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Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything? (Read 12892 times)

Offline eddie92099

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Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
« on: October 16, 2003, 09:00:00 PM »
Is studying the 24 Chopin Etudes of opus 10 and opus 25 a suitable replacement for more "traditional" exercises such as Hanon or Czerny?
Ed  

Sheet music to download and print: Etudes by Chopin



Offline thracozaag

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #1 on: October 16, 2003, 09:35:13 PM »
 In my opinion...ABSOLUTELY.  If I ever had a student from scratch that had talent, I'd definitely have him/her play all the etudes, regardless of speed.  And they're such extraordinary pieces of music, as well.
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Offline Hmoll

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #2 on: October 16, 2003, 10:55:11 PM »
Good question, Ed.

I'm not 100% convinced that Hanon is good for very much. There are arguments for and against them.  In the vast majority of cases, though, students begin practicing the Hanon exercises - at least book I  - before  they are able to play any of the Chopin etudes, so in that way, Hanon is not a replacement.

Studying Czerny etudes, on the other hand, is more useful for playing Mozart, Haydn, Clementi, and even Beethoven. I don't think playing Chopin etudes will improve your Mozart as much as Czerny would.
It's important not to play Czerny the way he indicated - still hand, emphasizing movement of the fingers more than the hand. If you study Czerny, you should do so with a more "modern" technique - applying principles of weight, proper arm and hand movement, etc. - because of the difference in the instrument today compared to Czerny's time.

Chopin's etudes are useful for learning Chopin's piano technique, and you can easily find the application of his etudes in just about all his other music. I'm not saying, btw, that they are limited in usefulness only to Chopin's music, though.

I know you and I had a discussion a while back regarding acquisition of technique from the pieces vs. exercises, scales and etudes. Believe it or not, I mostly agree with what you said, and you are better off learning technique from actual music. Where I disagreed was regarding scales, which are important to learn, and practice, at least in the beginning years, and also I was less dismissive of scales/exercises because they are simply another tool at ones disposal
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Offline Beethoven87

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #3 on: October 17, 2003, 01:36:56 AM »
Very interesting question...  (and very good point, Hmoll).  I'd have to agree that Chopin etudes will prepare you for anything else you may come across in Chopin, and definetly some other things.  BUt as far as technical exercises, I think Phillipe is absolutely INDISPENSIBLE for developing technique and independance of the fingers.
Et cetera

Offline allchopin

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #4 on: October 17, 2003, 02:14:31 AM »
I think the etudes vary from age group to age group, because little kids generally will not be able to "hand"le the etudes as well as adults.  Children are probably going to be better off learning simpler scales and chords etc (like Hanon), not that the Etudes are completely outlawed, while adults could use the Etudes for their study.
The 24 are designed for techincal virtuoso adeptness, not for basic study.  They pretty much cover every type of technical skill, but leave out more subtle ones used in Mozart/Beethoven, for example.

In short, yes.  :P
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Offline chromatickler

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #5 on: October 17, 2003, 03:06:03 PM »
They cover everything for the RIGHT HAND.

For the left hand, there's always the Godowsky versions.

Offline thracozaag

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #6 on: October 17, 2003, 05:56:36 PM »
Good point, although 10 #9 is a good lh finger stretcher.
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Offline thracozaag

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #7 on: October 17, 2003, 05:57:33 PM »
Quote
Very interesting question...  (and very good point, Hmoll).  I'd have to agree that Chopin etudes will prepare you for anything else you may come across in Chopin, and definetly some other things.  BUt as far as technical exercises, I think Phillipe is absolutely INDISPENSIBLE for developing technique and independance of the fingers.



 You're telling me that learning Op. 25 #6 from an early age won't develop finger independence? ;D
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Offline eddie92099

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #8 on: October 17, 2003, 07:37:35 PM »
Thanks that was the response I was hoping for! Now I have to go and learn them all  :-/!
Ed

Offline Beethoven87

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #9 on: October 18, 2003, 07:36:56 AM »
"You're telling me that learning Op. 25 #6 from an early age won't develop finger independence?"  

