To Bernhard

[chopinfan_22]

I've read some of your posts regarding certain topics. The one that intrigued me the most was your discussion on Bach's Inventions. I simply ate it up. I'm 17, and I love the piano. I've only been playing for three years, and I want to improve my technique, and I decided to work my way through all of Bach's Inventions and Well Tempered Clavier. If you can give me any information, it would be helpful. This is also probably a little much, but if you could teach me everything you know on Bach's Inventions, go through each of the pieces individually, disect them, anything. I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks

[will]

er...bernhard hasn't posted in some 3 months....try to use the advanced search function to find his posts on the inventions.

[chopinfan_22]

Ok... I've searched and I've found the order in which I should learn the two-part inventions... but what about the three-part inventions? He only gave part of them, which were the ones he thought to be the easiest.  I have the following orders:

Two Part Inventions

1, 4, 7, 8, 10, 13, 15, 14, 12, 11, 9, 6, 5, 3, 2

Three  Part Inventions

1, 3, 6, 10, 11, 12, 13


If someone could help me fill out the rest of the three part inventions, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.

[gonzalo]

Ok... I've searched and I've found the order in which I should learn the two-part inventions... but what about the three-part inventions? He only gave part of them, which were the ones he thought to be the easiest.  I have the following orders:

Two Part Inventions

1, 4, 7, 8, 10, 13, 15, 14, 12, 11, 9, 6, 5, 3, 2

Three  Part Inventions

1, 3, 6, 10, 11, 12, 13


If someone could help me fill out the rest of the three part inventions, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.

He really never talked much about the 3 part inventions but he talked a lot about the 2 part inventions

[Bob]

That sounds like quite a project -- all the 2 and 3 part inventions, and then the WTC.  That's a lot.

There is a book, "Bachanalia:  The Essential Listener's Guide to Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier", that analyzes the fugues of the WTC and is written in layperson style so it's very readable.

[chopinfan_22]

Bob, I have but one motive. I love the piano, and if I'm going to play it, I want to be able to play it well. I mean, very well. Like, tackling Chopin's Etudes, the Hungarian Rhapsody, works of this sort. But getting there is like building a wall. You have to do it brick by brick. I consider each of those inventions and preludes/fugues to be bricks. I want to increase accuracy, speed, and dexterity. What better way than to do that?

[rc]

Excellent way to look at it, the more you pay attention to detail, the more you can get from even the simplest music. Not to imply that the inventions are simple of course!

But asking Bernhard, who's disappeared as mysteriously as he came, to do all that is quite the request! It would take a book to go through everything... So check it out, book recommendations:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4912.msg46590.html#msg46590

[chopinfan_22]

Right... I realize this... but... he wouldn't have to do it all laboriously within a week or anything like that. I was thinking more along the lines of... Okay... I'm starting with Invention No. 1... then he gives me all the information necessary... a week or two pass.... I'm ready to start Invention No. 4.... then he gives me more information. But if he's been absent for so long, then I guess I can't see that happening. At the same time, I went on a college visit yesterday, and one of the professors agreed to give me lessons! I'm sure he can help me with this. And he agrees that I should go through the inventions. But I will take a look at the link you've given me. Thanks.

[bernhard]

Dear Chopinfan 22:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3187.msg27993.html#msg27993
(order of difficulty of the inventions)

You may find the order in which scholars believe Bach taught them to his pupils on these threads:


https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5143.msg49995.html#msg49995
(Inventions and sinfonias: Bach’s pedagogical order of difficulty) – see reply # 5 specifically.

This is not to say that you should follow that order. You must remember that keyboard “technique” was but one small component of a total art form that Bach aimed to pass on to his students. Of course, “finger movement” and dexterity were necessary, but they were means to an end. In all his pedagogical works (which include the WTC, the partitas, the French and English suites, etc. – that is, these works were never intended for public performance, but for private study and reflection), he was just as interested – if not more – in compositional techniques, counterpoint development, instrument tuning, and a singing style at the keyboard, where each part could be clearly and independently heard. As such these are formidably difficult pieces – yes, even the two voice inventions – if you are to explore them to the full and pay attention to every single detail. So, do not look at them as “stepping stones” to something better, or more difficult, or technically more challenging. Regard them as ends in themselves, pieces that you learn because you would love to play them and bring them to life, because all of these pieces are indeed masterpieces of unsurpassing beauty.


