Poltergeist?

[thalbergmad]

Been some strange experiences in the place where i work recently, such as strange noises, photocopier machine starting when nobody was near it etc.

In addition, on a few occasions when i have opened up the office in the morning, some bins have been turned over and files moved. I initially though that we had rats or mice, but when i put down a huge lump of cheese next to my desk, within 10 minutes it just vanished without a trace. If a rat had taken it, i am sure i would have seen something.

My boss who was working alone late at night, told me she had an incredible urge to get out of the office as quick as possible. She fled in terrror.

This morning when i was sitting at my desk, i felt a cold chill and at the same time something brushed past the radiator as it made a ringing noise.

Whatever is going on does not really bother me, as my Auntie's house used to be haunted when i was very young. However, my boss is rather disturbed.

What does one do to get rid of it??

[prometheus]

This is a joke, right?

[leahcim]

What does one do to get rid of it??

Take your boss to the cleaners.

Although given the "Posts: leet" perhaps it's a hacker or a virus

[thalbergmad]

This is a joke, right?

Unlike most of my posts, this is no joke.

[pianistimo]

bring a bible in to work and set it on your desk.  then see what happens.  they'll get the heck out of there.  (this is no joke either).  set it near the cheese (or better yet, set the cheese on a plate on top of it).  let me know if the cheese ever goes missing again, ok.

if you ever feel the 'chill' again - rebuke Satan in the name of Jesus Christ ("in the name of Jesus Christ, i command you to leave").  people will think you're crazy - but it works.  ask pianowelsh and others who are Christian on this forum.  if you can feel the spirit world moving around you - you can influence them just as they influence you.  the angels are here to serve us and not the other way around.

could be that your boss is at fault for succumbing to demons in her workplace.  some people don't tell you what they are 'into.'  keep your side tidy and they'll stay on hers.  if she is inviting them in some way, find employment in an environment that you like better!

[prometheus]

Cheese dissapears -> there are ghosts and demons

Uuh, how does that reasoning work? Sounds like someone is making fun of your superstitious nature.

If you do believe that there is a ghost and if you do believe the bible will work. It will! Just put it on the desk, or whatever Pianistimo says, and there will be no more ghosts. If you still think there are ghosts, that can't be. God is truth.

[pianistimo]

truth is stranger than fiction.  i'm not saying that missing cheese is the end all of magic tricks in the bag.  the lesser tricks may be silly - but the greater ones mess with the mind.  to me, it's all in whom you serve.  if you know and others know you serve God, then demons are a moot point.  they have no power over you in ANY way.  if you don't proclaim whom you serve - you are a moving target.  if you worship demons - you don't even need targeting - you come to them.

[leahcim]

bring a bible in to work and set it on your desk.  then see what happens.  they'll get the heck out of there. 

Or get a job in a bookshop or a hotel bedroom [depends on looks I guess ] where you should be safe.

[Bob]

If you think it's rats, put out a trap.

Otherwise try setting up a camera maybe.  Sounds like the boss wouldn't mind.

You got things messed up when you come in in the morning and a missing piece of cheese. 

Coworkers?  Nighttime janitor?

Have some fun.  Freak your boss out.  Shout a phrase in shock and act very surprised, "Do you see that?"  "I don't want to talk about it!"   "It was nothing!  Just my imagination!  That's not possible!"   "Did you feel cold just now?"  "Did you hear that?"

[lisztisforkids]

I dident use to beleive in Ghosts and that sort of stuff until about 3 years ago. I used to beleive all that Ghost stuff was rubbish......

3 years ago, I was taking Church Organ lessons at a local Church... This Church is very old, about a hundred and twenty years old and one of the first buildings to be built in my town. Well anyway, due to my schedule I was usually there until late at night alone in the Church. I started seeing little flashes of black and a person flash in front of door ways. But more importantly I felt a presence of something. The first few times I got scared and just left the Building and went home not telling anybody about it. I would say 'Calm down Steven, its just your imagination'. But it began to happen more and more frequently, sometimes I would feel as if it were right under nearby the neary piano, or behind me. I am not making this stuff up, there was something there. After a while I just got used to it, I realized that it dident want to bother me or hurt me so I just lived with it, it still terrified me, and I still saw it, I just refused to be afraid of it. I brought my girlfriend with me to the Church for company a few times. She swears she noticed something there to... Its incredibly strong. I only told my mother and my piano teacher about this and no ones else, since they wouldent beleive me anyways...