Haha...  Ok, ?I see what you mean, but expecting anyone un der the age of at LEAST ten or eleven ot even attempt to do some of the things this peice expects of you is crazy.  If you started at, say, seven, my opinion is that because you wouldn't be able to concentrate long enough to make progress each day.  Studies show that expecting too much "pyrotechnics" from a young child is damaging to developing muscle tissues in the hand (sorry, can't remeber exactly where I read that).  And like someone else said, this would be good for the RIGHT hand, but wouldn't cover both.  The fact is, I wouldn't do any extensive technique training befor age eight or ten or so.  I'd focus more on just learning about the piano, and developing a sense of dynamics and so forth (which ISN'T to say I wouldn't make em' do scales from day one).
Et cetera

Offline opus10no2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #10 on: February 19, 2007, 01:59:00 AM »
Interesting topic.

I would like to say that, the Chopin etudes, including the Wuhrer inversions, cover virtually everything necessary to indicate, if played at competitive tempo, the complete technical facilities of a pianist.

There is a distilled rawness and simplicity to the extended figurations that lend themselves ideally the the display of raw dex and endurance.
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Offline dnephi

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #11 on: February 19, 2007, 02:05:05 AM »
Seconded-need God-Chop.  What about the 3 etudes for moscheles Methodes a methodes? 

For bravura, you need to study....

the Liszt Etudes

or Lyapunov

or Czerny (yes it's true, czerny wrote etudes in octave leaps ;).)

"Chopin never played anything requiring bravura or endurance.  The study in C minor (Op. 25 No. 12) he never played."

- Liszt  (Quote poss)
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline opus10no2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #12 on: February 19, 2007, 02:14:53 AM »
Yes, bravura, as in - tiring octaves and repeated chords.

But remember, there is the 25/10!

It has an extended sequence of octaves unmatched in all of Liszt's etudes!

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Offline desordre

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #13 on: February 19, 2007, 06:00:29 AM »
 Dear Fellows:
 I think that was Mr. Bernhard that wrote something like that:
 "If you play all Bach's WTC, all Beethoven's Sonatas, and all Chopin's Etudes, you don't need anything else."
 Well, I agree a lot with that, but what Dnephi pointed out is of utmost importance: music didn't end in 1837, when Chopin finished his opus 25. At least Liszt's ( ;D) and Ligeti's Etudes have a lot to add to the former three composers.
 Best!
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Offline opus10no2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #14 on: February 19, 2007, 09:35:32 AM »
I feel that the Liszt and Ligeti, among most others since Chopin, are actually not traditional etudes.

The ideal format for an etude-

If the primary figuration is in one hand, the other hand should have a secondary focus in the etude to provide musical interest, but not to compete technically with the other hand.
This is because, in playing the etude, one hand will always(by human nature) be able to go faster than the other, rendering the secondary hand difficuly useless as a means for comparing dexterity.
The only exception to this should be pieces which deal with co-dependant hand figurations, such as alternating hand chord, octaves, etc.
Pieces with with independant hands of equal difficulty can be interesting, but they are not the ideal format for etudes, because one hand will inevitably hold the other back and ruin it's potential to be a true test of speed.

Also the figuration involved should ideally actually not be that elaborate.
Core figurations are more useful than compound figurations.
Compound figurations are hybrids and tax 2 or more elements of the mechanism at once.
Core figurations(as I use the term) are more intensive in revealing the raw mechanical abilities of the pianist.

Also the figuration should last(with all of it's musical permutations) for the duration of the etude.

Liszt etudes fail to do this, and this is why they are actually easier in quite a few ways.

