teaching thoughts

[ludwig]

I have a few questions to ask since my piano student numbers are growing, and I just thought its time I started asking questions about what it means to be a music/piano educator for young students.

Is it most important for students to like piano lessons and practising the piano? I know that there are exceptional students who really like practising and loves to come to piano lessons, but realistically, alot of kids aren't like that. So is your first priority to make students want to learn the piano?

Okay so I know students come and go for different reasons, do you get sad when a student leaves due to whatever reason? Do you doubt your teaching abilities when it happens although they might have left due to a non-relevant issue to your teaching or their progress?

Do you believe in discipline? Do you believe in repeated practices just because a student did not do the work at home thus making it seem like a chore to them? What about getting a little fed-up or angry during lessons? Have you made a student cry? Is this okay? Do you think they will hate piano after an encounter like this?

So you have a few students and they all vary in their abilities and attitude towards the piano. Do you have "favourites?" Is this bad? What makes you favour a student over another? This is inevitable? If this is true then do you agree that some teachers "suit" certain types of students and vice versa? Or should there definetely be an equality to teaching? If so, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of education? If students are all treated equally and not according to their personalities and abilities etc...?

Autonomy: what do you think? Is it your job to teach a student how to learn for themselves? How can this be applied to piano teaching? Will they ever have this when they are younger students?

And finally to the issue of respect... I often joke with my kids and lighten up the atmosphere a little with sarcastic humour , and with the older kids, I share interests in pop. music, trends, fashion, activities, culture and basically life. Should this be done at all? I can't help to think this can work both ways. I know they enjoy piano lessons more if at the beginning and at the end I talk to them about everyday things, however this does lower the formality of the piano lesson a bit and cause troubles for respect and serious playing. It is a big issue for me atm because I am only around 19 years older than my youngest kid (who's 4) and 6 years older than my oldest student.


Any personal experiences and thoughts would be great for discussion =)

[henrah]

I am not a teacher, but I can certainly say that general chit-chat and informal talking to ease the atmosphere is good. It will, as you said, make the students enjoy the lessons more. However, you must be strict in how much general non-lesson talking you do, as too much can make some students think they are wasting their time going to your lessons as most of it is spent talking, and not playing/learning. I know this because my old teacher used to talk for nearly the whole of the half-hour lesson. I still can't believe she never noticed how much I didn't like it, and the grimaces I made: she just kept talking and talking. I heard about her childhood and her children atleast 3times over. Can't get it out of my head now...
Henrah

[zheer]

. It is a big issue for me atm because I am only around 19 years older than my youngest kid (who's 4) and 6 years older than my oldest student.

Any personal experiences and thoughts would be great for discussion =)

    Yes you are young Ludwig, but you must also remember that there are people your age that are working as doctors, lawers, accountants, school teachers, piolits etc etc.

     Am going to be brutally honest, a piano teacher shouldnt sell themselves, for exampe a piano teacher should'nt say i playd Rachmaninoff 2nd piano concerto when i was 12 with bla bla bla orchestra, if they have not.
      Teachers are very important, you know the expression , NO SUCH THING AS A BAD STUDENT ONLY A BAD TEACHER. Obviously you not only need to develop as a musician, but you also need to develop as a teacher, and that will take a long time. Good Luck.

[luvslive]

Yes, some conversation is good, you don't want it to be too clinical.  It really breaks up the tension when a kid is able to share how he/she is doing.  And it is nice to have a good laugh every once in a while.  I try to not be too serious.  For example, yesterday an 8 year old girl was having some difficulties in her piece and seem flustered, saying "oy yoy yoy" (spelling?)...of course I'm going to chuckle!

I try not to take it personally if a student quits piano; but I do always wish we could have worked it out.  Or that circumstances could have been different.  I've never made a student cry, though their eyes have glazed over and they get that pained expression when something isn't going right.  I don't think you can always avoid frustration, especially when its their own fault for not practicing.  I'm talking about the repeat offenders.

My favorite students are those who try.  Of course I will look forward to their lessons more than those who do not try or make constant excuses for themselves.  About 90% of my students are my favorites, though.   As far as personality, I like it if the student has one!  I am not good at providing all the personality for both teacher and student.

It sounds like we are pretty much the same age, Ludwig.  I think as we get older these questions will start to answer themselves-and we will get more respect with experience.

[ludwig]

Hi Zheer, I think what I was trying to say with the age gap and how it relates to respect is that some students take it less seriously because of the age gap. I don't really talk about my concerts or piano achievements with my students but do invite them to my recitals so they can gain more musical experience. I guess the question is what does it mean for authority when you're teaching a student not much younger than you? I know some of my students take advantage of this, actually the parents more likely than the student, for example I do think its important if my younger students call me miss however when parents start chatting to me and encourage their kids to also call me by my first name it gets a little wierd. Of  course this is a little thing but there are alot of other similar things... I am also a school teacher therefore also have encountered students who want to be your friend! its actually sweet because during lunch time they all come and see me and chat... =) I think the other professions you've mentioned are different because there's no authority or control/discipline involed unless its an educational occupation.

luvslive, thank you for sharing your experiences. I appreciate them. I also only have a couple of repeat offenders :p and I often get frustrated because they don't try. It doesn't matter what you say to them, how much sense you talk into them, or encouragement you give them, they seem to not care. So therefore my biggest question is still, is it most important to teach a student to like piano practice?? and how do you do this with your "repeat offenders"? I often get frustrated with them and so do not look forward to her/his lesson....

henrach I have similar experiences with my students except its them who constantly talk to me! once again perhaps because I am fairly friendly and the age gap isn't great between me and them. However I'm good at controlling the actual time for talk and refocusing... hehe glad your teacher doesn't tell you her life story now!

[cora]

I never doubt my teaching abilities when a student leaves. I'm one of the best teachers I know. If they can't succeed with me, they can't succeed. Any student can succeed with me if they try.

I've gone five years teaching a student who rarely practices, and in the end, I felt they needed to be encouraged by the reality that teachers want you to practice. So I told the mother they should find another teacher. It was very painful to do this. She overeacted. "What if he never takes any more piano?" I said you just have to point out to the new teacher that you would like to take lessons but don't wish to practice much. Then everybody's goals are clear. He has found another teacher, and I imagine he's doing well.

But most students stick with me for a long time. I set things up right away to be permanent. For instance, they buy a beautiful scribbler for me to assign work from, not a crappy Hilroy scribbler. They have to own a cloth bag for their books. If they are from a far neighborhood, I won't take them, because they won't be able to keep it up. They should own an acoustic piano (getting stricter about this), and they are committed to 40 weeks per year.

