Bible story about courage (where are the 10 Commandments ) ?

[m1469]

For those of you who are knowledgeable of the Bible, I am wondering if you could help me narrow down a story whose essence is about courage ?

David and Goliathe comes to mind... and of course Jesus' very life (but others would be helpful).

Daniel and the Lions....

What others ?


Thanks,
m1469

[amanfang]

How about Joshua and the battle of Jericho?

Elijah challenging the prophets of Baal is also a good one. 

[m1469]

Oh thank you !  Would you mind listing the books those stories are in ? 

[pianistimo]

there's a lot of stories of courage in the bible, but the biggest story is your own life.  i'm very happy in my heart that you have opened yours to the ideas of the bible.  even if it just 'stories' at first.  there are many lessons in life - and usually they are a combination of pleasant and unpleasant even when you're 'walking with God.' i think courage is sticking to what you believe whatever people say or do to turn you away.  just as with piano - if you really love it - you don't care about the money, the time, the investment.  it's never a waste - even if you dont' see the rewards right away.  that's like the kingdom of heaven.  to many people - it's not worth waiting for.  they want all the rewards right here and now.  but, for many that won't happen anyway - so why not take some hope now AND in the future after death.  acts 2 is cool because peter, paul and many others were persecuted and yet preached the gospel anyway.  in verse 37 thru 41 - peter convinced three THOUSAND people to get baptized that very day.  why?  because he knew that their future was at stake.  that they would gain the Holy Spirit through committing their lives to God (in a public vow - to turn from sin and follow God through Jesus Christ) and be a part of the bride of Christ (church).  whatever denomination - make your heart steady to not turn away...but to just keep on going up that mountain we call our lifespan.  it's amazing how God looks after you if you ask for help.  He's always there to guide and teach (much like a good piano teacher)...and never criticizes you for mistakes made long ago - but encourages growth.  last week we had a sermon on discipline.  most people think of their parents 'whacking' them for something.  but that isn't really discipline.  i think discipline is just setting your mind to something and doing it.  like a new years resolution.  discipline and courage go together, imo.  we were given a list of useful things to use in our lives now:

1. concentrate on the little things (too)  song of solomon 2:15  zech. 4:10
2. train the body  ecc. 5:1
3. do hardest things first  prov. 22:29
4. learn to be on time  rom 12:11 (didn't look that one up yet)
5. gird up the loins of your mind (loins?) anyway . your mind  I peter 2:13; 2 cor 10:3-5
6. be flexible  rom 8:28
7. accept criticism/correction  prov. 15:32
8. control your tongue  james 3
9. get victory over gluttony  I cor. 9:24-27
10. be patient  gal. 5:22-23
11. welcome work  lam 3:27
12. develop (prayer) patterns  I peter 4:7
13. endure hardness like a soldier, farmer, athlete, don't quit!  II tim. 2:3, 2:6, Icor. 9:24
14. addto your faith:
virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, love/sacrifice.

sorry to post such a long message.  courage, to me, is something we learn over a lifetime.  not to run away from things that seem like danger (unless it would be foolish) and to stand up to a challenge.

[m1469]

Well, first of all, thank you for your response.  Second of all, I am not just looking for inspiration, but I have something I need to do and a deadline on my shoulders.  In other words, this is not about me, but about something I need to do.  So, I am truly just looking for stories at this point because that is what my assignment includes.   I am not looking for any kind of measurement by others on whether or not I am open to the Bible and living a Christian life.  I apologize if I sound short, but, lately, I am.   

Thank you for understanding,
m1469

[pianistimo]

sorry that i couldn't inspire you with peter and paul.  one was sent to the jewish diaspora and the other to the gentile diaspora. 

sometimes you get the idea that paul was a semi-athlete because he always refers to running a race.  the greeks and romans were into olympic stuff and related to it more that bible stories.  so, when paul would preach - he would start out with telling them about all their own gods and then add 'the unknown God' which he knew they had a shrine to.  basically, eliminating things that burden you down make you run faster.  cyclists and runners know this and travel light.  maybe travelling light and going for the gold?  col. 2:18 "let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, and now holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God."  so on the one hand, there is a way to win, and another way of courage leads nowhere.  it seems for a while it is going somewhere, but it dead ends.