They demand a wider range of figurations, but do not thoroughly exhaust the possibilities of each, and moreover - they do not fully exhaust the pianist with them!
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Offline franzliszt2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #15 on: February 19, 2007, 11:17:36 PM »
The chopin 3rds etude has a major problem...it doesn't do double major chromatic 3rds!! and when it comes to Liszt 2nd concerto it annoys me becasue I have done this "almighty" 3rds etude, and when I learnt Liszt 2 I was crippled at the sight of 3rds!!! That annoyed me. And it doesn't touch LH 3rds! So I was left very annoyed after doing Chopin op25no6.

I find it hard to imagine the Liszt etudes as etudes. I find them amazing pieces of music, and the same goes for the Chopin, but for some reason I get more musical satisfaction from Liszt. Chopin etudes get a bit boring after a while, I mean they are great, but op10no1, all the same. Op10no2, all the same. Op10no3, great piece, shame about awful middle section imo. op10no4 is the best etude ever. I learnt the most I've ever learnt about technique from that. etc.. The Liszt etudes vary greatly, and I just enjoy them more. Technically I would say the Liszt are easier as a set. They are more pianistic, but easier.

I think these are the pinnacle of technique. I think czerny and hannon etc.. is essential to study before any of the big etudes by Liszt, chopin, Ligeti, Debussy etc.. The Chopin have so many difficulties that most people just ignore. Has anyone ever looked at how many times Chopin writes "sempre legato" in op10no2? yet how many non legato or pedalled versions do we hear? Far to many.

Offline nanabush

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #16 on: February 20, 2007, 01:11:19 AM »
I understand what Op10no2 is saying 'bout the Liszt etudes... They have sort of a 'resting' point somewhere during the etude.
Interested in discussing:

-Prokofiev Toccata
-Scriabin Sonata 2

Offline xavierm

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #17 on: February 20, 2007, 02:20:44 AM »
Of course they don't cover everything.

But they are good for sooo much!!

Offline houseofblackleaves

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #18 on: February 20, 2007, 03:11:36 AM »
Chopin's virtuoso etudes are focused technecal studies as well as brilliant peices of music.  The Liszt etudes are just difficult peices of music. (Which are also brilliant.)

I still think that you'd get more if you learned all of the Chopin etudes, as a pose learning all of the Liszt etudes.  I think that if you were to go from all of the Liszt etudes to the Chopin etudes, you would still have major difficulty with several of the technecal demands that were either not used at all or not stressed as much.

Make sense? (I'm tired, so I'm probobly making no sense.)

I still think that lots of the Liszt etudes are very important to learn, such as douze grandes etudes (Well, not as good peices as the Transcendentals, but much more difficult) La Campanella, Mazzepa, and especially Feux Follets. 


Another thing, I also think that the best etudes that experiment with dissonance are the Rachmaninoff etudes, which I think are a great way to develop (and experiment) with one's musicality.

My answer anyways... I think that the Chopin etudes (and any other "spinoffs") cover more than any other etude set, and unless you're attempting something outragiously difficult (Xenakis or Sorabji anyone?) You'll be fine.

Offline opus10no2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #19 on: February 20, 2007, 04:21:19 AM »
The chopin 3rds etude has a major problem...it doesn't do double major chromatic 3rds!! and when it comes to Liszt 2nd concerto it annoys me becasue I have done this "almighty" 3rds etude, and when I learnt Liszt 2 I was crippled at the sight of 3rds!!! That annoyed me. And it doesn't touch LH 3rds! So I was left very annoyed after doing Chopin op25no6.

I find it hard to imagine the Liszt etudes as etudes. I find them amazing pieces of music, and the same goes for the Chopin, but for some reason I get more musical satisfaction from Liszt. Chopin etudes get a bit boring after a while, I mean they are great, but op10no1, all the same. Op10no2, all the same. Op10no3, great piece, shame about awful middle section imo. op10no4 is the best etude ever. I learnt the most I've ever learnt about technique from that. etc.. The Liszt etudes vary greatly, and I just enjoy them more. Technically I would say the Liszt are easier as a set. They are more pianistic, but easier.