[pianistimo]

miss Ludwig?  did i miss something?

ok.  i confess, i tend to gender sterotype according to name.  you really fooled me. 

people that have advanced degrees or do a lot of performing (as it sounds that you do) tend to be on the more serious side - and therefore, as you say - probably gain more of that 'authority' respect.  if this is what you want - bite your tongue (like i have to do when i try this).  unfortunately, for some of us - we can't resist the urge to joke as often - and i don't think it really matters in the long run.  if the student enjoys their lessons (or even find s the first year difficult - but progresses and soon enjoys them) that's all that really matters.  if you get them excited about piano, about performing, and what they can do with their skill - then they start being more self-motivated which is what teaching is all about.  to start doing more for themselves. 

mostly, i've had younger students (but a few older and a few adults).  what i see is that the adults sometimes want to pick their own music - and you have a harder time following your 'plan.'  the younger ones don't argue but might practice less on days they have more homework or aren't motivated.  to really see where your teaching is leading - you kind of need a couple of years under your belt and many many years to get very quick results.  going to a few seminars in the summer can't hurt.  mtna has some good ones and also local colleges have different topics (some about pedagogy) to take.  i'll confess a few years back i took a 'tutoring' class over the pedagogy because i was teaching reading as well as piano.  it was interesting to just get some ideas about how to tutor (vs. teach).  in tutoring the plan is to speedily get the student on their own and knowing how to approach a situation.  sort of a writing of a plan (as with lesson plans) but sometimes more or less detailed according to the student.  and, promises as to what will be accomplished each week.  my minimum is the same amount of practice (at least) as the lesson time per day.

[ludwig]

Cora: You say this "any student can succeed with me if they try". I was curious as to what you thought about "there are no bad students, only bad teachers" like zheer mentioned. I'm very puzzled by this actually, I know that of course it takes compromise and team work to achieve goals in piano learning from both teachers and students, but then I doubt whether I'm being a "good teacher" when students cannot accomplish something because they don't try. I'm often worn out by the end of a lesson if the student does not try at home, even if its the first lesson of the day, but as soon as they go home I know my hard work is undone. I have let 2 students go in the past 2 years because I think they weren't doing well with me musically. We all got on very well but unfortunately I felt it was best...

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that a lot of people put all work on the teacher, especially their job as teacher to encourage kids to work hard and practice, like it was their responsibility to make students practice by motivating them. This simply does not work for all students. My point is there are good students and, well not-so good students, I still put in my part and teach them with as much patience as I can endure, however it is up to them to get anywhere with it.

pianistimo: thanks for sharing your thoughts =) yes I do think that the point of tutoring is to get the student thinking on their own, sort of like autonomous learning, so that they can deal with situations independently. I suppose piano lessons and teaching is more like tutoring in that respect, you cannot be with the student everytime they practice so they do it effectively, so you teach them different ways of practice, and not the piece it self so much. In the end they will independently learn pieces and techniques and all you're doing is sharing your musical experiences and guiding them through the learning process.

Its funny you know because I am actually a graduate of music/education, however my lecturers compromised my program a little at university, and they decided that for my assessments, I will do a major in performance as well as education. I actually find musicians quite snobby because they look down at at the music education students simply because they are not performance majors. However, I loved my classes in pedagogy and education psych because its more practical and more involved, such as when the lecturers share their thoughts on their philosophy of teaching, their experiences, and also management skills. I was actually encouraged to drop education and just do a performance major by a couple of the lecturers, but honestly, some of the classes I went to are such a waste of time! I can learn all that stuff from books and resources, honestly!!! And I paid all that money for nothing...I perfer my music ed anytime!
My students are doing well, we move at a steady but swift speed, they improve consistently. However there are a few that just puts me down because I cannot do anything more to help them improve. I've been teaching for 7 years and need lots more practice and experience! how many years have you guys been teaching? interesting to know

oh and yeah, Ludwig as in Beethoven because I not only love his music, but also feel that as an innovator, he brought much to the musical world! =) No my name is not Ludwig, in fact I don't know anyone actually called Ludwig.

[cjp_piano]

You have so many questions!  But this is good.  The fact that you are asking these questions proves you're doing fine =)

Is it most important for students to like piano lessons and practising the piano? I know that there are exceptional students who really like practising and loves to come to piano lessons, but realistically, alot of kids aren't like that. So is your first priority to make students want to learn the piano?

This is frustrating when a student doesn't like piano!  When I know they don't like it, I talk with the parents.  If they insist that their child takes lessons, and I agree to continue teaching them, then I just have to do it and hope that my love for music rubs off on them!

Okay so I know students come and go for different reasons, do you get sad when a student leaves due to whatever reason? Do you doubt your teaching abilities when it happens although they might have left due to a non-relevant issue to your teaching or their progress?

Sure, you will get sad when you have a bond with a student that leaves, but that's just life!  They leave for all kinds of reasons, lots of times they won't even tell you the real reason, so don't let it get to you.  Everyone is different and certain people just clash with other kinds of people, that's why we aren't as close to some of our friends as others, that's just human nature.  Don't take it personal, even if they tell you it's because you are a horrible teacher!

Have you made a student cry? Is this okay? Do you think they will hate piano after an encounter like this?

I have made a student cry.  One of my 5-year-old students just starting crying one day probably because of my tone of voice or something, or maybe nothing to do with me.  It was so bad, her mother came rushing in and took her away!  But later the mother told me that she's just sensitive and moody, no big deal.  I told the girl the next week that I didn't mean to make her cry, and she said it was ok.  She actually likes piano lessons more now then she did before 

And finally to the issue of respect... I often joke with my kids and lighten up the atmosphere a little with sarcastic humour , and with the older kids, I share interests in pop. music, trends, fashion, activities, culture and basically life. Should this be done at all? I can't help to think this can work both ways. I know they enjoy piano lessons more if at the beginning and at the end I talk to them about everyday things, however this does lower the formality of the piano lesson a bit and cause troubles for respect and serious playing. It is a big issue for me atm because I am only around 19 years older than my youngest kid (who's 4) and 6 years older than my oldest student.

Every student is different, some of them NEED you to joke with them and make them feel like you're their friend.  Others need you to get right down to business and help them play piano.  I wouldn't say that you should be a certain degree serious and a certain degree fun.  You should be whatever you are, what ever your teaching style is, but at the same time be sensitive to each student.  You will be able to tell when some students can't take a certain level of intensity and you should just stop and ask them about their favorite thing at school that day. 

As far as respect, when they decide to study with you, they've already said you are worthy to teach them, so there is no issue with your age.  You're worried about a student who is only 6 years younger than you??  I'm 26 and have students all the way into their 40s, 50s, and 60s.  My 65-year-old student has 4 college degrees and is an engineer who also is a photographer and speaks 3 languages.  But he came to me for piano lessons, so I'm his teacher and he respects me.

You are right about people thinking it is up to the teacher to motivate them, make them practice, make them good, AND make them like it.  Some students like it but aren't motivated.  Some practice but don't like it.  Everyone is different.  For a student that likes piano lessons but doesn't practice, I don't give them a lesson if they come to their lesson and haven't practiced.  I simply refuse to teach them that day, which might seem harsh, but it works.  This doesn't work for a student who doesn't like piano lessons of course.  But usually those that don't like it, I usually find out before they start lessons, or soon after, and I don't teach them.  I simply don't want to waste my time and the parents money on something that the child is not interested in.

I'm glad you brought up some of these things.  It's nice to know other teachers that have similar experiences.  Good Luck!

