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Topic: Ultra super fast chromatics  (Read 10536 times)

Offline lufia

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Ultra super fast chromatics
on: February 10, 2006, 08:35:05 AM
Im talking about super ultra lighting speed chromatics that only elite pianist can pull off. How do they do it? how do they practice it?

I find practicing at the maximum speed (playing sloppy)is maybe the way to archive such incredible speeds.

Super speeds in such pieces as rhaspody no.2, la campanella, heroic and so on.

And Chang's method of the 1234,1234,1234 method is so amaturish. i like to see him do it , all talk.
musicality

Offline musicsdarkangel

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #1 on: February 10, 2006, 08:45:20 AM
uh, that 1234 fingering is quite possible, I assure you.


My teacher can do it ridiculously fast.

Offline lufia

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #2 on: February 10, 2006, 09:02:23 AM
i've just spent 15 mins practicing it. it seems ok, but izzz doubtful. i havn't seen any concert pianist use this method.  :-X

23131231234 is the one im using and its super but not ultra sonic ><
musicality

Offline brokenagraffe

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #3 on: February 10, 2006, 09:29:23 AM
i believe that chromatics are not only a matter of how fast your fingers are moving, but also how the arm is leading the hand up and/or down the keyboard and if all is synchronized, your "super ultra lighting speed chromatics" could be acheivable. idk how else to explain it, but it works.

Offline countchocula

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #4 on: February 10, 2006, 09:29:52 AM
Im talking about super ultra lighting speed chromatics that only elite pianist can pull off. How do they do it? how do they practice it?

I find practicing at the maximum speed (playing sloppy)is maybe the way to archive such incredible speeds.

Super speeds in such pieces as rhaspody no.2, la campanella, heroic and so on.

And Chang's method of the 1234,1234,1234 method is so amaturish. i like to see him do it , all talk.

Who is Chang?  Anyway, whoever he is, the 1234 1234 method is definitely do-able, I use it myself most of the time.

Offline lufia

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #5 on: February 10, 2006, 12:45:07 PM
i believe that chromatics are not only a matter of how fast your fingers are moving, but also how the arm is leading the hand up and/or down the keyboard and if all is synchronized, your "super ultra lighting speed chromatics" could be acheivable. idk how else to explain it, but it works.

thats great advice ;D, never thought about that. these chromatics are crazi

Changs the guy who wrote that online piano technique book(which was useless to me) which he said it was free but then he starts charging people. sif
musicality

Online perfect_pitch

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #6 on: February 10, 2006, 01:02:09 PM
I have incredibly fast chromatic speeds just doing the normal C chromatic scale (2313123131312)... It's easy, all you have to do is practice slowly and build up the speed incrementaly.

And sadly enough, I have never seen ANYONE do the 1234, 1234, 1234 fingering, and to be honest it does sound incredibly stupid...  (Sorry lufia) but when you do that chances are that you will have to put your thumb under the 4th finger to hit a black note at some point during the scale, and believe me, trying to put your thumb under your 4th finger to a black note has to be one of the most uncomfortable things in Piano Playing.

I'm learning the Chopin Scherzo No. 1 with the big 4 8ve Chromatic scale at the end and I can do it at speed using the normal fingering.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #7 on: February 10, 2006, 01:05:47 PM
i think his method works for the chromatic areas that don't start with thumb on black note.  for instance i could see 1234 working for C C# D D#  and 123 for E F F#  but wouldn't you want your thumb on G? 

haven't tried that method and usually do the usual 1 3 1 3 123...  it's like doing a trill of somekind while moving your hand upward.  to me this is faster because i've practiced it more.  maybe the other way - is in actuality easier or something?  maybe it depends on the particular passage.  at least we have some options.

interesting starting with 23.  i guess that would work too!