[zheer]

OMG, i seriously hope that you guys dont read the bible and practice the WTC by BACH.

[pianistimo]

actually, WTC is like the OT and Beethoven sonatas like the NT.  if you learn them (through dilligence and courage) you can probably play pretty well. 

for me, courage has been not to run away from a performance.  you practice months and months0 and then the day comes - and you just want to put a 'cancelled' sign up because of nerves.  once i played ok - but my leg wouldn't stop shaking up and down.  i kind of needed someone to just get a grip on my leg.

[thalbergmad]

OMG, i seriously hope that you guys dont read the bible and practice the WTC by BACH.

Thalberg used to do that.

[amanfang]

Joshua and Jericho - Joshua Chapter 6

Elijah and the prophets of Baal - I Kings 18:17-40

Another one about courage - Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego and the fiery furnace - Daniel Chapter 3

[m1469]

Thank you kindly   *tips hat*

[ahinton]

I have absolutely no desire to offend anyone here (before or after "pianowelsh" - whose other posts suggest that he/she seems to be well versed in such matters - enters the fray, if indeed he/she does so), but the reference to WTC in this thread prompts me to mention that Mauricio Kagel (of all people) is credited with having declared that, whilst not all musicians believe in God, they all believe in J S Bach...

Best,

Alistair

[m1469]

Well, I will just add to this new theme of the WTC and the Bible (though not really what my initial intent was for this thread - but I think I already have what I need).  I think that whether somebody is religious or not, it is beneficial for a Musician of Western Music to have some knowledge of the Bible for two reasons :

1.  It was a very influencial literature for Bach, and affected his life beliefs, which have either directly affected or indirectly affected his "artistic" (I don't know if he would have considered it "artistic" expression) or personal expression in music.

2.  It has been highly influencial on Western Culture throughout history (and then the "entire" world), which has caused a myriad of life-altering events for societies, communities, and individuals.  Whether a person believes it or not, it's part of the history (not the teachings themselves necessarily, but the affects of those teaching in the beliefs of mankind -- and then the consequences of those beliefs).

So, just like a person would ideally read any other book that has played an influential role in a composer's personal life, or in the overall culture where the art originates,  I think it's also important to read the Bible.


m1469 

[m1469]

What book are the 10 Commandments in ?


Thanks in advance

m1469

[pianistimo]

exodus 20. 

[m1469]

exodus 20. 

Thanks Pianistimo  !

[pianistimo]

that's the shortest answer i've given yet, isn't it m1469.  sorry to be so long winded sometimes.  i tend to take the longest path anywhere.

[m1469]

that's the shortest answer i've given yet, isn't it m1469.  sorry to be so long winded sometimes.  i tend to take the longest path anywhere.

Well, I will admit, it was pretty short .  However, I will also admit that I was feeling extremely grumpy before, so I am also sorry.  Maybe yours is actually the shortest path, but either way, the path is yours to take 

m1469

[pianistimo]

let's get revenge on zheer now that we've settled this.  (about saying what he did about them1469fox method)     i've been thinking about that all day and wishing he could understand how much women go through to get where they are at.  i certainly don't think women pianists/teachers should get less respect than men.  especially when they are doing double duty sometimes. 

*not talking murder, just messing up his piano a bit.  *cookie crumbs, things like that.

[BoliverAllmon]

Esther
Ruth
Gideon
Moses facing Pharoah
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego

those come to mind off the top of my head.

[timothy42b]

exodus 20. 

No they are not.

But you have to understand this is a long standing argument between pp and me <g>!

There are four places in the Bible that have elements of what we commonly think of as the Ten Commandments.  Ex 20 is one of the most familiar ones.  It does not actually have Ten, as you can plainly see if you go to the source and read it.  It has 13 to 19 depending on how you break them up, you have to force them into a structure of ten.

However there is ONE and ONLY ONE place in the Bible that actually uses the term Ten Commandments, and this is Ex 34.  When you go there and read it, you will find these Ten Commandments have little to do with the common ones.  To be specific, these TC deal strictly with the ritualistic relation to God, and contain little about relation to man, so you won't find Shalt not Kill, etc. in there at all.  The 10th commandment is to Never Seethe a Kid in its Mother's Milk! 