I think these are the pinnacle of technique. I think czerny and hannon etc.. is essential to study before any of the big etudes by Liszt, chopin, Ligeti, Debussy etc.. The Chopin have so many difficulties that most people just ignore. Has anyone ever looked at how many times Chopin writes "sempre legato" in op10no2? yet how many non legato or pedalled versions do we hear? Far to many.


LH thirds are covered inthe Wuhrer and Godowsky versions of 25/6.

Major 3rds, of course, are different, but they do use and exercise the same finger motions.
Having experiece with all double note scales is useful, but consistent practice is only necessary with 3rds and 6ths, as they are the most common, and they 'rub off' on the rest.

I have said in another thread that the Chopin etudes are actually open to further technical exploration, and new versions.

The revolutionary in LH octaves SHOULD actually become a standard etude.
25/12 can be made into a myriad of crossing hand/chord etudes.
10/2 can be transformed into an interlocking chromatic octaves study.

By the fact that most of them are of a 'perpetual moto' nature, and wonderful pieces of music, they lend themselves to be transformed into any number of figurations.

The Godowsky studies are all wonderful, but actually relatively few are as useful as the Chopin are at developing and displaying mechanique.

And franzliszt2- you criticize some of the Chopin studies for being 'all the same'...well that is actually their strength! to be the rigorous etudes they are.
Imagine how extremely difficult it is to compose a piece in such a restricted way, it really does take a true genius such as Chopin to make beautiful music in etudes as strict as these.
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Offline cygnusdei

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #20 on: February 20, 2007, 04:58:30 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong but repeated notes are not covered in Chopin etudes, unless you count  Op. 10 no. 7 with only pairs of repeat notes. I'm talking about extended repeat notes as in the finale of Dukas sonata, or the cadenza of the Alkan concerto (?).

Come to think about it, I think trills are also missing, as in the kind that prepares you for the cadenza of Beethoven concerto no. 3 or the finale of Saint-Saens concerto no. 2.

Offline zheer

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #21 on: February 20, 2007, 10:05:48 AM »
   If I ever had a student from scratch that had talent


  I think TALENT is the key  word here, the etudes are'nt for everyone, the majority of us can play a few etude by chopin,but only the really talented can play and perform all of them. I think Lang Lang learnt all the etudes by the age of 12.
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Offline opus10no2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #22 on: February 20, 2007, 10:14:16 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong but repeated notes are not covered in Chopin etudes, unless you count  Op. 10 no. 7 with only pairs of repeat notes. I'm talking about extended repeat notes as in the finale of Dukas sonata, or the cadenza of the Alkan concerto (?).

Come to think about it, I think trills are also missing, as in the kind that prepares you for the cadenza of Beethoven concerto no. 3 or the finale of Saint-Saens concerto no. 2.

You mean measured and precise trills?

There are only brief ones in the Chopin etudes.

They are one of the most fundamental and useful techniques, but sadly they are musically uninteresting for more than a couple of seconds.

Yes, the 10/7 is a rpt notes etude for fingers 1-2, but indeed more variety of rpt notes cant be found in the etudes, they can be found plentifully in Czerny though.

Or do you mean Alternating hand trills?
If so, yes, that's a major gap in the Chopin etudes, but it's not a particularly demanding technique on it's own, it relies upon the combined abilities of both hands.
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Offline dabbler

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #23 on: February 20, 2007, 04:39:28 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong but repeated notes are not covered in Chopin etudes, unless you count  Op. 10 no. 7 with only pairs of repeat notes. I'm talking about extended repeat notes as in the finale of Dukas sonata, or the cadenza of the Alkan concerto (?).

I agree. But AFAIK repeated notes are not featured prominently anywhere in Chopin. This certainly is Liszt territory (Campanella, Tarantella from Venezia e Napoli, ...), but also Debussy's etude "For the repeated notes" is a good one.

