Bad classical music - urgent(ish)!

[jas]

Hi all,

Does anyone know of any examples of a piece of classical music that's generally considered to be not very good or -- even better -- just plain awful, and why? (The "why" isn't hugely important; I just need some examples if anyone can think of any.)
I was kind of thinking along the lines of forgotten composers, but it doesn't really matter who it is.

I have my reasons.

Thanks,

Jas

[Siberian Husky]

you will get entirely subjective answers...but mostly answers of overplayed pieces in comparison to underappreciated pieces..my best advice is to just listen to pieces yourself and pass your own judgement..

there is no definitive fine line that separates bad music from good..its a concept of taste...

but if you REALLY dont know and are too timid to pass judgement solely on your own personal taste...look up Finnissy

[jas]

It's not so much that I don't want to pass judgement on my own; it's not individual opinions that I'm looking for. It's more that I need something that by general consensus is inferior to the "great" classics, preferably something that's actually seen as bad, if possible. (A performance equivalent would be Helfgott's Rach 3 - anyone with two ears and half a brain knows it's crap.) I need actual musical works, though. I can't think of anything off the top of my head and I need something quite quickly!
I suppose the music of people like Thalberg and Kalkbrenner (I know, if thalbergmad reads this he won't be happy...) as compared to that of their more famous contemporaries is the kind of thing I mean. But it could be any not-very-good piece of music by any composer.

I'd like a specific work if possible, though (and - for bonus points - the sheet music, if anyone's feeling really generous...).

Jas

EDIT: Who's Finnissy?

[Siberian Husky]

ah i see, so you want a universally accepted answer embraced by the majority of the music critic demographic..well you can simply google this,...but for the most part i feel you will get mostly subjectively inclined answers...i'll wait for others to respond though..


finnissy composes very dissonant music and is often bashed for his lack of musicality or form...for the least untrained ears...most of his music resembles bashing on the keyboard, or random hitting of keys...it takes a very abstract and a VERY VERY open mind to really accept his music...

and if you thought accepting music is hard..some people cant even make it through to listening to one of his pieces haha...i like his music on occasion though..not so much for the relaxing factor, or pleasure factor...i find it interesting how i automatically try to decipher the emotion or theory of mind behind it..i am always left in confusion and question..but its a fun task to tackle..

i'll see if i can find a clip of some of his compositions.

[Siberian Husky]

https://fuwatm.hp.infoseek.co.jp/finnisy_english_country_tune002_choice.mp3

there is a recording of finnissy playing one of his English Country Tunes

hope its not too hard for you to digest

here is the copy of the score to give you a feel for its body and structure..

[Kassaa]

I actually heard a tune in that :O

[Siberian Husky]

o rly?

[Kassaa]

you're asking for it

[Siberian Husky]

you have degraded jas's beautiful thread

[Kassaa]

you have degraded jas's beautiful thread

You have by posting a beautiful piece written by Finnissy and calling it crap.

[Siberian Husky]

are you serious?..grow some balls and reread my posts..i enjoy finnissy..but was giving 'jas' an idea of how subjective judgement is passed on misunderstood pieces..

[johnny-boy]

Gertrude's Waltz - composed by Beethoven. It's pure rubbish.

Which makes a point. Don't assume anything composed by one of the "Greats" has to be good. They've all composed crappy mediocre pieces.

Each piece of music should be judged on its own merit - not by the composer's name associated with it.

Have you ever listened to several of Haydn’s symphonies? He should have stopped after the first half dozen. They all start sounding like the same piece of music after that.

Bach maintains excellent in every piece of his music I’ve heard. But the heavy use of counterpoint in his work gets tiring after awhile – which equates to boredom. I can listen to a half hour of Bach at a time without considering suicide.

Many of the “modern” 20th. Century composes make me want to head to the nearest window to throw up. Pure regurgitation.

Jeez that felt good to get off my chest.

Best, John

[Kassaa]

are you serious?..grow some balls and reread my posts..i enjoy finnissy..but was giving 'jas' an idea of how subjective judgement is passed on misunderstood pieces..

heh I didn't read your posts in the first place, only saw the link and the image.

[g_s_223]

On another board, there's recently been a discussion about musician's least favourite pieces of popular classical music, which is related to what you are asking.

I think the top two works were:
- Ravel's Bolero
- Pachelbel's Canon

Basically, some people really don't like repetition Hence, the mixed reception for Philip Glass maybe...

[jas]

Thank you all for your replies, they've been very helpful. At least I have a few options I can go for now, which is great.
That piece of music is insane... Thanks for posting the music for it.

Jas

[quantum]

SH, thanks for introducing Finnissy and posting music with score.  I like stuff like this.  Who is the pianist?