[pianistimo]

some of you have taught many more years and with many more students than i have.  i think at the most i had 13 students and also tutored reading (combined the two) so total would be 15-16.  now, getting back into it, i had 2 students before my broken leg.  i've taught on and off for about 25 years.  i'm counting starting at where i left off from college (bachelor's in piano performance).  i don't regret getting the performance major - but taking a few pedagogy classes wouldn't hurt me either.

they now offer adult continuing education classes at west chester uni.  it used to be you had to be a major in each field to take the classes (i think).  anyway - now you can take them during the year or during the summer programs.  they have excellent teachers and i believe an mtna group meets at west chester every month.  mtna just got a bit expensive for me after a while.  i was secretary of the group that met in pasadena for a year or so - and it was fun to meet all the people and go to the seminars.  but, as time went on and i had more children of my own i didn't have time to do everything.  to be a total member - to pay all the dues and go to the meetings (very fun though!) and still teach - do my own paperwork (lessons and otherwise), take care of my kids and be 'balanced?' (if i ever was).

you have to have some time for yourself or you go crazy.  i needed to be able to at least practice once in a while without shaking from nerves (which happens when you try to do everything you did before when you have a baby).  i learned with each successive child to drop something and just focus on myself and the baby for a while.  so i eventually dropped lessons too until my middle daughter was around 4 or 5.  ( i think after she learned to read).  you don't want to be like the tailor or seamstress who's wife or husband goes around with holes in their clothing - so this time i made sure my daughter already knew how to read before going into school.  she was a fluent reader in first grade.  anyway - unfortunately, i didn't seem to have the energy and time to give my kids the piano lessons i gave others.  i should have insisted they play - but they'd sort of give excuses and i was using the piano a lot myself (with lessons and practice).  if you really want to teach your own - you almost need two pianos in two separate rooms like computers.

sorry to go on, but i am very interested in teaching ideas, too.  there used to be (maybe still is) a very good teaching magazine called 'etude.'  i used to get it as a teenager.  is it still around?  nowdays, there are probably many piano teaching magazines.  i'd be interested to hear what is out there.  for people like me, who don't have as much time - but like to read articles here and there about what other teachers find useful in teaching methods. 

if you have trouble finding good students occasionally - try homeschoolers!  their parents make them practice a lot!  probably for the reason of getting them out of their hair for an hour.  and, they are super sweet.  adults are kind of fun, too, though some you have to work just as hard at keeping them on task.  my most fun lessons have been after the first six months to year - when you see that they are utilizing what you've taught them and can repeat it and teach a sibiling or other student.  sometimes with very good students - the idea of being a teacher themselves someday makes them open up their ears more to what you are saying.  i tell them 'if you want to have a summer job that is way more than minimum wage - keep up with your lessons and you'll have your own job teaching, too, very soon.'

as with reading, i follow a sort of 'rigid' pattern of learning the first couple years - and then gradually relax it.  with reading, you break up sessions into manageable sections - the same with lessons (warm-up exercises - if you like them as a teacher/ scales and chords / repertoire - both sight reading and performance / fun music)  '

i think the fun music is an attention grabber. you can even take contemporary pieces that they like and transcribe (although i've been somewhat limited in time).  seems like anything you do to try to 'connect' with a student really makes a difference.  it is only being aloof and mean that cuts teachers ties with students.  i don't think anyone here is that way.  music isn't like schoolwork, really.  it's more like relaxation after awhile and fun and a way to connect with friends, jobs, and gain a sense of organization in your life (and dexterity). 

to me, a master teacher is like an olympic coach or a sports coach.  i heard on the radio that a famous coach who was retiring said that he made his students realize what they 'could' do instead of worrying about what is possible.  he never limited them in any way and they often exceeded their own expectations.  many were surprised what they actually could do.  i'm not at the advanced level of teaching yet - but, as i see it, you start realizing the other elements of teaching that aren't often talked about (motivation, self-starting, discipline, control and relaxation, parental involvement or disinvolvement, sacrifice /am realizing this is a BIG one for advanced students, a developed ear, listening abilities, theory lessons, being able to answer basic to intermediate/advanced musical questions, poise, professional stage presence, conquoring fear)  many of the same things that people look for in a job interview.  piano lessons are almost like a charm school in the sense that if you are developing the highest quality of a performer - you try not to leave anything out.  this is the next level that i am aiming at as a teacher.  i would like to teach at a community college level someday.  i am half-way through a graduate degree in piano performance. 

 
 

[cora]

The important thing to remember is that you are responsible for effort, not results. If you do your absolute best and have tons of experience and knowledge, and the student does not succeed, you can conclude that your student is the problem.

Whether you choose to continue teaching that student is a personal decision. I tend not to upset the apple cart. If they want to pay megabucks for the enjoyment of being near me, that's their choice. If I drop them, I may end up with a similar student anyways, since each teacher gets a random sampling of students anyways, unless you're willing to audition and weed out the bad ones at the start. But I think there are only so many brilliant students to go around anyways. In ten years of teaching, I've only had one stellar student, and about five excellent students. I'm in the business of teaching piano. School teachers don't choose their students, and yet they are charged to teach them all. So why can't I use the lame ones to teach me more about myself and how to motivate students?

[ludwig]

thank you guys for the replies =)

cora - I'm not sure about the idea that the teacher is only responsible for effort and not result, especially in the eye of the parent, I know my parents wanted results and also effort  from both me and my piano teacher when I'm learning. A good teacher should be responsible for both neh? This reality is not so great for the teacher because a parent always feel the need to know that they have taught their kid to do their best and the rest is up to the standard or the professionalism of a teacher...

pianistimo - I have also had adult students in the past but they are a bit unpredictable, both in the practising respect and them showing up for lessons, as well as their wants and needs, whereas I suppose a kid shows up to lesson once a week without fail because they feel that that it is routine, and they "ought" to be doing practice for the week's tasks and goals (hopefully). I feel that routine within the lesson also makes it a bit formal and a great way for kids to feel they need planning (including setting goals) for themselves. Of course it doesn't mean you can't have the occasional fun activity like rhythm games and duets.... But I like order in my lessons and constantly thinking throughout the lesson on how I'm going to manage the time/things to do as it progresses, according to the student's needs and their progress for that week.

btw, I feel that you have accomplished alot raising a family, teaching, and practising for your own enjoyment and degrees. How do you find the time? I know that they are older now but still, dinner on the table, clean clothes and hygiene, school etc etc...?

where I live we don't really have homeschooling and the arts are not so much supported (yes we are a "sports country")... I'm actually going overseas in 1.5 years (hopefully) to pursue my own performance studies. I do get a whole variety of students and they all have different personalities and needs. Therefore I'm reluctant to reject any students wanting lessons because I do want to encourage the arts and music in their lives and their community as well, and this will result in funding and support for music generally. However,  I do check for potential and interest and then truthfully tell the parents what I feel about their initial progress and my predictions and assumptions on what they need  in the trial period, before they are "regular" students.

I also fully agree that music is an interdisciplinery subject, and it should not only be an rounded education in itself, but linked with other potentials and interests. I'm curious to know what teachers on the board teach besides technique, reading, and expression (in piano learning only), and then what do you teach on the side? (theory, aural skills, sight-reading, music history, intepretation, performance practices, conducting, music therapy and philosophy etc...)


cjp_piano: thanks for you views, I feel much better and fitted because I think music teachers should communicate more and talk about relevant issues, ( it is also a great relief to get something off your chest). I guess I should just look more on the bright side, such as all the good results and fast progress and the enjoyment of music in my students, and not worry too much about the negative things which happen much less than the good (but they seem bigger at the time and can cause more emotional upset)...Still it doesn't hurt to gather experience from the negatives and the hiccups and talk about them to resolve or prevent.


