Russian shoot-out!!!

[bennom]

Once, after a concert, where I had played the wonderful Tales op 20 by Medtner, the producer said the following over lunch:

"I think Medtner is second-class Rachmaninoff."

W.T.F.!!!!!!??

I love to play Rach in concerts, but listening to it... no. If I must choose one of them, I go with Medtner. What about you?

(I know, sergei will win, he always does... )

[pianistimo]

have to confess to ignorance since i haven't heard or played much mednter, but according to this web site https://web.njit.edu/CIS634/project/IR/doc/Medtner.html  u must have more complex taste than your conductor friend.  In Classical Music Review David Dubal quotes Ernest Newmann, "His music is not always easy to follow at first hearing, but not because of any extravagance of thought or confusion of technique, it is simply because his music really does go on thinking from bar to bar, evolving logically from it's premises."  this article also says that in medtner's music, every repetition is unique and different. 

because of reading about your frustration of hearing people compare him too much to rachmaninov, it makes me want to listen to his music on his own terms.  wasn't he also said to be the extension of beethoven's style of writing/composition?  it says in this article he was a master of all forms (even miniatures).  that is quite an accomplishment as a composer.  if he went further than rach, that would prove that he was not second rate.  i will not vote as they are unique and different composers.

[arensky]

quotes Ernest Newmann, "His music is not always easy to follow at first hearing, but not because of any extravagance of thought or confusion of technique, it is simply because his music really does go on thinking from bar to bar, evolving logically from it's premises."  this article also says that in medtner's music, every repetition is unique and different. 

That's very interesting; could be why the Maharajah of Mysore loved Medtner's music; these are qualities found in Indian classical music, the continual evolving and the abscence of repetition. Maybe this is why Medtner (like Indian music) has never really caught on in the west. The Maharajah was able to hear the similarity between the two, don't know if it was concious, or maybe I'm way off-base; just a thought, there it is.

I think the producer is missing the point. Medtner is nothing like Rachmaninov, there are only superficial similarities. Medtner is unique in the history of music; the only other composer you can compare him to is Chopin, another completely unique musical individual, and a piano and song composer, almost exclusively.

Medtner's downfall in our time is the abstruse quality of his melodies. He uses melody the way Beethoven did in his late period. And the fact that the melody is subservient to the chord progression, making it somewhat vague in many instances (IMO) in his music doesn't help the general public either; but he's showing up more and more on programs. I think he was way ahead of his time, although he was considered to be behind it during his life. He will not be forgotten, in a hundred years I'm sure that he will cut a better figure in music history than he does now.

But if I had to have only one composer or the other, it would be Rachmaninov. I voted for him.

Glad it's only hypothetical, I can have both... 

[bennom]

I think the producer is missing the point. Medtner is nothing like Rachmaninov, there are only superficial similarities. Medtner is unique in the history of music; the only other composer you can compare him to is Chopin, another completely unique musical individual, and a piano and song composer, almost exclusively.

Very wise post indeed!

But, Medtner and Rachmaninoff are tied together for eternity; here are some of the similarities:

*Born closely in time, died closely in time
*Russians, immigrated to the west after the revolution
*Great pianists
*Composed mainly piano works, piano concertos and chamber music with piano
*Strong religious beliefs
*Typical russian melos
*Harmony-based music (as opposed to rythmical)
*Medtner admired Rachmaninoff!
*Rachmaninoff admired Medtner!

Medtner's downfall in our time is the abstruse quality of his melodies. He uses melody the way Beethoven did in his late period. And the fact that the melody is subservient to the chord progression, making it somewhat vague in many instances (IMO) in his music doesn't help the general public either; but he's showing up more and more on programs. I think he was way ahead of his time, although he was considered to be behind it during his life. He will not be forgotten, in a hundred years I'm sure that he will cut a better figure in music history than he does now.

True, very true. But: I find that the resistance towards Medtner is more from the "professional" listeners than the "music lovers". I have always had great response from audience when perfoirming Medtner. The "experts" though, seem to degrade him, and they will continue to do this, if we pianists continue to deny his greatness.

But if I had to have only one composer or the other, it would be Rachmaninov. I voted for him.

 

BennoM

[apion]

Rachmaninov is one of the most individualistic composers: why compare him with anyone?

