to parents and all - which is worse...?

[stevie]

this interesting

[BoliverAllmon]

not sure which I find more upsetting. Strong sexual images can lead to a lust for violence and vice versa.

boliver

[prometheus]

Sexual images lead to violence?

Huh?

I am not sure what you mean but rape is primarily a act of violence rather than sex. It is also about violence, power and humiliation rather than sex, lust and satisfaction.

Maybe you should read the oldest story in the world, Gilgamesh.

By many cultures sex is seen as something good, something divine and something worth of celeberation.
Enkido was two third animal and two third human, he lived in the wild and runned with the antilopes as one of them. He saved animals from their traps, driving a trapper to desperation. The man went to wise king Gilgamesh and he told the trapper to go to Shamhat, priestess of Ishtar. Shamhat then went with the trapper and when they say Enkidu she seduced him. Enkido was then civilised by having sex with a priestess, a priestess who's job at first seems better described by the word 'prostitute' but this is very wrong. Then when Enkido is civilised he was more moral than Gilgamesh, who was a tyrant. He was more human than the king. He opposed Gilgamesh, the fight was a draw and they became brothers, probably having a homosexual relationship, which was common. Not because they were homosexual but, again, because it was common for normal people to do so.

I think people need to try to reduce violence in popular culture and that violence needs to be taken more serious. Violence happens and popular culture needs to depict it as something that is bad, a last resort, that killing people is wrong but may sometimes be unavoidable. Instead, killing people is often glorified.

But also violence in general. People think they can hit someone in the face without much concequence, because it is done in movies. People do not realise that the person they hit can die with one blow to the head and that they can break their hand and fingers.

As for sex, I hope their will be a trend to make tasteful erotic culture more popular. I mean, most 'porn movies' are absolutely awful. But then again I don't know much about this. I have been told that there is also pornography made for a female audience. I do wonder if this is bearable, probably mostly because I want to believe females do have some taste in eroticism rather than an interest in pornography itself.
Take all those MTV clips, they are awful. I have been told they have resulted in group rape by children of only 12 to 15 several times.

We need eroticism on tv that shows two people that are each other's equal. Romanticism and depth need to be added. We need more eroticism that depicts realism and humility. Sex isn't that important.

Also, you can enjoy erotic art without being aroused at all. You don't even have to enjoy erotic art through 'sex' itself. And I don't really mean masturbation. I mean any sexual consideration. You can enjoy erotic art through pure rationality.

But the idea that sex is as bad as violence... I find this a higly immoral view, even if male sexuality that is depicted in popular culture is largely ugly and the lack of female sexuality, or female sexuality reduced to pleasing men or gaining power on men.
I have been told that in the US the balance between the two is totally lost.


Ooh, wait. This is a Stevie topic...

[stevie]

well, the most hilariously revealing thing about american culture recently was the reaction to the janet jackson superbowl tit thing, naturally a legendary moment, but people got soooooo upset about it, hilariously.

[prometheus]

Yes, the US was subject of world wide redicule for weeks...


Wait, I am no longer supposed to say things like that...

[Kassaa]

US is so hypocrite, GTA San Andreas was originally 17+, you can kill people in any way you want in that game, kill cops etc. But when they found a boob, there were lawsuits and it instantly became 18+ :') .

[BoliverAllmon]

yes, porn can lead to violence. I saw some research about it once. Ted Bundy contributes his violent behavior to porn. Not everyone leads down that road though. I do see a difference between sex and porn. sex is beautiful and meaning. porn is an industry about making money by feeling on people's emotions and desires.

boliver

[Waldszenen]

Personally I'd find explicit sex worse. Don't know why, but I just think that with the level of violence that's already in games, it shouldn't make that much more of a difference if they saw the real thing.

[Kassaa]

Personally I'd find explicit sex worse. Don't know why, but I just think that with the level of violence that's already in games, it shouldn't make that much more of a difference if they saw the real thing.