Offline richy321

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #8 on: February 10, 2006, 05:55:23 PM
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the 1234512345.  I read recently that this is what Liszt used for fast chromatics.  At first I was shocked, but then I tried it in the left hand chromatic scale in Chopin Opus 25 no. 11 (winter wind) and amazingly it works better than the usual 12313.  It works much better than 12341234 too because the thumb always plays a white key.  It is also rythmically invigorating because the accent (if you're accenting on the beat) shifts to each finger in turn.  Try it!

Rich Y

Offline maxy

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #9 on: February 10, 2006, 07:22:44 PM
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the 1234512345.  I read recently that this is what Liszt used for fast chromatics.  At first I was shocked, but then I tried it in the left hand chromatic scale in Chopin Opus 25 no. 11 (winter wind) and amazingly it works better than the usual 12313.  It works much better than 12341234 too because the thumb always plays a white key.  It is also rythmically invigorating because the accent (if you're accenting on the beat) shifts to each finger in turn.  Try it!

Rich Y

The 1-2-3-4-5-1-2-3-4-5 works very well in Liszt TE 8.  It works also very well in a lot of Prokofiev (not just chromatic scales).  It is also a MUST in Stavinsky's Petroushka.    It can also be used in Brahms 2 (concerto), but, a lot of people are against it for valid reasons.

What is the big deal with chromatic scales?    The real challenge is when it comes to chromatic scales in thirds! (in one hand).   :(    Notorious examples found in: Chopin op 25#6,  Don Juan by Liszt.

Offline lufia

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #10 on: February 11, 2006, 08:42:18 AM


And sadly enough, I have never seen ANYONE do the 1234, 1234, 1234 fingering, and to be honest it does sound incredibly stupid...  (Sorry lufia) but when you do that chances are that you will have to put your thumb under the 4th finger to hit a black note at some point during the scale, and believe me, trying to put your thumb under your 4th finger to a black note has to be one of the most uncomfortable things in Piano Playing.


i agree.

12345,12345 haha i check it out  :P

musicality

Offline lufia

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #11 on: February 12, 2006, 11:58:57 AM
For somepne who knows the hand antanomy :o

-does practicing the chromatic work the smaller muscles in the hand? (intrinsic, the muscle lyning under the base of the thumb) i.e if you have strong abductor brevis your chromatic is much faster?
musicality

Offline m

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #12 on: February 13, 2006, 06:19:31 PM
If you want really fast chromatic scales then use 123-1234-12345 starting from E, going up. Going down (starting from C) use 4321-4321-321-321-4321-321-4321, etc.

Offline elevateme

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #13 on: February 13, 2006, 06:43:51 PM
yup marik's is definately the best. by the way if you use 12345 your thumb will eventually end up on a black note.
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Offline ralessi

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #14 on: February 13, 2006, 09:01:09 PM
the 1 3 1 3 1 2 3 1 3....... has worked for my chromatic work.  its not LIGHTNING FAST but pretty close :)

Cheers!
Ricky

Offline henrah

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #15 on: February 14, 2006, 12:52:02 PM
If you want really fast chromatic scales then use 123-1234-12345 starting from E, going up. Going down (starting from C) use 4321-4321-321-321-4321-321-4321, etc.

Just tried that method out and it works suprisingly well! Although I'm still having difficulty getting the set of 12345 smooth, especially the rise from the fourth on D to the fifth on D# - my fourth and fifth are not that agile/independent yet.

Great method Marik, cheers for sharing it!
Henrah
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Online perfect_pitch

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #16 on: February 14, 2006, 03:32:01 PM
If you want really fast chromatic scales then use 123-1234-12345 starting from E, going up. Going down (starting from C) use 4321-4321-321-321-4321-321-4321, etc.

As dumb as this might sound... that seems to be fast yes... if you do happen to have a chromatic passage that starts on c going down...

BUT...

the stupid thing is that you have different fingerings for each octave... In the first octave (C - c), you have 4321 4321-321-32  which takes you to c, but then for the next octave, you start the c on finger 2-4321-321-4321...

It just seems dumb to have a fingering where it changes each octave...