Offline phil13

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #24 on: February 20, 2007, 05:10:04 PM »
No, Chopin's etudes do not cover everything, but they cover a lot of the important technical challenges.

Many of the technical and musical figurations lacking in Chopin's studies can be found in York Bowen's 12 etudes Op.46. They cover, in order:

1. Chords of Heavy Quality (Weight Touch)
2. Light Staccato Chords (Hand Touch)
3. The 5 Fingers (Finger Touch and Legato)
4. Forearm Rotation
5. Glissandi
6. Pianissimo Legato Playing and Melody
7. Lateral Freedom of Hand and Arm
8. Finger Staccato
9. Pedal Effects
10. Octaves
11. Brilliancy in Passagework (Hand + Finger Combined)
12. Trills and Tremolos


Phil

Offline etudes

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #25 on: February 22, 2007, 03:18:23 AM »
I would say Chopin 24 etudes,Godowsky,Liszt Mazeppa,Feux Follets and La campanella will be enough for the whole life
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Offline opus10no2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #26 on: February 22, 2007, 11:10:56 AM »
The thing that causes confusion is the sheer amount of figurations that can be executed on the piano by 5/10 fingers.

Having etudes for every single permutation of every single figuration would be pointless and inordinately time-consuming.
The most efficient and complete way to go about assimilating this effect without all the unneccesaries would be to have etudes for all of the PRIMARY core figurations.
The primary core figurations are of such a nature , that they rub off and quite thoroughly 'cover' EVERY other figuration, because they are all descendants of these primary core ones.
Of course this rubbing off is a huge factor, but naturally still for maximum efficiency and speed potential for every descendant figuration and variation, some practice would be needed....but this is a 'cross when you come to it' type situation, because it would be a pointless practice unless it is in a specific piece that's being worked on.

Anyway, the point of this discussion is to come up with the primary core figurations the Chopin etudes(including the Wuhrer inversions to cover the other hand) do not use, or do not fully exhaust.

I'd say the following are figurations/raw motions it doesn't cover-

ALT hand figurations of any kind, including alt octs, chords, and alt runs and hybrids.

CHORDS - extended perpetual passages of thick chords at extreme tempo
This difficulty IS dealt with in Sorabji, but it actually is possible to write as difficult/effective and challenging and etude for this difficulty in Chopin-like or Lisztian tonality.

RPT notes - Czerny used these plentifully in his studies, but Chopin appeared to be uninterested is the same thing, the closest to it are the 10/7 and prelude op28/12.



I'll add more later..
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Offline opus10no2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #27 on: February 22, 2007, 12:55:29 PM »
Actually there are some very difficult figurations that aren't used at all, which are mostly musically impractical.
Such as things found in the dohnanyi exercises, and things like holding down the other fingers while moving one finger laterally.
I mean try holding CDE and the upper C, all with the RH, and moving the ring finger to play all the notes between the E and upper C.
Extremely demanding on raw dexterity, but very impractical as a musical figuration.

Also, there is the 10/2 for outer fingers with the other fingers being held/plucking notes.
Also the Busoni exercise version, which is like the Ignus Fatus Godowsky version(melody notes with inner fingers and other notes with outer).
But what about having outer notes held with 1 and 5, while having an internal rapid line of single or even double notes with fingers 2,3 and 4? An interesting possibility, primary unique difficulty being the crossing over of fingers 2/3/4 over eachother.

Actually, lateral movements of the fingers is something which isn't covered with much intensity in any music...


Speaking of lateral movement, this is something uniquely found in Sorabji, Finnissy, Xenakis and the like.

There are 2 types of lateral movement techniques -

1 -A smallest - is a slight ROTATION of the wrist plus a slight lateral movement of the wrist joint. B slightly larger - slight rotation for the 'arc' too, but more lateral wrist joint movement.
Basically within this range, more rotation for the smaller intervals, and more lateral for the larger, up to a certain limit which leads us to...