[JCarey]

That is just one section. The movement (and work) is even better in its entirety. I will post the complete movement that contains the sample Siberian Husky posted. The beginning is quite tonal, which makes the part in the sample even more effective.

Wonderful music. I find that many non-musicians can relate to the music of Finnissy better than the music of, say, Beethoven. While the emotion, by our standards today (where popular music is dominated mostly by Rock), is quite subtle in Beethoven, there is nothing subtle in Finnissy. A sad tune in the introduction, and pure "rocking out" in the next section.

Finnissy's music can seem to represent the huge mix of emotions that a human being may experience in everyday life. Think about it, if somebody were to "paint" human emotion, it would probably be quite abstract, much like the music of Finnissy. With Finnissy, it's not about the notes so much as it is about the overall sound, a sound, I might add, that is quite incredible when it's all put together.

I won't claim that Finnissy's music appealed to me when I first heard it - but then again, neither did Rachmaninov's, Mahler's, or Sorabji's, to name a few. But once you understand that there is more to Finnissy than the notes on the page, it all becomes clear.

By the way, I believe I read once that the tunes were written during a time when the English government was not at its finest. In fact, the emphasis on the word "country" is meant to be put first syllable.

Finnissy was a good guy.

https://www.johncareycompositions.com/requests/02 Track 2.mp3

[prometheus]

Most westerns will find indian classical music crap, so it doesn't really matter when whe talk about styles of music the general people are ignorant with.

You should do a poll under musicologists and try to find it there is consensus to label a famous classical piece as 'bad'.

[Mozartian]

can someone explain the bird-thing "ya rly" thing? everytime i see it i explode with laughter, but I don't know the deal with it and it's bothering me.

[emmdoubleew]

Wow, I had never heard of Finnisy before. He must be an extremely talented pianist to be able to play that outrageous stuff.

[quantum]

JCarey, thanks for posting the whole track.  I'm becoming quite interested in this composer now. 

[abell88]

o rly?

Oh, really?

"ya rly"

Yeah, really.

Don't know why it's an owl, though.

[Siberian Husky]

you catch on quick...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_RLY%3F theres the story behind it..

sorry to hijack the thread..but back on topic..

i think some of classical period music is redudnant..but this is not a new opinion...many other pianist (mostly newbies) share this opinion on classical music...i will also admit that my classical ear is no where near i'd like to be..and one day i hope to appreciate even miniscule details between seemingly repetitive music that differentiate pieces from one another...i dolove every mozart piece..simply because im on mozart's balls forever..great stuff

[sauergrandson]

Elgar: Pomp and circumstance no. 1

Bach (sadly); some works for organ, are awfully boring.

Suppè: Light Cavalry

[ahinton]

By the way, I believe I read once that the tunes were written during a time when the English government was not at its finest.

Really? Maybe so, but, as I implied fairly unequivocally in another thread here earlier today, the UK government is not exactly a paragon of virtue today, either. Anyway, as a matter of fact, my copy of Finnissy's English Country-Tunes states clearly that it "was written in celebration of the Silver Jubilee of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II", which might be seen to suggest that it - and what it was intended to stand for - was supposed to be above reflection of or reaction to the vagaries of the government of the day in UK. Those interested in the music of Sorabji may be curious to know that, whilst most of the performance directions in the score of English Country-Tunes are in English (often seeming to reflect a kind of Graingerian tradition), the first major one (on the last system of page 2) - "sonorità piena dolcissima e morbidissima" - walks (quite consciously) straight out of Sorabji and, as perhaps another matter of interest, the first and last of its eight pieces are dedicated to Alexander Abercrombie and his wife - and those who know about recent developments in respect of Sorabji's music will be aware that Mr Abercrombie has, within less than four years, edited and typeset more of his music than anyone else - over 1,500 pages of it, in fact...

Finnissy was a good guy.

Hey - less of the "was"! - he is still with us, having just passed threescore years only a few weeks ago...

Best,

Alistair

[mikey6]

Beethoven's Wellington's Victory is apparently boring as hell - continuos I-V cadences.
Liszt's first concert etude is not very good from what I've heard.
Vine's 5 bagatelles are boring as hell.

I think the top two works were:
- Ravel's Bolero
- Pachelbel's Canon

I think Bolero deserves some credit - for orchestration and the fact it was the firt minimalist piece ever written (be that good or bad).

[letters]

that finnissy thing sounds like someone having a fit on a keyboard. I JUST DONT GET IT. sorry. *shrugs*

[lisztisforkids]

that finnissy thing sounds like someone having a fit on a keyboard. I JUST DONT GET IT. sorry. *shrugs*

There is a inner, hidden beauty behind all the dissonance....

[letters]

There is a inner, hidden beauty behind all the dissonance....

thats what i said about the cheeky girls but no-one listened.... tut tut