I dont know what it was but there was something there....

[lagin]

I believe both you guys, actually.  And I know piantissimo's statement might seem trite, or to some atheists, ignorant, but she has some good points.  Now, I don't know about a Bible scaring off a ghost, or demon, or spirit, but I do know that the spirit world very much does exist, and I do know that if I were not a Christian, and Jesus did not live in my heart, I would be very scared of it.   So I mean, yes, you could rebuke an evil spirit in the name of Jesus, if you were a Christian because He "lives in you" (not going into that explanation now!), but if you aren't a Christian, then I don't know if that would work very well.  That's like me telling you my husband (if I were married), would do something for you.  Well, that's all fine and good if I'm married to him, but a stranger off the street telling you my husband is going to do something for you doesn't hold the same amount of power I'd think.  I'm no expert though on this sort of thing, ghosts, and all, that is.

[pianistimo]

maybe even with a mustard seed of faith, this is possible with environments but not people, as lagin said, without increasing your faith by baptism, prayer, and fasting.  that is the only way that Christ said some demons leave.  i always wondered why He said this, but i think when you pray to God and skip a meal or two - you are openly saying that your food is to do the will of God.  that you understand this physical life isn't all there is.

Christ openly obtained the Holy Spirit (descended as a dove) at his baptism when He was thirty.  He began his ministry soon afterwards (and not before).  So, in effect, even Christ did not attempt to cast out demons from people until he was full of the Spirit.  as i understand it, John the Baptist (luke 1:15) was filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb.  to fulfill all - Christ was baptized by him and received the Holy Spirit himself from God after baptism in the Jordan - and then in luke 4 - returned,"full of the Holy Spirit..."   

but, i'm wondering if He gives us power from His own Spirit at any time we believe and ask for help.  especially in regard to our environments.  otherwise, we wouldn't begin to HAVE faith - by seeing Him in action.  i've heard that even real estate agents call in priests, or ministers to 'cleanse' certain properties that have experienced a murder or something.  don't know much about this.  it would be strange to have to call them in to a church!? of course, demons try to get a foothold anywhere they can - but God says 'resist him, and he will flee from you.' 
 

[lisztisforkids]

.  it would be strange to have to call them in to a church!? of course, demons try to get a foothold anywhere they can - but God says 'resist him, and he will flee from you.' 
 

It wasent a demon... I dont know what it was. It didient try to hurt me, it just scared me a few times until I got used to it. I dont think it was evil at all.

[alzado]

A couple of quick comments--

I thought the word "Bible" was supposed to have the first letter capitalized. 

Secondly, placing a Bible anywhere in your workplace would not work.  For one thing, black magic is described and praised in the Bible -- such as the passage about the "witch of Endor."

What would work would be a photograph of Pope Benedict XVI.  It should be hung on the wall of the room where the manifestations occur.

[lagin]

It wasent a demon... I dont know what it was. It didient try to hurt me, it just scared me a few times until I got used to it. I dont think it was evil at all.

Well, God and His angels, certainly don't creep around scaring people, so if it's not on His side, then, it probably was evil, imo.

[lagin]

A couple of quick comments--

I thought the word "Bible" was supposed to have the first letter capitalized. 

Secondly, placing a Bible anywhere in your workplace would not work.  For one thing, black magic is described and praised in the Bible -- such as the passage about the "witch of Endor."

What would work would be a photograph of Pope Benedict XVI.  It should be hung on the wall of the room where the manifestations occur.

What!!  What Bible are you reading??!!  Black magic is totally denounced in the Bible!  Speaking of an evil king in 2 Kings 21:6 it says, "And he made his son pass through the fire, practiced witchcraft and used divination, and dealt with mediums and spiritists.  He did much evil in the sight of the LORD provoking Him to anger.

And in the law giveng by God to Moses in Deuteronomy 18:10, 11a, it says, "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interpreets omens, or a socerer, or one who casts a spell, or a mekdium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.  For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD...

God HATES witchcraft of all sorts, and says so clearly in the Bible.  Now I do believe I heard about the witch of Endor in a video game I used to play for super nintendo called the Secret of Mana, but I do not recall reading of her in the Bible.  If you know where it is, can you give me the reference for it so I can look?  Thanks, mate.