And here you may find more material on the inventions and sinfonias:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4736.0.html
(invention 4 – comparison with chess game and Escher)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1911.msg14853.html#msg14853
(Invention no. 8 – relative difficulty of the inventions – progressive order of Bach’s keyboard works – CD  recommendations)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2714.msg23310.html#msg23310
(how to teach invention no. 1)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4736.msg44774.html#msg44774
(how to play inventions – Escher picture – Example: Invention 4 – Analogy with the game of chess)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5055.msg48120.html#msg48120
(fingering for sinfonia no. 9)


https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7857.msg78912.html#msg78912
(ornamentation and inventions – general discussion on ornamentation)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7246.msg72307.html#msg72307
(how to outline invention 14)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8015.msg81149.html#msg81149
(ornamentation of invention no. 1)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,10304.msg106137.html#msg106137
(Analysis of invention no. 10)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[stevie]

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[chopinfan_22]

Bernhard,

If this is the case, then what do you suggest I do to increase my piano-playing ability? I've mentioned what I hope to accomplish.... but how do I get there?

[thalbergmad]

Where have you been Bernhard?

We were getting worried.

[steve jones]

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DA LEGEND RANDOMLY RETURnZ

FUNKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!

Mate, you spend randomly WAAAYYY to much time around DASDC 

[bernhard]

Bernhard,

If this is the case, then what do you suggest I do to increase my piano-playing ability? I've mentioned what I hope to accomplish.... but how do I get there?

The best way (that I found so far) to develop one´s piano (and musical) ability is to learn / play pieces that fulfill two criteria:

1.   It is a piece that you love.
2.   It is a piece that for you, and for your present stage of development represents a challenge.

Let me expand somewhat.

1.   You must love the piece in the way one loves a spouse. It cannot be a momentary lust that will survive only a one-night stand. It has to be the sort of love that will lead you to go through all sorts of drudgery and mind-numbing boredom in order to master the piece in its finest detail. In fact, the love of a spouse may not even be enough (see the number of divorces), it may have to be more like the love of a son / daughter.

This is one of the reasons technical exercises, and standard pieces one plays because one has to (the “broccoli school” of piano pedagogy: you may not like it, but it´s good for you) never works: if you don´t love the piece to bits, you will not put up with the discipline required to learn / perfect it.

2.   It is very important to make a distinction between pieces that are challenging and pieces that are too difficult / impossible. Challenging pieces are the ones that you cannot play yet, but you feel that you just could do it if you were to put the right effort and had the right instruction. They are just a little beyond you. They will take effort, but you will conquer them, and the process of doing so will be empowering and exhilarating. You will feel great not only when you master them, but during the learning stage as well. It will be like the night before Christmas. You can hardly sleep because you want to wake up and practise!

Difficult / Impossible pieces are a very different sort. You will know immediately that they are well beyond your present skills. Working on them will soon become torture. and no matter how much work you put on them you never gat any better. In fact you may observe that you are getting [i[worse[/i].  You will start avoiding them, and soon you will not even be able to hear them without all sorts of negative feelings. Moreover, you will probably develop all sorts of bad habits when working on them, and these will stay with you. It is very important to avoid difficult / impossible pieces at any point in one´s study.

However, a difficult / impossible piece does not stay like that for long. When a student first starts, Fur Elise may be completely impossible, but after 6 months – one year, it may have become just challenging. Finally it is mastered and becomes easy. The next challenging piece, may be the Moonlight´s first movement, but at this point the third movement may be completely impossible. You get the idea.

So you develop your piano playing by first of all, making a list of your favorite pieces, the ones you would love to play. Then you order them by order of difficulty, from the easiest to the most impossible. Then you just learn them in that order, so that one piece leads to the next in a sequence of ever increasing challenges. If you feel you cannot do that, ask your teacher for help (or come back here with your list).

What I am trying to get at is: Do not learn a piece simply because you believe it will be good for you. Learn it because you love it and if it is challenging, it will develop your pianistic/musical abilities. If it is easy, it will be another worthwhile addition to your repertory.

Have a look at these related threads as well:

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7810.msg80415.html#msg80415
(How to organise the breaking down of a piece over several days. Examples: CPE Bach Fantasia, Blow Sarabande, Chopin Cantabile; Chopin Scherzo no. 2)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7872.msg79188.html#msg79188
(How to plan your work for the next five years)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7664.msg77057.html#msg77057
(How to break a piece in sessions – Example: Invention no. 1).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/board,4/topic,4880.3.html#msg46319
(discusses how to acquire technique and what technique actually is)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4082.msg37362.html#msg37362
(one cannot learn technique in a vacuum. At the same time one cannot simply play pieces – comparison with tennis)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4385.msg41226.html#msg41226
(technique is personal and relative to the piece – Fosberry flop – the best books on technique)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4734.msg44770.html#msg44770
(how to acquire virtuoso technique – aiming at 100 pieces in five years)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5352.msg50998.html#msg50998
(Exercises x repertory – why technique cannot be isolated from music)



Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[chopinfan_22]

Right... but the thing is... all the pieces that I would love to play seem to be what you would consider impossible for me right now. Like... Chopin's Winter Wind Etude, the Hungarian Rhapsody, Chopin's Sonatas.... I guess I could make out a list... it can't really hurt... I just want to be able to move across the keys like you see all those awesome musicians do... I'm sure they had to learn things that they didn't want to... but look at them now.