It wouldn't be too bad if you had fingering like eg... c up to the octave....

1234-123-12345   then the next octave would be 1234-123-12345 again. Keep a pattern... it's no use having different patterns for different octaves..

Offline richy321

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #17 on: February 17, 2006, 10:58:16 PM
yup marik's is definately the best. by the way if you use 12345 your thumb will eventually end up on a black note.

You're right about that, but it should work for 2 full octaves before that happens.  Then you just skip the 5th finger and go on for another 2 octaves, I think.

Offline allchopin

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #18 on: February 17, 2006, 11:52:07 PM
I never throught these threads might come in handy, but here they are:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,1683.0.html

And for proof that speed can be attainable to a certain extent using 3213131 fingering:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,9478.0.html

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #19 on: February 18, 2006, 09:12:16 AM
the stupid thing is that you have different fingerings for each octave... In the first octave (C - c), you have 4321 4321-321-32  which takes you to c, but then for the next octave, you start the c on finger 2-4321-321-4321...

It just seems dumb to have a fingering where it changes each octave...

It seems dumb only to the mind, not the body.

Piano playing should be easy on the body even if it means unconventional or irrational fingering.  Think of playing the piano without using your thumb.  This was how it was done more than three centuries ago.  Seems silly and dumb not to use it, no?

If you prioritize comfort of the body, then the mind, playing becomes significantly easier.  But most pianists prioritize comfort of the mind which is detrimental to piano technique, which requires even more practice to condition the body to do something that is not as easy or natural.  But then, many pianists don't like to use the mind in the physical act of turning movement into sound (those who practice hanon, czercy, pishna, chopin, et al...).

Offline lufia

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #20 on: February 19, 2006, 02:18:06 AM
nice that was pretty fast for 1 3 1 3 1 2 3 1 3 all chopin 8)
musicality

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #21 on: February 19, 2006, 11:50:13 PM
It all depends on how the group of note are phrased to what fingering is best to use. If the notes are phrased in particular groups of notes say groups of 4, like C C# D D#   with a legato tie, then  E F F# G   etc. You might be inclined to use 1234 1234 becaue the natural weight of the thumb will phrase the passage without effort. If each note in the chromatic scale needs to be all balanced and even then I think CC#DD#EFF#GG#AA#BC should be 23131231313123. But it is all commanded by the musical context.

I strangely enough have been unable to break a childhood habit of using (for RH) 32 32 against BbA AbG GbF and thumbs on E and C when they come into the picture when playing chromatic passages going down the keyboard. I prefer that than playing 231313123 etc reversed.
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Offline mmccarthy

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #22 on: February 20, 2006, 02:50:02 AM
But then, many pianists don't like to use the mind in the physical act of turning movement into sound (those who practice hanon, czercy, pishna, chopin, et al...).

:o Very funny.

Offline dough_mouse

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #23 on: May 30, 2006, 10:27:54 PM
Whenever I practice chromatics for the TE no.12 Chasse-Neige, after running through it 2-3 times i get a small spot of tension on the side of my forearm and i have to stop or it slows me way down. My teacher said it was posture + wrist angle, but even when I pay attention  to that stuff it still seems to happen. Also, should you be leading with the rest of your hand towards the direction youre going or keep hands perpendicular to keys at all times? My chromatics on that piece (and in general) are laughably slow, and I want them to be super fast.  :'(

What should I do?
Doughnut Disturb.

Offline henrah

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #24 on: May 30, 2006, 11:49:25 PM
Definately try and keep your hand as perpendicular to the keys as possible, and your pain is telling you the same thing. Also, paying attention to posture and wrist angle isn't the solution. The solution is playing around and experimenting with different postures and wrist angles.
Henrah
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline nervous_wreck

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #25 on: May 31, 2006, 03:31:04 AM
you have to work with the accents, i can do a recording for you of how to work if you want. ask if you're interested.