Rightio, last thing I wanted to ask, what, in your own opinion, ( and there aren't any wrongs or rights in this), should a piano lesson be about? Practice? Exploring new territory? Passing on knowledge? Having fun? and if you don't mind, rank your ideas in the order of importance. That way I feel I can slowly find my philosophy of teaching or "tutoring" piano...Thankyou =)

[lostinidlewonder]

Is it most important for students to like piano lessons and practising the piano? I know that there are exceptional students who really like practising and loves to come to piano lessons, but realistically, alot of kids aren't like that. So is your first priority to make students want to learn the piano?

I refuse to teach students who don't work at their music. I make it very clear to the parents and the student before we even start the first lesson that I WILL NOT repeat lessons. I may restate things in a different way to enhance clarity if something is missed but I will not dedicate the lesson to study the same passages as we did the week before (unless it is incredibly tough for the student), it wastes my time and the students money.

If I can judge that the difficulty exists because there was minimal time put into the practice I won't make our lesson into a practice session instead I'll waste time working out a timetable to work on this piece for next week and highlight what factors need to be worked on again. This usually annoys the student but it is better than saying to the student, that ok you didn't practice, lets do it now together. You reward the fact that the student hasn't practiced by taking their hands and walking them through what they should have done step by step. It takes away their ability to work on music BY THEMSELVES. There has to be a level of seriousness on the student behalf despite their age. They have to feel like it is a responsibility to show teacher something new every week, something they have worked out.

At the end of the lessons I give the student a direction to take, I answer all their worries and problems during the lesson, then it is up to them to attain the mastery with repeated practice keeping what we did in the previous lesson in mind. If the following week they come to me with problems by saying "Oh I can't play this bar." They must say I can't play this bar because (and give me a reason) If there is no Because there was no practice and there is no personal understanding of difficulties (which is a key factor to develop your own piano skills).

I am not here to tell the student what they can't do (that is up to them to discover), I am also not here to do the repetivie practice with them, a student should come to me, tell me their problems, I am there to solve it with them.

For a student to say I didn't practice is a HUGE problem but I cannot solve it because I do not live with the students and observe their practice habits every day. A lot of student's problems are lack of repetitive practice, we can go a step back and see that it is TIME that people cannot control. So often it isn't that the student doesn't want to practice but they are disorganised with their efforts to make TIME to do it. If time is the issue then I'll sit down and strike up a study schedule with the student, an unbreakable timetable for study at home.

Okay so I know students come and go for different reasons, do you get sad when a student leaves due to whatever reason? Do you doubt your teaching abilities when it happens although they might have left due to a non-relevant issue to your teaching or their progress?

I do not even pat myself on the shoulder and say, Hey great work, these students want to work with you, you must be a great teacher. So why would I say the opposite if they leave? Nothing is personal, it is a work relationship you strike up initally with your student, if a friendship develops out of it then the friendship still exists when you no longer teach the student. I have many students I no longer teach who still contact me and we come together for food/drinks and chit chat. I also have a few students who RING ME and say, no more lessons please. These type of students to me are rude and not worth my time anyway. I do get annoyed and angry with these students, but only for a short time, humans aren't perfect afterall. But I think after teaching a student for a few years, to get a phone call to quit lessons is extremely rude.

Do you believe in discipline? Do you believe in repeated practices just because a student did not do the work at home thus making it seem like a chore to them? What about getting a little fed-up or angry during lessons? Have you made a student cry? Is this okay? Do you think they will hate piano after an encounter like this?

I won't disipline the student any more but by making them listen to my disapproval of not practicing. Writing out a timetable contract which they sign for me agreeing that they will do it this time round(of course it isn't legal but it is very symbollic of a promise). I don't make them think I'm an ogre with such seriousness, they all know I am a big joke, but I also take teaching music as a serious job, just as if it where a doctor diagnosing their patient. I never let the student feel scared or uncomfortable, I can tell when student haven't done their work because they get nervous before I ask them to play, I won't jump on top of them and say YOU DIDN"T PRACTICE!!!!!!!!!! I will question them, what is difficult about this part. I like to watch them squirm when they don't know because they didn't practice

If I sense they are getting annoyed or angry I will joke around with their difficulties. I will imitate the way they play, but do it way over the top so they can see how they do it isn't as bad as they think. If the student didn't work at home like I said before I would NOT submit and teach them what they should have done during the week. If they did work but could not master what was left for them then I will go back and work on it with them, simply because they will have questions for their difficulties which they experienced in private and now will experience with the teachers guidance. They will think, Oh I tried it this way, but teacher shows me it this way now, this is extremely important for learning and cannot be done if the student hasn't put in any effort by themselves.

So you have a few students and they all vary in their abilities and attitude towards the piano. Do you have "favourites?" Is this bad? What makes you favour a student over another? This is inevitable? If this is true then do you agree that some teachers "suit" certain types of students and vice versa? Or should there definetely be an equality to teaching? If so, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of education? If students are all treated equally and not according to their personalities and abilities etc...?

I love teaching students who love learning and are excited about music. There are a number of students I have at all different levels like this. They make you feel energetic at the end of the lesson because you can feel their motivation to learn. Opposite are those who make excuses about not enough time, or blah blah blah was why I cannot play this chord properly. Or who don't listen to what you say, start with the 2nd and they continually start with the 1st... urrrrg! I find most testing to teaching pure beginners because there is so much simple things to go through with them, and when they have troubles with simple things you have to really bite your tongue and not get frustrated. It may be the simplest thing to the teacher but a big difficulty for the beginner.

There is no ONE WAY to treat your students. That would be like being a robot. I treat all my students as individuals each one differently. I always talk about their own interests too so this controls a lot of what I have to say to them and how we relate to one another.

Autonomy: what do you think? Is it your job to teach a student how to learn for themselves? How can this be applied to piano teaching? Will they ever have this when they are younger students?

The student must teach themselves, that is what the practice at home is. If they don't do this then they never progress. Young students I always tell them, I am not here to teach you piano, I am here to make sure you don't teach yourself wrongly. They ask what I mean by this and I say, your lessons with me is only an hour a week, this is not no way near enough to learn music, you must go home, practice yourself, find out what you think is hard and what you can and can't do, then report back to me next week with your findings. This is the best way to use your music teacher so USE ME!

And finally to the issue of respect... I often joke with my kids and lighten up the atmosphere a little with sarcastic humour , and with the older kids, I share interests in pop. music, trends, fashion, activities, culture and basically life. Should this be done at all? I can't help to think this can work both ways. I know they enjoy piano lessons more if at the beginning and at the end I talk to them about everyday things, however this does lower the formality of the piano lesson a bit and cause troubles for respect and serious playing. It is a big issue for me atm because I am only around 19 years older than my youngest kid (who's 4) and 6 years older than my oldest student.