2 - movements too large for the wrist joint, done with upper arm and shoulder.


Small leaps are in the 25/4, and Liszt's la campanella, but true - this technique is much more in demand consistently in the more modern composers.
This is not to say the same difficulty could be applied in more tonal and mass-appealing music, because I actually feel that it should!
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Offline dabbler

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #28 on: February 22, 2007, 01:00:42 PM »
ALT hand figurations of any kind, including alt octs, chords, and alt runs and hybrids.

Can you give some example pieces? Oh well, Cziffra's bumble bee for alternating octaves.... Anything more tasteful?  ;)

CHORDS - extended perpetual passages of thick chords at extreme tempo
This difficulty IS dealt with in Sorabji [...]

You needn't go for Sorabji for that, I think. Schumann or Prok toccatas, or Prok Suggestion.... If we mean the same technique...

Offline opus10no2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #29 on: February 22, 2007, 01:18:33 PM »
Tasteful?
Thats an awesome piece, actually, are you criticizing the figuration of alt octs themselves?

Extended alt-hand work can be found in the final section of Alkan's 39/8.

Also there is a Dohnanyi etude which deals with an interesting figuration of alt-single notes, with hands interlocked.


About chords - yes the Prokofiev has some, although I dont think the Schumann has.

I don't mean simple repeated chords, I mean rapidly changing chords, rapidly changing the position of the hands and their 'chord grasp'.
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Offline dabbler

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #30 on: February 22, 2007, 01:36:53 PM »
Tasteful?
Thats an awesome piece, actually, are you criticizing the figuration of alt octs themselves?

Ok, "tasteful" maybe was too strong a word  :) I've just never seen anyone who can still convey the nervous feel of the original or the Rach transcription with this one. It seems so impossible not to sound clumsily. Have never heard Cziffras own playing of it, though... As an etude, I guess, it's a perfect one, although far from my reach.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #31 on: February 23, 2007, 04:02:17 AM »
If you can play all the Chopin Etudes WELL you should be able to play most things you come across for the piano. It will not prepare you for everything though, since it is impossible to cover every single action possible at the keyboard and I still don't think every single action has been worked out even to this day.

I disagree that we study a particular piece to attain the ability to produce a technical feat. We are always focusing on the sound production not the physical action, with the right sound comes the right action much more often that not. The right action might not necessarily produce the desired sound however, first we must understand and produce the correct sound, then we focus on making the action as comfortable and effortless as possible, not the other way around.

Although etudes are written to train a particular motions rarely will you find that you have to use it with such frequency in other pieces. So indeed making strong one technical aspect of your piano playing could be useless in the overall picture of your piano playing (and also can waste a lot of time, you can spend years on mastering all the intricacies of multiple chord actions in one hand but the reality is not many pieces are written to ask it from us!). You are simply focusing on mastering one little area instead of developing a broad sense of how you play EVERYTHING.

Being able to play for instance a piece which is full of very fast 3rds doesn't prove much because you do not get many pieces which are composed only of thirds throughout. Do you take a piece and play it mediocre and then when thirds come up you prove that you can do it balanced and controlled but with little musical expression or intelligence? Its like a mud cake with nice sweet icing on top, or a pig with a gold ring through its nose.  :-*

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Offline opus10no2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #32 on: February 23, 2007, 07:02:00 AM »
since it is impossible to cover every single action possible at the keyboard and I still don't think every single action has been worked out even to this day.

No, this is not true, there are possibly more figurations - but actions...as in raw figuration elements that are used to build up the fabric of more complex figurations?
No here are not more actions, there are as many actions as there are joints and distances.

I disagree that we study a particular piece to attain the ability to produce a technical feat. We are always focusing on the sound production not the physical action, with the right sound comes the right action much more often that not. The right action might not necessarily produce the desired sound however, first we must understand and produce the correct sound, then we focus on making the action as comfortable and effortless as possible, not the other way around.