[abell88]

Maybe you should look at this thread for easier pieces...you might find some that are just as beautiful, but easier to accomplish at this point:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7008.0.html

(beautiful music that is not hard to play -- started by Bernhard)

[chopinfan_22]

Yes.... and I have found one.... Liszt's Third Consolation.... simply beautiful. I've got the music, courtesy of sheetmusicarchive, and I'm starting to look at it. That'll be my first piece.

[chopinfan_22]

I've come up with a list of pieces that I would ever want to play.

1. Liebestraume -- Liszt
2. Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 -- Liszt
3. Consolation No. 3 -- Liszt
4. Sonata Op. 4 -- Chopin
5. Nocturne Op. 9 No. 2 -- Chopin
6. Etude Op. 10 No. 12 -- Chopin
7. Etude Op. 25 No. 1 -- Chopin
8. Etude Op. 25 No. 4 -- Chopin
9. Etude Op. 25 No. 11 -- Chopin
10. Etude Op. 25 No. 12 -- Chopin
11. Minute Waltz -- Chopin
12. Heroic Polonaise -- Chopin
13. Fantasie-Impromptu -- Chopin
14. Raindrop Prelude -- Chopin
15. Prelude Op. 28 No. 14 -- Chopin
16. Moonlight Sonata -- Beethoven
17. Pathetique Sonata -- Beethoven
18. Waldstein Sonata -- Beethoven
19. Tempest Sonata -- Beethoven
20. Appassionata Sonata -- Beethoven
21. Prelude No. 2 in C# Minor -- Rachmaninoff
22. Reverie -- Debussy
23. Claire de Lune -- Debussy
24. Prelude No. 1, Suite Burgamesque -- Debussy
25. Arabesque No. 1 -- Debussy
26. Prelude No. 1, Book I -- Debussy



And that's all I can think of.

[alzado]

Bernhard writes:

The best way (that I found so far) to develop one´s piano (and musical) ability is to learn / play pieces that fulfill two criteria:

1.   It is a piece that you love.
2.   It is a piece that for you, and for your present stage of development represents a challenge.

Well, thank you!  That is sort of where I am at, at age 64. 

Here's another way to look at it.  Suppose you have no ulterior motives.  There's no teacher glaring at you and demanding this or that.  No parents to frown if your recital piece is not polished.  No course credit for Piano 101.  Any consideration of "judging" to attain a certain grade of proficiency -- come on!  We will even go further -- almost no one ever hears you play except your two cats.  And of course, yourself.

That's about where I am at.  Just me, retirement, and the grand piano.  None of the above considerations are a bother to me.

I spend a LOT of time researching music, seeking and finding pieces to play. 

When I do find pieces I am motivated to learn, they more or less fit your criteria as stated above.

-----------------------

I liked your comments on the broccoli school.

-----------------------------

It is nice that you visit the forum.  I hope this posting finds you both well and happy.

[kelly_kelly]

I've come up with a list of pieces that I would ever want to play.

1. Liebestraume -- Liszt
2. Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 -- Liszt
3. Consolation No. 3 -- Liszt
4. Sonata Op. 4 -- Chopin
5. Nocturne Op. 9 No. 2 -- Chopin
6. Etude Op. 10 No. 12 -- Chopin
7. Etude Op. 25 No. 1 -- Chopin
8. Etude Op. 25 No. 4 -- Chopin
9. Etude Op. 25 No. 11 -- Chopin
10. Etude Op. 25 No. 12 -- Chopin
11. Minute Waltz -- Chopin
12. Heroic Polonaise -- Chopin
13. Fantasie-Impromptu -- Chopin
14. Raindrop Prelude -- Chopin
15. Prelude Op. 28 No. 14 -- Chopin
16. Moonlight Sonata -- Beethoven
17. Pathetique Sonata -- Beethoven
18. Waldstein Sonata -- Beethoven
19. Tempest Sonata -- Beethoven
20. Appassionata Sonata -- Beethoven
21. Prelude No. 2 in C# Minor -- Rachmaninoff
22. Reverie -- Debussy
23. Claire de Lune -- Debussy
24. Prelude No. 1, Suite Burgamesque -- Debussy
25. Arabesque No. 1 -- Debussy
26. Prelude No. 1, Book I -- Debussy



And that's all I can think of.