[lagin]

My bad, I found it.  It's in 1 Samuel 28  (Still don't know about that video game, though!  It's been so long since I've played it, I could be mistaken).  Anyway, it gives no inclination that God approves of Saul going to this witch.  In fact Samuel did not sound pleased with Saul's actions here.  (verse 15)

If you read the whole thing, it also says that Saul went to her instead of to God, which would not be cool in God's eyes either.  The reason for this was because Saul was so evil in God's eyes that He basically, in very crude layman's terms, stopped talking to him!  (from previous chapters). 

 And if you look at what Samuel says to Saul, he basically says that the next day, all of Israel will be handed over to their enemies, and Saul along with his sons will be killed, which if you read further did indeed happen.  He also reminds him that "the LORD has departed from you and has become your adversary."  (verse 16)

So we have an evil man that God turned His back on, going to a witch, which God says he hates, calling up the dead which God detests, and it ends up that his kingdom is captured and he and his family are dead the next day.  Not exactly the blessing of God, if you know what I mean!  So my bad, the story IS in the Bible, but NO, God does not approve of witchcraft in any way.

It is real, as the story shows, and it is powerful, but it is hated by God.  And for good reason!  It's like joining Satan instead of God.  It's like spitting in His face, and declaring allegiance to His enemy.

[lagin]

Just to be the devil's advocate, pianissimo, without looking it up, didn't Jesus say to fast and pray to cast out that type of demon.  I don't think fasting is a requirement for all demons.  And I don't know about baptism, so I won't comment there, but I do know that I was a Christian, with God's Spirit living in me long before I actually was baptised.  I always thought baptism was just a public declaration of your stand as a Christian.

So I do agree with you on the prayer part, and half on the fasting part, but not, as far as I know, on the baptised part.  Correct me if I'm wrong though, k?

[pianistimo]

agreed about most everything, lagin.  i too, felt a sort of 'calling' if you could say (even though i was headed the other direction) when younger.  as i got older i came to believe God was real and His Spirit powerful and guiding.  suppose that i should capitalize Bible!  it's funny - but i've been trying to avoid capitalizing for the sake of speed and nothing else. 

anyway, the Holy Spirit was said to descend on Jesus Christ like a dove.  i think this was, as lagin says, so people could see the manifestation of what Christ probably already had.  the Holy Spirit.  (luke 4:1 mentions Him returning with the 'fullness' of the Spirit after baptism) God works however he wants to, but as i see it, in one passage 3,000 people were baptized in one day (i think Acts somewhere).  it is openly saying that you accept Christ as your personal savior and want to follow him - much as a wedding ceremony binds two people in marriage.  some people are already committed before marriage - but do not have sexual relations until they are formally married in a public ceremony.  perhaps baptism is like that - he give us a down payment (dowry) and then he fills us with the Holy Spirit at baptism more fully.  do you think this is right, lagin?

[alzado]

At risk of offending lagin, I believe he is mistaken.

True, he can find individual quotations that may seem to condemn witchcraft.  However, there are other passages that endorse it.

In Judges there are ceremonial poles and ceremonial altars that were associated with the Canaanite gods that are approved for the people. 

Some of the pagan divinities that lured the Jews to idolatry can be thought of as the manifestation of demons.

Really, I do feel there's too much commerce with black magic in certain books of the Bible to justify using it to purify anything.  It would probably just make the poltergeist STRONGER, not weaker.

How about using just a copy of the New Testament?

With all due respect . . . . .

[lagin]

Can you give me the exact verse alzado, because as far as I can recall, those poles and alters were not approved of for God's people.  I don't have time to look it up just now, so if you could just get me the reference, I'll check it out.  You haven't offended me at all, so don't worry about that.  I agree with you on the stronger bit, but I think you are contradicting yourself.  If black magic makes demons stronger, then of course God wouldn't approve of it, you see.  (I'm sorry if I'm coming off as an annoying know it all.  Even if I hadn't gone to Bible college, I'd still be terribly opinionated, lol!)

I don't know pianissimo.  I didn't feel "more full" after I was baptised, but I do know there is such a thing as "baptism of the holy Spirit."  Sometimes in the Bible it happed right at water baptism, sometimes, like in the upper room, not.  Personally, I've never had "baptism of the holy Spirit" like some, but I do know I'm saved, and that I have a living relationship with God.  Your analogy probably does have merit though.  I just don't think it's a hard and fast formula, not that you said it was, of course.  But, it would work in many cases, I'm sure, and it parallels Bible accounts.

