Chopin Prelude 20

[steve jones]

Hi all,

Quick recording I made just of Chopin prelude 20. Been working on this piece for a few weeks in an attempt to develop my chord work. Will be doing Prelude 9 next, so this seems like good prep for that one.

Recording sounds terrible, so I hope you have your sick bucket ready! Piano is horrible, room is horrible, gear is worse... ok enough excuses, lol. Actually, I think the mic moved a bit while i was playing, eek!

Anyway, would love to hear any suggestions. Obviously I need to work on it more, get the timing better, dynamics more even etc (just more practice at the end of the day).

Any other pointers would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Steve J

[steve jones]

You think maybe the tempo is a a little high for largo? Just had a listen to some recordings and I think it might be 

[m1469]

Hi Steve, nice to hear your recording.   Well, your opening phrase is very passionate and believable.  You like the ff and the faster tempo perhaps because of the sense of energy you want to bring to the performance.  I personally think it is possible to achieve an energetic flow even at slower tempos, and yours is the fastest I have listened to.  I don't think it needs to go this fast to maintain a sense of life.  Have you tried it slower just to compare ?

Along the lines of maintaining a sense of life, you may want to breathe a little more  .  Although there is only one riten. in the piece, even if you do not slow down at all toward the end of the other two phrases, a breath would be nice.  A chance for us as the listener to clean our palletes a little, and take a sip of red wine...

You have obvious thoughts on dynamics and express those clearly, however, in the last phrase the tone became less clear than it could be, even at pp.  Perhaps you came down in volume so much within the second phrase, you had little place to go from there.

I am betting that you have listened to Argerich, as she states the last chord quiet loudly, as you have also decided on.  I find that interesting in general because I don't recall seeing an edition that actually has anything but  "p" there.  I will admit though, I have thought "well, if Argerich did it, why can't I ?".  I guess we decide.  My only thoughts about that cresc. right before the last chord is that it seems you go beyond the level of dynamics you have established for that phrase.  I know it needs to get louder, but perhaps it is more the tone and the intention of your chords at that point, they don't fit within the phrase.  They are a little harsher and more pointed.  Perhaps you want something that sounds like it does not fit exactly there, but if that is not the case, you may want to adjust your overall phrasing a bit.

Lastly, there is something I am finding funny about this piece and its various performers and editors.  In measure 3, beat four, that C chord is written as Major as the E was naturaled on beat 2.  However, Argerich plays Eb (making it c minor) as well as the recording that PS has posted next to the score.  Pollini, on the other hand, does not.  He plays E natural, making it a C major chord.  In the Schirmer edition, it stays E natural, while in another edition I have (Augener's (?)) it also is E natural, but somebody has written in a flat over that note as though they were advised by some authority to change back there, but the editor had not caught it (I bought this one used so somebody else put it there).  In the PS edition, somebody has hand-written in a natural sign, so I suppose that opposed to the recording, somebody here feels it should be E natural.  I believe the sheetmusicarchive edition actually has printed an Eb, though.  So, it's a mystery to me.

In any event, you played an Eb, and according to most editions (though not all recordings) it is an E natural, making it C Major (as I already said  ).

How long have you been working on this piece ?  I would love to hear this again in a little while.  Keep up the good work


m1469

[zheer]

Cool, you might want to try this. When you play a chord, keep the sustain pedal on and only change pedal once you have playd the second chord, that way the 2 chords melt into each other. Basically for a brief momment 2 chords will be on top of each other, but once you let go ov the pedal the first chord will disappear and the second chord will remain under your finger tips.

[kd]

Very nice. I think you might work on the rhythm a bit: it is dotted 8th and a 16th (x--x), so it is important not to make it sound like two 8th triplet notes (x-x). At that tempo (which could be a little slower) there is even no need to use anything like metronome, this can be counted in mind easily. But overall I like it. Keep up the good work and be sure to post Prelude 9 as well. Good luck.

[infectedmushroom]

You play it a little bit too fast imo, but I do like your performance! I enjoyed listening and keep up the good work. 


Btw: I'm planning to learn this piece and I might start next week. From the look of the sheet music, this piece doesn't look that difficult, but I can be wrong... !?

[jlh]

Good job!

Have you heard the 10 variations on this prelude by Busoni (K.213)?  Check it out, they're pretty good.

[steve jones]

Hey, thanks all for the wonderful feedback! 


m1469,

Some great suggestions that I will certainly bear in mind. Iv been working on the piece for about 2 weeks, so not much time for interpretive considerations. I have quite a few recordings, but my fave is the one by Stahlbrand. He did the exaggeration of the cres at the end, and also a little unorthedox, I did like it! Both he and Kissin both drop the volume greatly after the first section, and I must admit, I adopted this. You're quite correct, I found the pp a struggle - trying to voice the upper line properly at that low volume was hard and I didnt get it right at all.

Then again, I wanted to develop my chord work with this piece, so practicing with the greatest dynamic range was important.

Also, the rit at the end of the second section is something I usually try to emphasize more. Didnt happen so much that time, but I will make sure to give it more attention in future.


Zheer,

Thanks, will give that a try. Usually I lift the pedal just as I strike the next chord, so not to get any 'spillage'. But Im very new to pedally generally, so its something I would like to explore further. Im doing Prelude 4 at the moment, and Im having a right mare with the pedally on this one!


