer]

I would love to see videos of Samson francois. Do you have them on the computer, can they be sent with a fileshare or whatever?

Walter Ramsey

     I have the DVD, and sorry i dont know haw to post them. The DVD has him playing Ravel and Grieg piano concerto in A minor, the DVD also has the young Polline playing CHopin. It will be money well spent if you buy it from a shop. Its intresting because Samson Francois studied the sound Hrowitz created with the piano.