I found the Arabesque and the Raindrop prelude easier than most Bach inventions. But that's just me.

[chopinfan_22]

But back to the main point of the discussion (which is, at this point, obtaining technique). I've read through all the threads. If you look at the thread in Performance, entitled "So You Think You're Good", where jemboy is playing Liszt's Mazeppa. I want to be able to play like that. I want to have the technique to be able to play something like that, and for it to be easy. I want my hands to be able to move like that. That's what I want... that's what I want to work on.

[dough_mouse]

Bernhard, I have a tendency to try to learn pieces which most people think Im crazy to try, including my teacher, but I cant tell always if a piece is out of my range and impossible for me. For example, I finished performing the Scriabin 8/12 this morning and picked out the Liszt Transcendental etude no. 12 (Chasse-Neige or something), and asked my teacher if I could learn it for my next piece, and he said it was way too difficult. But i sight read some of it and came back later and he agreed to consider it. I dont understand where the piece is impossible for me; I see places where its obviously difficult and will take a lot of work, but to me it looks like I could do it. So what do I do in a situation like this? I know I will work hard on it because I really like the piece (although I have a strong tendency to the one-night infatuation) and listening to recordings...I dont know, I think i can do it in 7 months or something. How do I tell? Do you think its too hard?

[henrah]

Bernhard, I have a tendency to try to learn pieces which most people think Im crazy to try, including my teacher, but I cant tell always if a piece is out of my range and impossible for me. For example, I finished performing the Scriabin 8/12 this morning and picked out the Liszt Transcendental etude no. 12 (Chasse-Neige or something), and asked my teacher if I could learn it for my next piece, and he said it was way too difficult. But i sight read some of it and came back later and he agreed to consider it. I dont understand where the piece is impossible for me; I see places where its obviously difficult and will take a lot of work, but to me it looks like I could do it. So what do I do in a situation like this? I know I will work hard on it because I really like the piece (although I have a strong tendency to the one-night infatuation) and listening to recordings...I dont know, I think i can do it in 7 months or something. How do I tell? Do you think its too hard?

Only you will know if it's too hard. Your teacher cannot know exactly what you are capable of. They can know a fair bit, but not exactly what you can do, as only you know that. Therefore, as you think of it as a difficult, but possible piece, go for it.
Henrah

[emmdoubleew]

I have to disagree with Henrah, I think your teacher knows more than you do.

It's not just being able to play a piece, you can judge that. It's about being able to really do something with it and not just "fake" it. Playing the notes is just one tiny aspect of music making, so if you're playing a piece that's too hard and are barely able to play all the notes right, how can you successfully make music with it?

In addition, if you are untrained, serious injury can result from playing too difficult piano. And only your teacher can almost judge if a piece is up to your technical level, asumming it's a good knowledgable teacher who knows his pieces.

[lostinidlewonder]

Bernhard, I have a tendency to try to learn pieces which most people think Im crazy to try, including my teacher, but I cant tell always if a piece is out of my range and impossible for me. For example, I finished performing the Scriabin 8/12 this morning and picked out the Liszt Transcendental etude no. 12 (Chasse-Neige or something), and asked my teacher if I could learn it for my next piece, and he said it was way too difficult. But i sight read some of it and came back later and he agreed to consider it. I dont understand where the piece is impossible for me; I see places where its obviously difficult and will take a lot of work, but to me it looks like I could do it. So what do I do in a situation like this? I know I will work hard on it because I really like the piece (although I have a strong tendency to the one-night infatuation) and listening to recordings...I dont know, I think i can do it in 7 months or something. How do I tell? Do you think its too hard?

I would love to have you as a student. Any of my over confident students who throw up some mad work and says can we learn this I say, suuuuuureeeeeee! And then overwhelm them (or try to at least) with the difficulty within the music. If they survive that then I'm happy to continue Often their infatuation with these peices wears down when the reality of the work required to learn it well becomes apparent.

It is always good to practice difficult pieces ON THE SIDE of other pieces closer to your level.

[m1469]

I would love to have you as a student. Any of my over confident students who throw up some mad work and says can we learn this I say, suuuuuureeeeeee! And then overwhelm them (or try to at least) with the difficulty within the music.

he he... sounds familiar