[pianistimo]

??  those are statutes.  different than commandments.  there have been and are only 10.  they are repeated by Christ (who died for us - and did away with ritualism) and expanded upon (don't become angry without cause = murder, etc.).  some think it makes life too difficult to live perfectly - but, through Christ everything is possible.

[timothy42b]

??  those are statutes.  different than commandments.  there have been and are only 10.  they are repeated by Christ (who died for us - and did away with ritualism) and expanded upon (don't become angry without cause = murder, etc.).  some think it makes life too difficult to live perfectly - but, through Christ everything is possible.

Read both and see.  You'll admit I'm right.  Congratulating me on my brilliance is optional.  <PS that is supposed to be humor>

But as far as courage goes, can you possibly do better than Job as an example?  This guy went from riches to rags, through no fault of his own, and never wavered in his faith.  There's a whole book about him in the OT. 

Of course you can also read it for the theological disagreement (vs the the opposite theories of Proverbs) and/or the historical (this is Northern Kingdom vs Southern, Judah vs Israel) stuff.  But just on the surface level as a story of perseverance and determination in the face of adversity it is quite powerful. 

[pianistimo]

i stick to my story, but i see the possibility that God may have written more down than we think.  although, if ex. 34 and deu. 10 are any indication - he may have only written down the 10, but spoken to moses for 40 days and nights about what He expected the ISRAELITES to do to stay within His covenant.  after all, He did say TEN commandments...but there are MANY statutes.  they are explainations or judgements of how to carry out the commandments in further detail.  also, He says in deu. 10 that he wrote ont he tablets the same as on the ones that were shattered.  (ex. 20 being the first tablets)

also, in matt. 18:18-22 - Christ says ' "you know the commandments, do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honor your father and mother...'  (going through them from last to first - combining covet/with adultery) - so you can see which commandments he was talking about.  then Jesus told him only one thing he lacked (he didn't say anything about omitting statutes).  he said "sell all that you posess, and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

[BoliverAllmon]

And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. 19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. 20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not. 21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven. 23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold. 24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee. 25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it. 26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.


where is there 13-19 I see only ten.

[Torp]

Text of the Ten Commandments:
There are three versions of the Ten Commandments in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). They are at Exodus 20:2-17, Exodus 34:12-26, and Deuteronomy 5:6-21. Exodus 20 is the most commonly used set. In the King James' Version, its text reads:
Exodus 20:
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Grouping the commandments:
Literally read, the Decalogue includes 19 different commands and prohibitions.  If the text is further divided into component parts, there are a total of 25 instructions. Christians and Jews believe that there are precisely Ten Commandments. This is based on the biblical passages: Exodus 34:28, Deuteronomy 4:13 and Deuteronomy 10:4 which confirm that there are ten. They have grouped them differently in order to add up to 10:

Ancient Judaism, most Protestants & Eastern Orthodox
1st commandment - Exodus 20:3
2nd commandment - Exodus 20:4-6
9th commandment - Exodus 20:16
10th commandment - Exodus 20:17

Current Judaism
1st commandment - Exodus 20:2
2nd commandment - Exodus 20:3-6
9th commandment - Exodus 20:16
10th commandment - Exodus 20:17

Roman Catholics, some Lutherans
1st commandment - Exodus 20:3-6
2nd commandment - Exodus 20:7
9th commandment - Exodus 20:17 (coveting of neighbor’s wife section)
10th commandment - Exodus 20:17 (Rest of Exodus section)

The Protestant/Eastern Orthodox order comes from the 1st century Jewish practice; they regard Exodus 20:2 as a preamble. Historians Philo and Josephus from that era were familiar with this grouping. The Roman Catholic sequence was established by St. Augustine. He based it on the Septuagint, a Greek version of the Hebrew Scriptures that many scholars believe was translated from circa 250 BC.

The Bible makes "frequent reference to "two" tablets...(Exodus 31:18; 32:15; 34:1, 4, 29; Deuteronomy 4:13; 5:22; 9:10, 11, 15, 17; 10:1, 3; 1 Kings 8:9; 2 Chronicles 5:10). According to rabbinic tradition, the purpose for having two tablets was to divide the Ten Commandments under two rubrics. The first tablet, we are told, contained the so-called religious commandments, describing obligations owed to God. The second tablet contained ethical or moral commandments, describing obligations we owe to one another as creatures of God and as fellow human beings."  An alternate interpretation is that the full Ten Commandments was replicated on two duplicate tablets. This would follow the Hittite tradition of making two copies of each treaty: one for the Hittite king and the other for the vassals.