Much better you than I...

Although etudes are written to train a particular motions rarely will you find that you have to use it with such frequency in other pieces. So indeed making strong one technical aspect of your piano playing could be useless in the overall picture of your piano playing (and also can waste a lot of time, you can spend years on mastering all the intricacies of multiple chord actions in one hand but the reality is not many pieces are written to ask it from us!). You are simply focusing on mastering one little area instead of developing a broad sense of how you play EVERYTHING.

No.  With non-core primary figurations, indeed, there is little point in practicing them extensively except in the context of a particular piece which demands then.
But, as I stated previously, working on the CORE figurations, exercising all of the primary and secondary joints involved in piano playing, IS useful for everything and has a positive effect of everything one plays.

The point of these etudes is to distill and isolate a movement/basic figuration and exhaust it physically and musically.
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Offline franzliszt2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #33 on: February 23, 2007, 09:51:40 AM »
To play the chopin etudes well is a HUGE feat of technical and musical strength. Most people play them badly, and play them some suerficially.

I find Brahms paganini variations cover a lot of ground. 6ths, octaves, repeated notes, LH thirds, RH3rds. Alternating hands, weak fingers.

For fast chords, Alkan festin d'estope is good. Rhapsody on a theme of paganini has some very hard chordal passages.

Offline dnephi

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #34 on: February 23, 2007, 12:38:43 PM »
Rachmaninoff E-Ts can cover harsh leaps and thick, quickly changing chords.

Reger as well.

Dan
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Offline opus10no2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #35 on: February 23, 2007, 04:15:33 PM »
Rachmaninoff E-Ts can cover harsh leaps and thick, quickly changing chords.

Reger as well.

Dan

They can, but the Chopin etudes deal with their difficulties for a longer period of time.

I'm quite convinced that every unique difficulty found in the works of Xenakis, Sorabji, and Finnissy, could be made into or found in something of a more appealing tonality, like that of Chopin/Liszt.

That is, every difficulty but the sheer randomness.
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Offline dnephi

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #36 on: February 23, 2007, 05:23:22 PM »
They can, but the Chopin etudes deal with their difficulties for a longer period of time.

I'm quite convinced that every unique difficulty found in the works of Xenakis, Sorabji, and Finnissy, could be made into or found in something of a more appealing tonality, like that of Chopin/Liszt.

That is, every difficulty but the sheer randomness.

If you could tell me these difficulties and how they are overcome, I might consider utilizing them to make a few etudes a la czerny for them. 

Thanks,

Dan
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Offline opus10no2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #37 on: February 23, 2007, 05:53:37 PM »
Well, I mentioned the majority of them above, but there is also some things like independance of the hands rhythmically, dynamically, and accent-wise.

There has to be a division to define which elements are difficulties of mechanique and which are in the realm of the brain as opposed to difficulties concerning the fingers themselves.

Rhythmic complexity is all about assimilating and returning to 'base' for every beat/bar.



Observe something like this, actually rhythmically quite straight, basically just chords and octaves.

One thing about this kind of music is the inconsistency of the difficulties, alot of complex figurations and things that are demanding for the brain to process, but for the actual technique of the pianist, something consistent and extended is more difficult.
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Offline franzliszt2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #38 on: February 24, 2007, 08:48:13 PM »
Once you've got your head around that it won't be that bad.

who composed that just out of interest? I noticed you mentioned Xenakis, possibly the worst "composer" of all time! His "music" is the biggest pile of crap ever! He wasn't even a musican!!! He was a mathsmatician. He composes crap, and gives it a name. And people try to be intelligent and pretend to like it.