ESSENTIAL! I hate teachers who don't do this, where is the life in them! Don't be stupid and do it through the whole lesson, there is a time to chit chat and a time to focus. I am friendly with all my students but some younger ones feel like they can control the lesson because of my friendliness by talking about things off topic in the middle of work etc. I don't let them in if they do this. With a smile I'll push forward with the lesson saying "Tell me at the end". One little girl I teach is very stubborn and wants to tell me things during a lesson, I have had to pretend to read something important and just ignore her. She thinks it is a big joke, but when she stops talking I remind her that I am here to teach music not play around. Or I might look out the window while she blabs and when she finishs pretend to be startled, Oh you finished talking? I am not rude or angry in the way I do this, but I make sure they know what I am here for. Kids are so fun sometimes

[cjp_piano]

You reward the fact that the student hasn't practiced by taking their hands and walking them through what they should have done step by step. It takes away their ability to work on music BY THEMSELVES.

Do you EVER walk them through it?  I mean, don't you have to teach them how to practice?  I feel like I have to walk them through practicing and have a practice session together so they know how to practice.  Or is that only when they're beginners?

[lostinidlewonder]

Do you EVER walk them through it?  I mean, don't you have to teach them how to practice?  I feel like I have to walk them through practicing and have a practice session together so they know how to practice.  Or is that only when they're beginners?

When you first explore passages in a piece with the student of course you offer them ways which might help to memorise or play the passage more easily. I think this is good for all levels of piano playing. But to repeat the same lesson would be a waste of time. It would of course be a good idea to point out what in the passage the student should focus their attention, but you shouldn't devote too much lesson time practicing it, that is the students responsibility at home armed with knowledge as to how they must attain it.

It is not left up to chance, you know that your student can practice correctly alone. If it means you take their hands and show them exactly what they have to change, if that helps them, if that alters how they are going to practice, then we have taught something for the better.

A student should realise that every week something new must be learnt, that they must push on in their pieces. We learn more bars even though we haven't completely mastered previous ones. But we should only do this if we know how to practice the parts which we haven't mastered yet. The teacher must carefully calibrate a comfortable rate so that the student contintually learns new material every lesson but at the same time doesn't get left with a huge amount of unmastered music in the end.

[nervous_wreck]

  Have you made a student cry? Is this okay? Do you think they will hate piano after an encounter like this?

yes.
yes.
yes.
but it's not your job to baby them... you tell them their work, they do n't do it, then they're at fault...
i tend to be very harsh though, i was taught by all russian teachers and they never showed much sympathy to me.
just teach the way you teach, and let the parent decide whether or not it is right.

[pianistimo]

in my experience, students who cry are usually the perfectionistic kind.  i only had one student who cried over not getting something down right away (and her mother was in the kitchen nearby and i think she got in trouble if she hadn't practiced enough).  immediately i consoled her by just continuing to talk about the passage and reassure her that not everyone can play things immediately and that certain passages take time.  then as she was crying less, i told her how i didn't like piano at first and that it was an effort to practice.  that i had to take little bits at a time just like her and not feel badly if i couldn't play them perfectly (even if i had the day before).  she told me that she had played it well the day before, too.  and so -gradually, we got back to the lesson (but i didn't make her replay that piece).  sometimes going on to something new and coming back is a good distraction.  and, motivation if they are getting 'stuck' and need a little diversion.  other times you break down the work into techniques of practice.

also, sometimes in teaching (hopefully less and less as you progress as a teacher) you accidentally give some work that is not as appropriate level-wise as another piece.  if you sense trouble, just tell them 'we'll return to this piece after we play some other pieces that are better suited for you at this time.'  there's no shame in picking up a difficult piece later.  just exposure to a lot of music and sightreading is good for students anyway.  quitting isn't something i tend to like - so this would be an exception rather than the rule and initiated by the teacher after recognition of steps that might have been overlooked to get to this particular piece.

in terms of 'how do you manage homelife and piano lessons?'  you don't.  i just juggle.  right now i'm not teaching.  between recovery from the leg and other things going on - (organizing again) so i'm not always teaching as some do on this forum.  need to call several of my students and pick them up again in the summer.  compared to many - i'm a hobbyist at teaching.  but, i've learned many things from my own children.  watching what interests them.  funny you mention hygene because the four year old is easy to bathe and wash - and now my oldest has gone through and out the other end of that period of puberty where every shirt has to be washed immediately - but, they wait for you to do it.  i'd call it the 'greasy' age.  if it's not soiled from dirt, it's sweat.  he's matured physically - so you'd think he'd do his own laundry.  teenagers are almost as dependent on their parents as preschoolers at times - and then very responsible at others.  they sort of waver back and forth.  also, they want all the perks and rewards and sometimes don't put forth the effort. 

i've learned you can't say 'go do the laundry'  or 'go wash the dishes.'  you have to print out a checklist of the order of things.  #1 sort the clothes (otherwise they'd be all mixed together with him).  etc.  #2 spot the stains - add appropriate soap and correct amount (detail what to use for what)  #3 check the load size and correspond with knob  #4 check water temperature  #5 use the cycle that fits the type of clothing #6 clean the lint thingy  #7 dry  #8 fold #9 put away

to me that's a complete job.  if i said 'go do the laundry' - he'd just bring his laundry down and plop it in the laundry room.  that's doing laundry to him!  if i say - bring me the checklist and we'll see how many items you checked off then i actually get some work done.  so funny and yet so serious for me.  you can't get into middle age and have the enormous amount of energy to 'do everything' that you once did when they were in preschool.  plus, who wants to be married to someone who thinks that their wife/husband is supposed to do everything while they sit back and do nothing.

 

[bernhard]

from Ludwig:

Is it most important for students to like piano lessons and practising the piano? I know that there are exceptional students who really like practising and loves to come to piano lessons, but realistically, alot of kids aren't like that. So is your first priority to make students want to learn the piano?

Of course it is very important that students like piano lessons and like practicing. Otherwise they will be forcing themselves to do something that they do not like, and yet something without which they will not be able to play. No one in this universe can persist in doing something they don´t like for long.

Now, can you make someone like something? Is there a recipe for that? You can certainly kill someone´s love for an activity by the way you present that activity to them. But is the reverse true? Perhaps if a student is indifferent (yet curious) to start with, you may have a chance of making them like the activity (or conversely hate it). This is the majority of students. A tiny minority already loves it and there is nothing you can do to destroy that love. Another tiny minority already hates it, and there will be nothing you can do to change that.

from Ludwig:

Okay so I know students come and go for different reasons, do you get sad when a student leaves due to whatever reason? Do you doubt your teaching abilities when it happens although they might have left due to a non-relevant issue to your teaching or their progress?

Students should leave. Part of the job of the teacher is to make a student independent, however paradoxical that may be. A teacher is a ladder, which is only useful to get the student to the next level. Once the student is safely there, the ladder is expendable. But that only applies to that particular student. The ladder is still useful for other students. Which is another reason students should leave, the sooner the better: To make space for new students.

form Ludwig:

Do you believe in discipline?

Can you achieve anything without it? Yet, there is difference between the discipline of the army where you must blindly follow orders, and the discipline of an orchestra where everyone agrees to curtail their personal freedom of amking whatever noise they please and submit to the will of the conductor in order to  - together – make beautiful music.

I like to define discipline as “doing something you don´t like in order to do something you love”. You may not like practicing, but if you love playing the piano, you will submit to it. Usually discipline problems turn up when the relationship between the means and the result is not clear. The student may not realize that the reason he cannot play the piano is because he has not practiced. As a teacher it is your job to make your student realize these connections (which, specially in little children is far from clear). How do you do that may provide the subject for many years worth of conversation.