Jef

[pianistimo]

hmmm. interesting.  you know a lot more about this than i realized.  of course, the hittite's didn't know that israel would build a golden calf and moses would break the first tablets.  unless, moses was aware of the hittite custom and thought God might like the idea of writing it down twice.  God is patient!

[timothy42b]

Thanks Torp, excellent summary.

This shows the need to go back to the text, rather than trusting the simplistic treatment most of us got in elementary school age Sunday school classes, by teachers who also had not read the text.

But it also shows that when you do go to the text, you're going to find some confusion.  None of the familiar stories are anywhere near as coherent and straightforward as we've come to believe. 

I still assert that Ex 34 is the only place that actually claims to be the Ten Commandments, though if you read it you won't recognize them.  Nobody else would support this stance because it admittedly has no usefulness!  On the other hand, when's the last time we executed a stranger in town for working on Saturday? 

[cowgirl]

Ex. 20 and Due. 18

cowgirl

[timothy42b]

Ex. 20 and Due. 18

cowgirl

Cowgirl, could you do this for me?

Go to your Bible.  In this case it doesn't seem to matter which translation.  I normally use RSV because I grew up with it, but this isn't one of those cases where there translation is a problem. 

Read Ex 20 and see if it says anywhere that these are the Ten Commandments.  Yes, I know they kinda sorta look like the Ten Commandments, but does the Bible itself say they are?

Now go to Ex 34 and see if the Bible itself says these are the Ten Commandments.  Yes, I know, they don't look much like the ones in the courtroom in Alabama, but does the Bible say they are? 

I think you will find you've had a false assumption all your life.  But I don't think you will change your opinion!  <g>

What bothers me the most is that there aren't really Ten.  Nobody who looked at Ex 20 without a preconceived notion could possibly come up with Ten.  But knowing they had to, various denominations forced the passages into various sets of ten, that don't even agree with each other as Torp showed.  That seems dishonest to me and I find it offensive. 

[pianistimo]

my bible has a heading for chapter 20 entitled 'ten commandments.'  vs. 1 says ' then God delivered all these commandments.'  i think you're talking about the covenant.  the jews kept not only the commandments but the laws beyond that  (circumcision, tithing, agricultural laws, purity laws, laws for the temple priests, etc).  it is a way of life - or governmental structure that isn't in place today.  but why should someone be criticized or strung up for observing the sabbath.  it's one of the ten commandments.  if someone chooses to rest on shabbat they are doing the same thing that Christ did over 2000 years ago.  of course, if someone is pure the entire week and lives a good life - that's also good - and i don't think Christ will turn away any followers since none keeps the commandments perfectly (considering if just getting angry at a brother without cause = murder). 

the commandments and statutes are separate in many verses - deut. 27:9 is one place that mentions both.  '..you shall therefore harken to the voice of the Lord, your God, and keep his commandments and statutes which i enjoin on you today.'  there are also twelve curses: 
'cursed be the man who makes a carved or molten idol...'
'cursed be he who dishonors his father or his mother...'
'cursed be he who moves his neighbor's landmark...'
'cursed be he who violates the rights of the alien, the orphan, or the widow...'
'cursed be he who has relations with his father's wife...'
'cursed be he who has relations with any animal...'
'cursed be he who has relations with his sister or half-sister...'
'cursed be he who has relations with his mother-in-law...'
'cursed be he who slays his neighbor in secret...'
'cursed be he who accepts payment for slaying an innocent person...'
'cursed be he who fails to fulfill any of the provision of the law...'

as i see it, no matter what government we live under - God's is over that.  He knows the human mind and how perverted it can be - so He covered all the bases.  there is nothing that he hasn't taken the time to warn us about.  if he spoke more than the ten commandments - it was to explain any one of them further - but what he wrote down was the same the second time as the first.  exodus 34:11 the Lord said to Moses, 'cut two stone tablets like the former, that I may write on them the commandments which WERE ON THE FORMER tablets that you broke...'