[thalbergmad]

WOW, I didn't expect to see this many posts.

Today, when I opened up the office everything seemed OK. Then I made myself a cup of coffee and went to place it on the cup mat. Mine was not there, so i thought i would take another one from somebody else's desk, but they had all gone. After a lot of searching, I found them all piled up neatly beside one of the windows.

I was the last one out of the office Monday night and the first one in this morning. There are only 2 sets of keys. I have one and my boss has the other. Whilst it is possible she came back in, I would doubt that very much as she was the one that legged it last week.

Anyway, I am taking a bible into work tomorrow and will hang up a few crosses.

Thanks for all of your ideas.

Regards

Thal

[pianistimo]

i know this is serious - but i had to laugh at a cartoon my daughter was watching today.  'kipper' the dog.  he finds a magic frog that says he'll grant him three wishes (of which he already has one for finding him), he has to catch him, and kiss him.  he's magic because he lives in the puddle at the end of the rainbow.  so, kipper, in his usual english way - thinks a bit before asking his wishes.  then, he says 'ok, i wish that i could catch you.'  so, immediately he's caught.  then, he says 'i'd do the third one, but i don't like kissing frogs. i wish that i didn't have to kiss you.'  so the frog says, 'wish granted.  you don't have to kiss me - wish for something else.'  so kipper says, i wish i was bigger.  suddenly he's on top of an elephant and the elephant sucks up the magic puddle.  the frog is mad at kipper for asking this - and has a fit.  so kipper, in his usual english way, thinks a bit, and then goes over and kisses the frog twice.  he gets another wish for this - and wishes for a rainbow.  then they both ride the elephant to the puddle at the end of the rainbow, the frog jumps in, and everyone's happy.

don't know why i tell this story.  maybe to distinguish fiction from fact.  anyways, seriously, the bible (whether new testament, ot, or the whole thing) will do.  especially if you open it up and put a bookmark in it or just move the red ribbon around from day to day and make it look like you are reading it.  (or, better yet, read it).  happened to read this passage today about paul and silas.  they were in prison and there was an earthquake that shook the doors open.  the prison guard - knowing that he'd be in trouble if the prisoners left was about to kill himself.  paul said something like, 'don't do that - we're all here.'  then he fell down before paul and silas and said 'sirs, what should i do to be saved?'  (he realized they were concerned for his life - and stayed) they said 'believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household.'  so lagin is right - from this statement.  perhaps an outward manifestation of his belief to others was that in verse 33-34 he was 'baptized that very night, he and all his household.'

[thalbergmad]

Or get a job in a bookshop or a hotel bedroom [depends on looks I guess ] where you should be safe.

I have not seen a Bible in a hotel bedroom for a long time. Well not in England anyway.

I think president Bliar and his PC ponces have banned it in case it upsets people from other denominations.

[pianistimo]

watched 'buffy the umpire slayer' today on mad tv.  i know i shouldn't watch it, but it's too funny.  must be more serious.  let us know where the cup mats are tommorrow.  perhaps it just someone trying to spook you - but seems unlikely since you are the last to leave and first in.   

 

[leahcim]

Can you give me the exact verse alzado, because as far as I can recall, those poles and alters were not approved of for God's people.

I dunno about poles and alters, but they drink human blood and eat human flesh.

Very Gene Simmons / Ozzy Osbourne.

[pianistimo]

wine and bread are symbols for partaking in the Spirit (spiritual flesh and blood) - the Holy Spirit.  just as we have fleshly bodies - we're supposed to take on spiritual bodies (which don't have flesh and blood).  so the flesh and blood we're talking about is SPIRITUAL.  Spirit.  if 'in the blood is life' is true for us - in the Spirit body - is life everlasting.

Satan always tries to make God look evil - to make himself look good.  but, if you read the bible closely - it always explains those difficult  passages better as you go along.  you have to read the whole chapter sometimes.  just picking one verse is more difficult to understand.

[leahcim]

Bread and Wine are symbols for the the flesh and blood of JC esq., which is something that, as you say, spiritual bodies don't have.