Do you believe in repeated practices just because a student did not do the work at home thus making it seem like a chore to them? What about getting a little fed-up or angry during lessons? Have you made a student cry? Is this okay? Do you think they will hate piano after an encounter like this?

Because of the way I teach, this never happens.

Look here for more details:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2260.msg19270.html#msg19270
(Dear Bernhard thread – Pieces leading up to the revolutionary)

from Ludwig:
So you have a few students and they all vary in their abilities and attitude towards the piano. Do you have "favourites?" Is this bad? What makes you favour a student over another? This is inevitable? If this is true then do you agree that some teachers "suit" certain types of students and vice versa? Or should there definetely be an equality to teaching? If so, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of education? If students are all treated equally and not according to their personalities and abilities etc...?

Piano teaching is (still) not totally institutionalized and part of the corporate system. And this is good. Piano teaching belongs to a very different and old tradition – a tradition that is danger of disappearing altogether: that of the master-apprentice relationship. This is a one-to-one teaching situation and its big, maybe only advantage and saving grace is that the teaching is tailored to fit the student. If you want equality in teaching join a school or an internet course. It has huge monetary advantages for the course creators and none whatsoever for the student.

Do teachers have favourites? Of course. Even mothers have their favourite children. Nothing wrong with that. The only wrong that can come out of that (and this applies to mothers and children as well) is to let the students know of your favoritism. Enjoy your favourite student, but never, I repeat never, let him/her, or the other students suspect of it either by your words or actions. Have as many favourites as you like, but treat them all the same.

from Ludwig:

Autonomy: what do you think? Is it your job to teach a student how to learn for themselves? How can this be applied to piano teaching? Will they ever have this when they are younger students?

That is in fact your only job. You are not there to teach them to play the piano. You are there to teach them how to learn to play the piano. And yes, you can teach them this sort of thing even if they are very young.

And finally to the issue of respect... I often joke with my kids and lighten up the atmosphere a little with sarcastic humour , and with the older kids, I share interests in pop. music, trends, fashion, activities, culture and basically life. Should this be done at all? I can't help to think this can work both ways. I know they enjoy piano lessons more if at the beginning and at the end I talk to them about everyday things, however this does lower the formality of the piano lesson a bit and cause troubles for respect and serious playing. It is a big issue for me atm because I am only around 19 years older than my youngest kid (who's 4) and 6 years older than my oldest student.

You must not confuse respect with solemnity. Remember also that you may be respected out of fear, or out of admiration.

Having said that, no one will learn anything from someone they do not respect in that field of learning. So a student should always look for a teacher they admire; a teacher that they wish to emulate; a teacher they will gladly follow because they trust s/he will get them there.

This means that it is always a good idea to make the first three moths of lessons a probation period where this respect can be allowed to developed and be evaluated. If it is not there after three months, it is better to let the student go. Just think about people you believe are real jerks. Would you like to take lessons from them? At the same time one person´s jerk may well be another´s hero. As the teacher the power of student selection rests squarely in your hands. Exert it!

You may find these threads helpful/interesting:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2047.msg16848.html#msg16848
(what to do with children crying)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2077.msg17179.html#msg17179
(How to become a teacher)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2246.msg19041.html#msg19041
(Young teachers – why young/bad teachers are not a problem – When the student is ready the right teacher will appear)
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2032.msg19339.html#msg19339
(How to become a piano teacher – good advice from minsmusic – the pitfalls as well as the requirements)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2273.msg19432.html#msg19432
(what to do when a student has not practised)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2450.msg21250.html#msg21250
(the four levels of teaching: Toddler, beginner, intermediate and advanced)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5569.msg53917.html#msg53917
(when are you ready to be without a teacher – roles of the teacher)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

from zheer:
Teachers are very important, you know the expression , NO SUCH THING AS A BAD STUDENT ONLY A BAD TEACHER.

Yes, once upon a time I read somewhere that Daniel Baremboin had stated this very same thought:

“There are no bad students, only bad teachers.”

My initial reaction was  : That is rich of him! He probably has a severe scanning procedure and carefully selects whom he teaches. So of course he ends up with all the good students. I truly would like to see him cope with some of my lot!

But then on reflection, he was right. You see, he is not putting forward a scientific statement. He is suggesting a teaching philosophy. As such it is a very good philosophy. Every teacher should approach students with this philosophy: There are no bad students, only bad teachers.

This philosophy, although excellent for teachers, would be disastrous for students. Students need a completely different philosophy (let us call it Bernhard’s corollary, shall we?) Here is a good philosophy for students: “There are no bad teachers, only bad students”.

Now this new philosophy although excellent for students would be equally disastrous for teachers. Both philosophies will generate attitude, and attitude is the single most important factor in learning (or teaching) anything.

Imagine the results of a meeting between a teacher and student that have the appropriate philosophies. And now imagine the consequences of a meeting in which the philosophies have been reversed.

A teacher must always look for the reasons of teaching failure in him/herself. But by the same token the student must likewise look within him/herself for the reasons of the very same failure. Then all get the opportunity to learn and improve for the next teaching situation.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

from Cora:

The important thing to remember is that you are responsible for effort, not results. If you do your absolute best and have tons of experience and knowledge, and the student does not succeed, you can conclude that your student is the problem.

I guess anyone can embrace whatever philosophy they wish. However this particular one will necessarily have an interesting consequence.

But allow me to digress for a moment, and put forward a somehow parallel philosophy.

Exquisite teachers and communicators consistently follow this pattern:

1.   They know what they want to teach/communicate.
2.   They understand that the meaning of their communication is the result they get.
3.   They have enough sensitivity to realise when they are getting what they want.
4.   If they are not getting what they want, they immediately change their behaviour and keep changing it until they get the desired outcome.
5.   In time, experience builds up, and they usualy have a large repertory of behaviours that they can employ to achieve outcomes.

By putting your attention on your own efforts, rather than on results you are setting yourself for random success in regards to results even though you may be achieving consistency of effort.

So I would like now to put forward exactly the converse philosophy. Concentrate on the results, and do your best to achieve such results with the minimum effort on your part

You may feel that you are doing nothing, but everyone around will be pleased.

Which reminds me of a perhaps relevant story.

There was this huge building in town. One day there was a deafening noise coming from downstairs and the whole building seemed to shake. The janitor quickly went to the underground of the building where all the pipes were, and what he saw was not good. The whole complex of piping was shaking and seemed to be ready to explode. He phoned an emergency plumber and a few minutes later an old man arrived. He looked at the pipes for a few seconds, got a small hammer from his tool box and lightly tapped a red valve. Immediately the whole thing went silent. “Fixed” he said to the janitor. “I will send you my bill later”. And he went away.

A couple of days later, the janitor got a bill for 2000 dollars. He took it to the building´s admiistration, and the manager was livid. He phone the plumber:

“This is outrageous! You spend just a couple of minutes in the basement and the janitor said that all you did was tap a valve with your hammer! You cannont possibly be serious that this is worth 2000 dollars!”

The plumber said “OK, I will send you another bill”

Two days later the new bill arrived. It said:

Tapping a valve with small hammer - $ 1.50
Knowing where to tap - $ 1998.50


 


Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[martha argerrrrrich]

I guess anyone can embrace whatever philosophy they wish.