[bennom]

Rachmaninov is one of the most individualistic composers: why compare him with anyone?

This is not about comparing, it's a duel...

By the way, is Rach more individualistic than other composers?

For me, he is clearly inspired by (early) Scriabine, Mussorgsky, Tchaikowsky and Medtner! He's the link between russian romanticism and prokofiev. And yes, he can and shall be compared with anyone.

[apion]

This is not about comparing, it's a duel...

I stand corrected 

By the way, is Rach more individualistic than other composers?

Well, there's no way to answer that: it's purely subjective. 

[bennom]

I can't believe Medtner actually got 3 votes so far!!! It's better than I expected.

I wonder who you two other guys are?

[BoliverAllmon]

I voted Medtner simply to increase his votes. haven't really heard much of his stuff.

[prometheus]

Medtner of course. He sacrificed himself on the alter of art while Rachmaninoff found himself forced to write conservative piano music he didn't really like himself. Though the reason he said that may also be his depressive nature...

[edit]
Wait, now I use 'sacrifice on the alter of art' in the opposite way Liszt used it in my quote. Liszt is talking about sacrificing music for the sake of money. I am talking about sacrificing yourself for the sake of music. There is a reason why Medtner will get crushed in this poll. And the votes that he gets come from people who don't know his music but feel sorry for him.

[bennom]

There is a reason why Medtner will get crushed in this poll. And the votes that he gets come from people who don't know his music but feel sorry for him.

He got my vote from sheer love of his music. I'll hear his op 1 nr 1 before anything from Rach. It's true. But...yes, I also feel a bit sorry for him.

[tds]

I voted Medtner simply to increase his votes. haven't really heard much of his stuff.

will you vote tds over polini?

[pianistimo]

that would be another thread, tds!  when are you going to tell us who you actually are!  i saw a pic of you that was only a silouette.  i thought, hmm...he looks like elton john.  then, you reasurred me that you were definately NOT elton john.  i have been racking my brain ever since to figure out who you are (with these long programs and entering three piano competitions).  all i can figure, is that you are an upstart that is going delirious from the 100 degree heat there in texas (the earliest heat wave on record).  *please forgive me!  but pollini is hard to beat.  are you really a perfectionist and a musician?  (i wouldn't care either way - because i love pianists of all different persuasions - but i definately love pollini for those attributes).  is tds italian?   

[tds]

that would be another thread, tds! when are you going to tell us who you actually are! i saw a pic of you that was only a silouette. i thought, hmm...he looks like elton john. then, you reasurred me that you were definately NOT elton john. i have been racking my brain ever since to figure out who you are (with these long programs and entering three piano competitions). all i can figure, is that you are an upstart that is going delirious from the 100 degree heat there in texas (the earliest heat wave on record). *please forgive me! but pollini is hard to beat. are you really a perfectionist and a musician? (i wouldn't care either way - because i love pianists of all different persuasions - but i definately love pollini for those attributes). is tds italian?

tds is prolly a bot.

but no, he definately no italiano

[pianistimo]

a bot, ehh.  my nickname for you is now 'hot bot.'  you have to record in the audition room (like me) sometime.  or have you already.  will go look.  (i do too, but i can't get it together yet - the recording).

[tds]

pianonut, ur nice n early!

[pianistimo]

i'm extremely temperature sensitive.  i wake up when i get cold.  my four year old grabs the blankets and pulls them off, then, i'm like - well,t hen, take the whole bed.

what are u doing up so early?  practicing marathon at 3 am?  wish i had that kind of motivation.  but, my family would kill me.  don't really get started with anything until after 8am.  which might still be piano forum.   

[fred smalls]

I love medtner..... obviously rach will win but i find that everything about medtners music is perfect.... there is no better music in the world... i had to come out of retirment from this forum to support him...

[fred smalls]

btw thats been my sig for like 6 months,..... dont think i just hopped on the bandwagon


if anyone wants to realize why medtner is the best composer ever..... just buy the sonatas -  hamelin  recording

[sergei r]

Haha...looks like I win...

[apion]

I love medtner........ i had to come out of retirment from this forum to support him...

COOL !




(but i still prefer Rach) 

[bennom]

BUMP! It's your duty to vote!

Don't forget to choose side in the great battle of russian dinosaurs!