Then there's healing people / raising people from the dead / turning sticks into snakes / water into wine and sundry other bits of magic trickery.

[pianistimo]

but, in Christ's is life!  He lived a sinless life for us.

magic doesn't equal miracle.  usually the miracles of God are useful to someone.  healing a sick person, allowing someone to have more faith (paul), things like this.  magic is usually just for impressing people with something done by trickery.  some of the tricks pharoah used were mimicked by moses's miracles by God.  they were always better on God's side.  He is in control of natural and unnatural (to us) phenomenon.

[Bob]

Religion... no wonder why this thread grew so fast.

Try to get something documented, some kind of proof on the ghost.

Try to communicate with it.  See if it can do some work for you.  At the very least, tidy up the office. 

Praise the ghost.  Tell it it did a good job whenever it does something for you.  Build up its self-esteem that way.  It probably sucks to be a ghost and he may be very lonely.  Encourage your ghost.  After all... He's a ghost... He's got "no body."  Thank you.  Thank you.  I'm here all week.

[lagin]

Um, I'm so lost as to whose saying what now on this topic!   But, in addition to my post about the alters and poles, I wanted to add, (and if anyone want's, I'll take the time to get the actual verses and quote them word for word), that God told the Israelites to not even associate with such people, because their practices were so detestable!  Do you know that one of the most popular alters was to Molech?  They heated up the statues metal hands until they were white hot and burned their babies alive on them as a sacrifice to this Molech!  God had the Israelites rip them all down when they took over the land.  (Of course, some had to disobey, and there were consequences for that, too, but I won't go into all that now).  The reason God had the Israelites kill off those people and take their land was hugely because of their idol worship/witchcraft which were so repugnant to Him.  (Again, if anyone's interested, let me know, and I'll get the exact verses for you.)

[timothy42b]

Look, use some common sense.

I'm a Christian too but I don't believe in this kind of garbage.

Funny how people who believe in ghosts see them everywhere, and those who don't, don't. 

You're letting your imagination run wild, and there's little limit to what your brain can produce if you let it, but that doesn't make any of it real.

Why leap to the most unlikely explanation?  Your cup mat is moved.  So you go to steal somebody else's.  Duh!  That couldn't have happened to yours?  No, must have been ghosts.  Your cheese is gone.  Somebody ate your lunch?  Nah, couldn't happen, must have been ghosts. 

Religion: 
All those biblical references to "high places" refer to pagan altars placed on hills.  The Israelites were very careful to respect them.  See Isaiah. 

Bringing the Bible to work is ascribing magical powers to it.  It has none.  This is use of witchcraft, pure and simple, and it is forbidden.  If you're not a Christian of course you don't care, but why would it work?  If you are a Christian you CANNOT do that. 

lagin, you say you'd be scared all the time were it not for your faith.  Scared of what?  Things that your church says exist?  Seems a bit circular to me. 

If you want to make the case that some kinds of spirits exist (can't disprove it, after all) and can have some kind of effect on your thoughts, fine.  But creatures of spirit do not interact with the physical world.  The physical world is the realm of science.  And we know this just can't happen.  When you see physical objects moved, look for a physical cause.  Turn your brain back on, you can figure this out. 

[pianistimo]

dear timothy42b,

if God's word is as powerful as a two-edged sword, why can't we use it that way.  even if someone is not a Christian, having a bible on their work desk may begin a new chapter in someone's life.  one of reading a little here and there every day.  just because someone is new to the idea of the Spirit world does not mean they cannot affect it just as it seems to be affecting them.

you may have not experienced those strange feelings, or odd things happening and attribute them to science.  that is how you see things.  but, for others, when something is repeatedly happening - it becomes something to think about.  as bob was saying - some think that documenting it is the way to prove it to someone else.  but, if we are talking Spirit - there's probably little you can do to 'document' unless you actually see things moving.  i agree there's magic and it doesn't equal miracle.

if we are to flee from evil (satan/demons) then we aren't even interested in what he is doing.  we know from the beginning he was a liar and a murderer.  why would we even care what his little tricks and plots might be.  our will is to do the will of the Father (just as Christ gave us the example).  if we are busy doing that, we don't have time for silliness.  and, if an environment is bothering us - we leave - if the demons don't.  i think what lagin was saying about 'fear' is that if you don't rely on God's Holy Spirit - you too can become 'infected' so to speak with the fear of satan (afraid, nervous, etc) instead of having boldness in Christ.  i've always been the one to open the door, tell him where to go, and never really feel 'afraid' because even in death we have life.