How Ironic Bernhard! Doesnt that apply to you....mmm...

[mike_lang]

I guess anyone can embrace whatever philosophy they wish. However this particular one will necessarily have an interesting consequence.

But allow me to digress for a moment, and put forward a somehow parallel philosophy.

Exquisite teachers and communicators consistently follow this pattern:

1.   They know what they want to teach/communicate.
2.   They understand that the meaning of their communication is the result they get.
3.   They have enough sensitivity to realise when they are getting what they want.
4.   If they are not getting what they want, they immediately change their behaviour and keep changing it until they get the desired outcome.
5.   In time, experience builds up, and they usualy have a large repertory of behaviours that they can employ to achieve outcomes.

By putting your attention on your own efforts, rather than on results you are setting yourself for random success in regards to results even though you may be achieving consistency of effort.

So I would like now to put forward exactly the converse philosophy. Concentrate on the results, and do your best to achieve such results with the minimum effort on your part

You may feel that you are doing nothing, but everyone around will be pleased.

Which reminds me of a perhaps relevant story.

There was this huge building in town. One day there was a deafening noise coming from downstairs and the whole building seemed to shake. The janitor quickly went to the underground of the building where all the pipes were, and what he saw was not good. The whole complex of piping was shaking and seemed to be ready to explode. He phoned an emergency plumber and a few minutes later an old man arrived. He looked at the pipes for a few seconds, got a small hammer from his tool box and lightly tapped a red valve. Immediately the whole thing went silent. “Fixed” he said to the janitor. “I will send you my bill later”. And he went away.

A couple of days later, the janitor got a bill for 2000 dollars. He took it to the building´s admiistration, and the manager was livid. He phone the plumber:

“This is outrageous! You spend just a couple of minutes in the basement and the janitor said that all you did was tap a valve with your hammer! You cannont possibly be serious that this is worth 2000 dollars!”

The plumber said “OK, I will send you another bill”

Two days later the new bill arrived. It said:

Tapping a valve with small hammer - $ 1.50
Knowing where to tap - $ 1998.50


 


Best wishes,
Bernhard.

I think there's a good Picasso story in the same vein.

[tds]

i think gifted teachers know exactly when and what NOT to say.

[bernhard]

I think there's a good Picasso story in the same vein.

This one?

(although this is a different sort of story. I guess it has more to do with high self-esteem and confidence)

Picasso was in his favourite restaurant in Paris, a meeting place for artists of all kinds. Picasso was already a very famous and financially successful artist. Everyone lknew that his paintings were a great investment and he was painting them by the dozen, shamelessly exploiting his talent to get richer and richer. On that particular day he was particularly happy, so he called the restaurant owner to his table, quickly sketched a drawing on a napkin, handed it over to the restaurant owner and said: “Here: give everyone a free meal and free drinks!”

The restaurant owner grabbed the napkin with trembling hands and obvious delight: He had an original Picasso! Drawn right there in his restaurant. He immediately ordered the witers to serve everyone a free meal and drinks.

Then as he examined the drawing more carefully, he noticed with dismay that Picasso had forgotten to sign the napkin. He went back to Picasso´s table:

“Monsieur Picasso, you have forgotten to sign your beautiful drawing”.

Picasso looked at him for a moment than laughed:

“Hey! I am paying for a free meal, I am not buying your restaurant!”

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

How Ironic Bernhard! Doesnt that apply to you....mmm...

Er… not really.

It applies to anyone and I am no one. (No one is perfect). 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[tiasjoy]

Is it most important for students to like piano lessons and practising the piano?

It's easier, less frustrating and I tend to see much more progress.

So is your first priority to make students want to learn the piano?

It would be nice to think I could encourage students to be open minded, perhaps have my enthusiasm rub off on them, but I''v given up trying to 'make' people 'want' anything.  Acceptance is my key, and then work out how Ill get results with whatever is thrown at me.

do you get sad when a student leaves due to whatever reason?

Depends on the students.  One left the other week and I was relieved.  Another left a while back because she had to get maths tuition instead (couldn't afford both) and I was sad and dissappointed and even a little depressed for a while because I really enjoyed teaching her and having her around .. So... it depends on the individual and how I feel they make me feel I guess.

Do you doubt your teaching abilities when it happens

Not my teaching ability, but sometimes I suspect its because they don't like learning the piano and for some reason that makes me sad or i feel like a failure because how could anyone NOT love the piano!!! and I take it too personally, like I invented the thing or something.

Do you believe in discipline?

Yes.  It's my job.  Discipline simply means training or teaching so a disciple is a 'taught one'.  Sometimes its referred to as punishment.  I try and set up 'consequences' If you do this, then this will happen. Somtimes the consequences are positive, sometimes they are negative.  Hopefully, they teach or 'discipline' the student in some way.

Do you believe in repeated practices

Yes, but before I send them home to do it by themselves so they're confident enough to tackle it again on their own.

What about getting a little fed-up or angry during lessons?

Frustrated quite a bit when other things in my life are making it more difficult for me to be patient.  I feel these things but try to communicate what I expect in a manner that the student will accept and apply.  I've never ranted or raved but have told students there's a problem and we need to fix it....

Have you made a student cry?

Just the other week.  She's 18 and told me she no longer wanted to sit for her grade 7 exam because of stress and issues.  Trying to be helpful I told her she's at a stage that if she wants to do piano just as a hobby she could continue to teach herself at home without lessons - thinking this would ease her 'stress'.  She mustn't have liked that idea, because she burst into tears!  First time it's happened to me. It made me feel awful.  But then it also made me realise how much she likes coming to me....

Do you have "favourites?"

Absolutely!  There are some days I really look forward to and other days I almost dread, and it's because of the students I have that day.  I never say, 'you're my favourite', nor have I ever say, "boy I hate teaching you!'.  Everyone deserves the best I can give - it's just that some people make it easier.

What makes you favour a student over another?

How much they mentally drain me i think.   To an extent it is personality based, but I think it's even more to do with how much I have to work to get the results I want from them.

Is it your job to teach a student how to learn for themselves?

Absolutely!

How can this be applied to piano teaching?

Setting tasks for them to complete at home for that week.  Example they may have to get a piece together  from scratch and perform it for me the following week for me to give them some form of feedback -some students love to get A'sB'C' other just comments.

Will they ever have this when they are younger students?

Yes.  In lesson we may have studied and practised a section hands separate, and their goal is put hands together - the added incentive of getting a prize if they can do that works wonders!

I often joke with my kids ...Should this be done at all?

I don't think I could get through an entire lesson without joking or having some kind of fun and enjoyment with all my students.  I love learning, I love studying, I love using my brain and i really want to help kids and adults see learning and work as enjoyment.... yes it's hard work and can be tiring and difficult, but if it's just a chore, then it's usually something to avoid.  So I make sure people see my personality, including my humour - which doesn't contradict my work ethics.  I really believe people learn best when they feel comfortable.

lower the formality of the piano lesson a bit and cause troubles for respect and serious playing.

I don't really struggle with this.  Somehow my pencils seem to have magical powers or something, because I just have to point it to the page again and we can focus again.  I think it's more to do with my relationship with most of my students, which is pretty close.  I do think this is important- most people realise piano lessons are going to be a long process - years and years - I want them to have a good relationship with the person they have to visit every week for all that time!