Kd,

You are quite right, the rhythm is very dodgy in parts. Something I shall be sure to practice, cheers.


Infectedmushroom,

I actually agree, when I listen back to the recording I thought the tempo might be a little high. With respect to difficulty, I cant really say to be honest without knowing the pieces you've done previously. If you are handy at chord work at volume, then it should be a breeze for you. There is a fairly tricky chord (depending on your hand size) that involves 5 notes over a ninth, but Im quite sure that most people could handle it without to much trouble.


jlh,

I havent no mate, but I will hunting for those pronto. Thanks for the heads up!

[systen]

I like your recording, it's very nice. Maybe a bit too fast in some passages, but what does that matter?... It sounds cool to me! Also, you played the "volume changes" (don't know how to call it in English), very nice.

Your recording reminds me of a recording of Kissin playing the Chopin Prelude No.20... And that's not negative! 

[mwhite]

Thanks Steve.  You did a good job.

Thanks to m1469 too:

"Lastly, there is something I am finding funny about this piece and its various performers and editors.  In measure 3, beat four, that C chord is written as Major as the E was naturaled on beat 2."

I was puzzled by this myself.  I read the E natural, but it didn't sound right because all of the recordings that I had heard played the Eb. 

Mike

[steve jones]

Oops...

Looking at the score I believe you are quite right m1469! I must have just playing it to ear more than as it was written (makes sense as I usually try to memorize from the start and usually play without the score). Sounds like of weird though with the major chord, not sure I can get used to that!

[rafant]

Well, you have the notes, and you do well in requesting advise to improve. I think this lovely Prelude must sound as a funeral march and a lower tempo is better. Suggestions:

i) Avoid that chords sounds as hammer blows.
ii) Highlight the melody; the melody notes needs legato.
iii) Pay more attention to the dynamics: your 1st staff is sounding level. 2nd staff must start "p" and 3rd staff must start "pp"; try to enhance such a contrast, since it has a great effect when played properly
iv) 2nd and 3rd staffs must end with "ritardando".

Good luck!

[steve jones]

Rafant,

All good suggestions, thanks!

i) Actually, it didnt sound like that when I was playing so maybe it was the horrific recording. I may be playing the FF a little hard though, and will work on taming it.

ii) This is something I find difficult, and are trying to work on. Iv found that if I try to 'point' at a melody note it brings it out more. I had this very same problem with Moonlight Mvt 1, and I am going to spend some time working on this (maybe Bach 3 part Inventions might help?).

iii) I emulated the dynamics quite a bit from the recordings I have, but in retrospect I can see what you mean. The contrast between p and pp is almost none existent.

iv) Have corrected this now.

Also, I have now adopted a lower tempo and a more somber feel. Will post another rec as and when I think I have something more to offer.

Thanks again all for the advice!

Steve J

[rafant]

About highlighting the melody: a challenge is that this is carried out by the weak fingers of the right hand. First be sure that you are producing solid, full chords (I don't meaning loud chords, but complete ones). Then familiarize yourself with the melody notes by playing the melody isolated from the chords. Keep that sound in your head as a model and then add the chords, but listen carefully your own sounds until you achieve to hear the melody clearly among the harmonies. I think that gradually your fingers will adapt to produce the sound you want to hear.

[mkljackson]

It's way too fast. Play it so slow that it takes 5 minutes to play, and listen to yourself. It sounds like you're in a hurry to finish the song.

[steve jones]

Lads,

Have made many a revision since then. This recording was made when I had finishing 'learning' the piece, but before Id spent any amount of time considering the interp.

Im still not happy about my playing of this piece but I have changed quite a bit:

- Slower tempo

- More emphasis on the medody (quite hard to bring it out actually!)

- Greater use of rubato in phrasing


However, I do feel that some of the critisisms regarding the fullness, or tone of the chords is a result of the instrument / recording. I know its cliche to blame the gear, but I can assure you that 'tone' of the recording is not very representative of the true performance.

I will try to make another recording using a better piano / set up. Mine is about ready for the scap heap! 

[mkljackson]

Well, at least you know what you did wrong, and I'd love to hear the new recording.

[steve jones]

Indeed, I should probably have marked it a 'work in progress' in the first place. The recording was never intended to be a finished product. Never the less, I am VERY glad that I posted it at this early stage, as I have be granting some wonderful advice - stuff I might not have got if Id waited.

Something that struck me recently was the importance of bringing out the melody at the top of each chord. Listening to Argerich's recordings of Preludes 20 and 9, I can see that she is very good at this. I find it difficult to do while keeping the chord solid, but its something to work on certainly.

With respect to tempo, this is something Iv been pondering quite a bit. Iv only heard one recording with any great amount of rubato, but I actually quite like it (breaks the monotony a little). However, I feel inside me that this monotony of rhythm is important to the overall effect of the piece.

Thanks again for all the help people, it hasnt fallen on deaf ears!

And Im sure it will help me infinitely with Prelude 9 which Im currently working on. This one is step up, and Im finding the left hand tricky (on the trills). But Im sure I will get there. Will post you a recording when it is under my fingers.