[prometheus]

You people are nuts. You scare me. This is totally bizarre.

[timothy42b]

Exactly.

Where do you draw the line?

Leprechauns?  Werewolves?  Tooth Fairy?  Easter Bunny?  Santa Claus?

I claim that it is possible to be a Christian without checking your brain at the door.

I admit I cannot support this claim with evidence. 

[g_s_223]

You can get Holy Water in a Catholic church, and it might be useful to have on hand in case  of emergency.

[pianistimo]

yes.  it might work on the wicked witch of the west.  who knows!

seriously - water always seems to be used in conjunction with baptism, healing (waters moved in the pool of siloam), and for life (all things need water to live). 

fire, on the other hand is the only other baptism.  we have a choice of the two.  which one we pick is totally up to us.

[pianolist]

Well, I'm an atheist. There it is, I admit it. In the 1970s I used to work in a pianola museum that was housed in a former parish church (built about 1870, I suppose) in west London. The church was still consecrated, which means that in theory the Anglicans could have held services there, and more importantly from this topic's point of view, the bodies were still there, six feet under.

Ah, many is the time that I worked underneath grand Pianola Pianos, replacing tubing, adjusting dynamic mechanisms and so on. Before concerts I would work into the small hours, with just a small inspection light to illuminate where I was working. The rest of the church was in darkness. Perhaps around 3 am I would finally get to bed, which was up in the old organ loft. I had a torch to light the way.

So I always knew that where I was lying and working, someone else was lying a certain distance underneath me. In a way, I'm quite disappointed that I never saw any ghosts. But why would I? I don't see any reason to believe in them, and if I were a Christian, then just as in cemeteries, one is on consecrated ground. As most undertakers say, it isn't the dead one needs to be frightened of, it's the living who do the real harm.

Jonathan Miller, a brilliant English writer and stage producer, has what I regard as a very perceptive theory about all this. As a confirmed atheist himself, he always admitted that an unknown darkness would sometimes give him goose pimples. But he wisely observed that those of our ancestors who were not just a little afraid of the dark would probably have gone fearlessly out of their caves and been eaten, statistically, by tigers. So it became part of the evolved human condition to be affected by things that go bump in the night. Or things that eat cheese.

[alzado]

Addressing lagin and timothy mainly --

Timothy makes a good reference to the High Places mentioned in the Bible, which were former pagan altars and which were held in respect by the Israelites.  The ceremonial poles mentioned are also associated with these sites (e.g., "sacred groves").  The poles were sacred to a mother goddess of the region.  The very fact that scripture enjoined the Jews to honor these sites, and to worship at them, should be indicative, I believe.

For another reference, how about the song of Deborah in Judges?  This is a prayer to a pagan divinity that -- somehow -- got itself embedded in scripture.

I do feel that the Bible is inappropriate to use to forstall a poltergeist, and would probably just make one more furious than ever.  In other words, just does more harm than good.

Please consider my suggestion of placing one or more photos of Pope Benedict XVI in the office.   The Holy Father has special powers to tame unruly spirits.  (Note the strictures to Peter spoken by Jesus in the New Testament.) 

As for Timothy __ ,  I suspect that many of us are increasingly disappointed in your "flip" and disrespectful attitude toward daemonic spirits. 

How can you profess to us that you are a devout Christian, and yet you are skeptical of the existence of spirits?

Amen --------------

[verywellmister]

Yeah, Jesus said fast and pray.

Are you sure that it wasnt a person?  Ppl like to play pranks.

Then again, I've fled from places in terror when I thought there was something with me.

Bring a Bible.  Pray.  (and bring a wooden stake lol).

Geez this is scary...

[lagin]

Okay guys, give me even one exact verse to read where it says that God told the Israelites to respect and worship at the high places.  Sure, alot of kings had the people do this, but where does God every say he condones it?  Every verse I've checked has Him condemning it!

Please, don't just say it says this and that somewhere!  I gave you guys real verses, if you want to continue the discussion please do the same, because so far, I keep having to do the research on vague references mentioned to me, and after looking at the CONTEXT it only strengthens my viewpoint (like with Saul and the witch of Endor).  Besides, I'm interested to see what verses you guys are actually getting this stuff from, because I have read the Bible many times and don't ever recall God being okay with that sort of thing.