[ludwig]

Thanks guys for the different thoughts on these issues I think I ask alot of questions, but I just wanted to see what kind of situations I might get into or already have and how to deal with matters.

Bernhard, I read your posts on how you have daily intense lesson/schedules for your students, can I ask is the main aim of this way of teaching to make sure your students are practising properly? and track their progress as well as give them feedback quicker and more useful for improving? I understand that a main issue here is to guide your students so that they can learn for themselves but will this have the opposite effect as well? Like when they are relying heavely on your suggestions of practice methods? I'm just very fascinated as to how teachers tell their students to practice generally... It is impossible for my kids to come to me even more than once a week and therefore I'm worried for some of them that they will slacken during the week and just practise "mindlessly", which I am afraid of the most. I try to give them guides on how to practice but it would be impossible for me to also go through daily practice methods with them for each piece. Any suggestions on efficiency of practice and methods for efficiency?


Tiasjoy, thanks for the reply for your personal experiences. I suppose my question here also ties in with the above question for Bernhard. I was wondering actually HOW to set tasks for students so they can learn to learn how to practice efficiently, rather than setting tasks for them to do, like how they should tackle the tasks... I always try to set them tasks for next week, and as detailed as possible, for example if they have the basics of a piece such as notes and rhythm, I really want to make them pay attention to their articulation and phrasing, therefore I would ask them to try adding the "punctuation" for each "sentence" in next week, but I would like to give them more suggestions on HOW they could be tackling this task... And other tasks generally... Any thoughts?

[abell88]

Practicespot.com has lots of good ideas for helping students find the best ways to tackle problems.

www.practicespot.com

[bernhard]

from Ludwig:

Bernhard, I read your posts on how you have daily intense lesson/schedules for your students, can I ask is the main aim of this way of teaching to make sure your students are practising properly? and track their progress as well as give them feedback quicker and more useful for improving?

Actually , this is not the aim, but rather the consequence. The main aim is to give students a chance of success in learning the piano. I cannot see how anyone (especially children) can succeed in learning to play the piano (and even more importantly, in learning how to learn to play the piano) with 30 minutes per week plus frequent breaks for holidays.

Successful piano learning requires consistency: you must do it everyday. It also requires great care: you cannot afford to do it wrong.

We are of course talking about average students with average parents and so on.

This is very similar to the literacy situation. The first year in school the children are massively exposed to reading. They get the whole process broken down into its smallest steps (starting with letter and sound recognition). They are drilled into each stage relentlessly day in day out, several times a day. Then suddenly, after on year (more or less) they start reading (no one learns to read gradually – it may take one year to get to the “gelling point”, but then the learning is instantaneous: the second before they couldn´t read, and then suddenly they can). Imagine trying to teach children to read by doing this for only 30 minutes per week. Absurd, is it not? Yet, everyone seems to think tha 30 minutes a week of piano lesson will turn little Johnny in lilttle Mozart in a couple of weeks.

But make no mistake here. Teachers have a vested interest in this as well. There is simply no way you could fit 70 (sometimes more) students a week doing it the way I do. In fact, in my own teaching I estimate that it takes me on average 3 hours of preparation for every 30 minute lesson I give (less for beginners more for advanced students).

from Ludwig

I understand that a main issue here is to guide your students so that they can learn for themselves but will this have the opposite effect as well? Like when they are relying heavely on your suggestions of practice methods?

You understand it correctly. But then you miss the point. First, note that intensive daily lessons take palace only on the first three – six months. After that they drop to twice 30 minutes a week and finally once one hour a week. So the independence is inbuilt in the process. Second, consider again reading. Would you voice the same argument in regards to it? “sorry, but all this intensive reading everyday at school, will it not make the student dependent? Would it not be better if the children were exposed to reading for only 30 minutes a week to foster their independence?” Ridiculous is it not?

from Ludwig:

I'm just very fascinated as to how teachers tell their students to practice generally...

Then you may enjoy going through some of these threads:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3419.msg30083.html#msg30083
(Bernhard’s students - money questions – Judo story  - requirements to become a teacher – skills x credentials)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1775.msg13699.html#msg13699
(Russian Piano School –  Rachmaninoff’s opinion).


https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4321.msg40373.html#msg40373
(why do you teach? – policies and teaching methods –pragmatical theory of memory)



https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2047.msg16848.html#msg16848
(what to do with children crying)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2077.msg17179.html#msg17179
(How to become a teacher)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2246.msg19041.html#msg19041
(Young teachers – why young/bad teachers are not a problem – When the student is ready the right teacher will appear)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2032.msg19339.html#msg19339
(How to become a piano teacher – good advice from minsmusic – the pitfalls as well as the requirements)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4321.msg40373.html#msg40373
(why do you teach? – policies and teaching methods –pragmatical theory of memory)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4002.msg46084.html#msg46084
(m1469 describes the philosophy of a Russian teacher – the pragmatic method and doing wrist locks on students)

from Ludwig:

It is impossible for my kids to come to me even more than once a week and therefore I'm worried for some of them that they will slacken during the week and just practise "mindlessly", which I am afraid of the most.

Well, do not worry about it anymore. Let me take this weight of your mind. With 30 minute lessons per week I assure you that that they will slacken during the week and just practise "mindlessly". But most likely they will not practise at all.

I try to give them guides on how to practice but it would be impossible for me to also go through daily practice methods with them for each piece. Any suggestions on efficiency of practice and methods for efficiency?

Yes, guides are good, but someone still has to go through them with the students – at least in the beginning. One alternative is to drop this job on the parents lap. If the parents are willing, it works wonders. It is the basis of the truly wonderful Susuki Method. In Japan, where the method originated, parents seem far more willing to be part of the learning process than in Europe and the US, where most parents seem to consider the piano teacher just another over-qualified babysitter. But you can try.

As for practice methods, I will second Abel88 suggestion of the practice spot site, which is a magnificent and most useful site. Also have a look at Chang´s online book, which is – in my opinion – required reading for piano students and teachers alike:

https://members.aol.com/cc88m/PianoBook.html

Further than that, you can always read the links contained herein:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5767.msg56133.html#msg56133
(huge collection of links)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[will]

In fact, in my own teaching I estimate that it takes me on average 3 hours of preparation for every 30 minute lesson I give (less for beginners more for advanced students).

Wow, Bernhard I recall you saying you have around 30 students - does this mean that in an average week you spend 90 hours a week on preparing your students lessons?
What exactly do you prepare for each student?

[ludwig]

Thankyou for the suggestions Bernhard. I think I understand now that it is more important to invole the parents in their child's learning if they cannot afford the time or money to come more than once a week for piano lessons. I'm not sure if their parents will be happy about all this involvement as alot of the students who practice "mindlessly" are given to me as their babysitter once a week for an hour, and piano is then also "Something to do" when they are at home  and "children-free" time for the parents Anyways, that's life I suppose. Maybe if I get a little more annoyed with these couple of students I will let them go and refer them to other teachers and see how they do. I suppose this defeats the purpose of the "no bad students only bad teachers" statement.

I will however look into practice methods and efficiency more and perhaps to show them more progress and improvement can be achieved through practising and they might get inspired that way...