Offline henrah

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #26 on: May 31, 2006, 09:35:36 AM
Ask!
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline franzliszt2

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #27 on: June 01, 2006, 08:24:48 PM
Dotted rhythms, they help a great deal. It's just a case of experimenting and coming uo with a fingerign of your own. One will click, I spent 1 hour on double major 3rds looking for fingerings, and combinations, and now I have it.

Why not look at some music, with huge chromatics in, and see they advise a fingering, if yesm try it out.

Offline dough_mouse

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #28 on: June 01, 2006, 09:53:10 PM
Yes please, a recording would be great.

Also, the fingering I use is 4321 at the beginning with LH and then just the standard 131323 LH and 1313123 RH.
Doughnut Disturb.

Offline pianowelsh

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #29 on: June 02, 2006, 10:23:07 PM
I dont agree with the idea that you should just fudge it and go for speed as someone proposed early on. To play fast you must first practice very slow! There is no substitute for working very slowly and with gluey fingers so that the contact is maintained all the time with the key keeping the weight balanced in the arm and not too much pressure pushing into the fingers (wasted energy). I tend to practice in groups of say 4 notes and then 6 notes, floating the hand off after each and building the speed up within small chunks . Then go back to slow with metronome and go 4 notes per tick. I then do (with same metronome beat) 6 notes per tick (which works out as triplets) then 8 - all the way up to the top and back.  Its like changin gears on a car. Then move up the base rate on the metronome and push the tempo just a little more. Seymour fink advocates something similar 'pulse patterning' I believe he calls it. It works and my college proffs always advocated it. That way however fast you play it you always have the quality.  Which lets face it is more important than speed. There's no good being able to play so fast that it becomes a mush of sound that the audience cant understand. You need to stop the quest for speed when clarity becomes an issue.

Offline roflman05

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #30 on: June 04, 2006, 08:34:24 AM
im using (starting on G) 1234 123 12 123 , and it works pretty well for me.

I noticed Yundi Li , (when he played Rigoletto at a recital) using 1212 123 12 123 (starting on G).

I think he plays it really fast.

Anyone that play Yundis fingering? (very fast that is)

Offline ail

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #31 on: June 06, 2006, 12:45:25 PM
I actually like to use an alternate method for chromatics, but it depends on the piece. For Fur Elise, I came up with something strange, around 4321, but I don't play it anymore and I can't recall.
But I'm doing Chopin Noc 19 now and there is a chromatic scale towards the end, from C to Bb and I play it 1234 123 1234 which seems very fast and has the thumb only on whites. After the Bb, I play B-B with the 1st and 5th. I think it makes sense and actually I never tried the 123 with this one. Less thumb changes is better for me. Besides, I hit a different F with the left hand for each thumb (or did at the start, now I guess the left hand is more independent trying to split the time evenly by each of the three notes).

Alex

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #32 on: June 06, 2006, 11:44:05 PM
i've just spent 15 mins practicing it. it seems ok, but izzz doubtful. i havn't seen any concert pianist use this method.  :-X

23131231234 is the one im using and its super but not ultra sonic ><

i think those 'elite pianists' spend quite some time on those fingerings. longer than 15 minutes  ;D
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Offline erak

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #33 on: June 08, 2006, 05:16:47 AM
imo, best fingering: use your thumb on every white-key third. In other words, starting on C, you use 1 on C, E, G, B, D, F, etc... Fill the rest up with 234 or 23. This works starting on any key. If you want speed in chromatics, try to avoid using your thumb too much, so this pretty much works best.

Offline dough_mouse

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Re: Ultra super fast chromatics
Reply #34 on: June 10, 2006, 04:54:13 AM
Gah!!! The tension is still there! I took a break and i keep my wrists perpendicular and level and everything, but I still get the same spot of tension on the side of my forearm, usually on my left hand. This is extremely frustrating because this part is the climax of the piece and i cant practice it more than once a sitting! What do i do?
Doughnut Disturb.
 

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