And to practice what I preach, I will give an anwer to whether there are ghosts and what not, and whether they actually interact with the physical world.  Since timothy mentioned he's a Christain, I'll use the Bible. 1 Samuel chapter 28  is where you can read the whole story of the witch at Endor which we talked about earlier, but here are a few verses.

"Then Saul disguised himself by putting on other clothes, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said, Conjure up for me, please, and bring up for me whom I shall name to you." (verse

"Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?  And he said, Bring up Samuel for me.  When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice....."  (vs. 11 - 12a) 

So, Tim, if you are a Christian and believe in the Bible, here is an exact Bible account of a ghost being called up, by Saul, the wicked king.

[brewtality]

You people are nuts. You scare me. This is totally bizarre.

My thoughts exactly.

[lagin]

Haha, I was thinking the same thing!  Well, I mean I was thinking that people ought to start thinking that soon!

[rimv2]

Recently my television has started turning of and on by itself.


It has no timers that would allow it to do this, and the remote control in usually nowhere near it when this happens.

 

[maul]

I got arraused today, randomly. I think a ghost was molesting me.

[timothy42b]

magic doesn't equal miracle.  

This is correct and points out a fundamental misunderstanding in some of the posts.  I will try to address it without being flip.  I don't mean to offend people, sometimes I get frustrated though.

Science uses the understanding of natural law to exert control or influence events.  Need to move a river?  No problem, build a dam. 

Magic uses a different set of (supernatural) laws to do the same thing.  Need to move a river, predict the future, fall in love?  Hold a seance, cast a spell.  I don't believe in this stuff, but many do.  Maybe most.  Probably most here on this forum.  I interpret believing in this stuff as highly contradictory to the Christian faith but I'm not sure I could quote chapter and verse why. 

Religion relies on divine intervention to interfere with natural laws.  This is very different from magic.  God is not bound by the laws of physics and can work miracles.  Asking for a miracle is okay, God can always say no.  (usually does)  Trying to do magic is not okay, at least for a Christian. 

Now, bringing a bible or holy water or casting a spell in an effort to get of an alleged poltergeist is pretty clearly trying to do magic, not asking for a miracle.  The Bible does not have magical powers and using it this way is disrespectful and disobedient.  It borders on idolatry - worshiping a book instead of God. 

The question of how I can be a Christian and not believe the world is filled with demons, when they are pretty clearly described in parts of the Bible, is a good one but too long for this post.  Maybe later.  You will find however I am not unique.  Even clergy (40% or so?  I'll look it up) don't. 

[pianistimo]

if you do not believe in demons, how would you know what works?  i have tried keeping my bible open (reading it) and around the house.  i feel that God's word IS powerful - and very necessary to our  lives especially when read.  it is too simple for you to believe.  we're not talking burning pages (i know you aren't either) or making a cantation out of God's word.  but, Jesus Christ give us truth which is powerful to counter satan.  if we do not know God's word, we cannot effectively distinguish truth from lie.  that is why the bible is the most effective form of getting rid of deception.  john 3:20 "for everyone who does evil hates the light (God/His word), and does not come to the light, lest his deeds be exposed.  but he who 'practices' the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."  this is Satan's dislike for God's word!  he doesn't want to be exposed for who he is.

[timothy42b]

if you do not believe in demons, how would you know what works? 

That is one way of looking at it, I admit.   

Another way is that if demons don't exist, everything will work. 

The results are going to be exactly the same. 

Or are they? 

This is like deja vu all over again.  I had a similar discussion with someone recently.  She was under extreme stress - her husband a soldier in a war zone, she raising four kids alone in a foreign country without friends and family, life threatening illness, bills piling up, creditors calling, etc.  Enough to drive anyone around the bend.  And she began to feel her apartment was haunted by the ghost of some previous tenant.  I suggested she needed some emotional support and some practical help with the kids - I was shouted down by everyone who believed she needed an exorcism.  Who really had her best interests in mind? 

[lisztisforkids]

I am beginning to beleive that if the written Bible said the Earth is flat, some of you people would still beleive it.

[g_s_223]

Have you been practising Scriabin's 9th Sonata, "Black Mass", by any chance?