Offline etudes

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #39 on: February 24, 2007, 08:51:54 PM »
Once you've got your head around that it won't be that bad.

who composed that just out of interest? I noticed you mentioned Xenakis, possibly the worst "composer" of all time! His "music" is the biggest pile of crap ever! He wasn't even a musican!!! He was a mathsmatician. He composes crap, and gives it a name. And people try to be intelligent and pretend to like it.
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Offline mephisto

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #40 on: February 24, 2007, 09:33:50 PM »
Once you've got your head around that it won't be that bad.

who composed that just out of interest? I noticed you mentioned Xenakis, possibly the worst "composer" of all time! His "music" is the biggest pile of crap ever! He wasn't even a musican!!! He was a mathsmatician. He composes crap, and gives it a name. And people try to be intelligent and pretend to like it.

Actually I find his piece Evryali to be extremely beautifull. Some oh his other pieces not so...

Offline cjp_piano

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #41 on: February 25, 2007, 03:13:29 AM »
Do the Chopin Etudes "cover everything"?

NO WAY!!! Are you crazy?

The only way to cover everything is to play everything   ;D

Offline opus10no2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #42 on: February 27, 2007, 02:05:33 PM »
To make a definition -

If a piece of music is still difficult when played slowly - the difficulty is NOT mechanical.

These difficulties include - rhythm, accents, dynamics.

They're musical and 'brain' difficulties, and should be considered seperately.
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Offline franzliszt2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #43 on: February 27, 2007, 02:09:14 PM »
Everything is easy if you know what to do.

Offline opus10no2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #44 on: February 27, 2007, 02:12:41 PM »
No.
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Offline franzliszt2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #45 on: February 27, 2007, 02:23:30 PM »
Yes, how is Chopin op10no1 hard if you no how to use the arm properly? Op10no2 easy if you can find the positions, etc... any piece is like that. Rach3 is even easy if you find the correct movement and positions. This of course only works if the person has a good technique. If somethings hard, and you no why it's hard, it suddenly becomes a lot easier becasue you can solve the problem. What is a mechanical difficulty? I've never viewed the piano as mechanical. If you loosen up and totally relax everything, everything suddenly becomes free, and difficulties just dissapear.

Offline opus10no2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #46 on: February 27, 2007, 03:04:12 PM »
Hilarious.

But , no.

Actually, once notes are learnt, or you learn how to do these coordinational movements, yes, that is done.....once that is done, it is easy.

But the quest for speed/mechanique is an ongoing struggle as long as you desire to go faster.
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Offline cjp_piano

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #47 on: February 27, 2007, 05:56:06 PM »
Yes, how is Chopin op10no1 hard if you no how to use the arm properly? Op10no2 easy if you can find the positions, etc... any piece is like that. Rach3 is even easy if you find the correct movement and positions. This of course only works if the person has a good technique. If somethings hard, and you no why it's hard, it suddenly becomes a lot easier becasue you can solve the problem. What is a mechanical difficulty? I've never viewed the piano as mechanical. If you loosen up and totally relax everything, everything suddenly becomes free, and difficulties just dissapear.

it's "know"   :P

Offline jre58591

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #48 on: February 28, 2007, 12:24:32 AM »
I noticed you mentioned Xenakis, possibly the worst "composer" of all time! His "music" is the biggest pile of crap ever! He wasn't even a musican!!! He was a mathsmatician. He composes crap, and gives it a name. And people try to be intelligent and pretend to like it.
i know this is off topic, but wow, you are such a close-minded idiot for saying that. if only you spent some time analyzing and listening to some of the pieces religiously, youd know how much of a genius he was, even though his music isnt conventional or consonant.
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Offline franzliszt2

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Re: Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?
«Reply #49 on: February 28, 2007, 02:40:31 AM »
i know this is off topic, but wow, you are such a close-minded idiot for saying that. if only you spent some time analyzing and listening to some of the pieces religiously, youd know how much of a genius he was, even though his music isnt conventional or consonant.

I did a huge analysis of his music, and studied it in huge depth for part of my degree. It's awful. Why call me a close minded idiot for not liking his music??? It's personal, I dislike it in so many ways. I think that your close minded for not accepting my opinion.