But, would you rather have your kid seeing someone's throat cut off or seeing some or seeing someone  'putting the hotdog in the bun', (thanks Donjuan for these wonderful words  ) )

[ted]

I have little trouble deciding that explicit violence is the worst of the three categories. Suffering of any sort repulses me and deliberately inflicted suffering much more so.

Now the other two categories are not as straightforward, it seems to me. I am probably a product of my environment and upbringing as much as anybody else. The home of my childhood was vulgar and rude, but very healthily so. For instance, there was nudity and coarse language in abundance, and no concealment of private parts. A spade was a spade, a penis was a penis, a fanny was a fanny and a fart was a fart, and jolly funny they all were too. There was nothing particularly scurrilous about any of it. If anything, the whole atmosphere concerning these things was light-hearted, rather like traditional British comedy, which I still enjoy above other varieties.

I was brought up to believe, however, that sex acts themselves were private. I do not morally condemn those who believe otherwise. There have been many experiments in open communities, some of which cannot be labelled failures. But that is a complex business and beyond the space of this topic. The point I am making is that the other two choices are very much dependent on exactly how the material is presented, and personal reactions really do vary enormously.

My son is excited by entirely different images to those which I find titillating. He suggested years ago that I watch some of his pornography. When I did so, I found it anything but exciting. Close ups of genitals akin to sights in a doctor's consulting room involving mechanistic movements and frozen expressions on the faces of participants do nothing for me at all. I'm more subtle than that. But I do not consider watching it has done him any mental harm.

Language is another aspect which is very personal and, as far as what is acceptable and legal on television, thoroughly confused at the present time, at least in this country. Certain words seem to be forbidden while others, equally as strong, are sprinkled liberally at all hours of the night on television. What I personally find in poor taste, others may find normal or even funny, and vice-versa.

[stevie]

yes, porn can lead to violence. I saw some research about it once. Ted Bundy contributes his violent behavior to porn. Not everyone leads down that road though. I do see a difference between sex and porn. sex is beautiful and meaning. porn is an industry about making money by feeling on people's emotions and desires.

boliver

'not everyone' being 99.9%, and by your description the music industry is the same as the porn industry

Personally I'd find explicit sex worse. Don't know why, but I just think that with the level of violence that's already in games, it shouldn't make that much more of a difference if they saw the real thing.

theres a big difference...i grew up with violent video games and movies, i could distinguish what was real and what wasnt, i enjoyed driving around and running people over randomly and shotting people in the forehead, in a game.
only in the last couple of years, with access to the internet, i have witnessed some footage of true violence - point blank shooting, gross violent images, and decapitation with a penknife.....and i was disturbed and sickened, and i hate seeing things like that.
and yet i can go on watching violent movies, because theres a big difference, when you know its real its VERY different, and even as a kid i knew this.

i find it disturbing that ANYONE hasnt voted for the violence option, but 8 people apparently have, i find that a bit disturbing....

[ted]

Me too, Stevie. So half the voters think a bit of swearing and a few rude pictures are worse than depiction of deliberate cruelty. I can't really understand that.

[gilad]

i'm also astounded that so many people have chosen sex and language as more cause for concern than violence.

[026497]

Violence is the worst!
when i was small, my grandpa, father and uncles watched porn nearly every week. I didn't feel offended nor disturbing. it's very funny to watch their expression. while they were doing that, i was playing, reading or eating on the floor. Thinking of what the hell the porn is, cartoons is much better. Persuaded them to change the channel... Now, I am completely 'normal', not a rapist or slut.
On the other hand, violence makes me sick. I want to run away when I see or hear about it.

[penguinlover]

I agree that violence is the worst.  When we don't respect the life we have been given, we don't respect anything.  We get desensitized to violence, and it takes more and more to satisfy our curiosity.  When we get like this, sexual violence increases. When we dont' care for ourselves, we degrade ourselves to watch sickening stuff like this.  But back to what I think.  I think it starts with violence, so I wouldn't want my kid to watch it.  Maybe I am a bit strict, but my and my family don't go to movies that are even PG-13 (with very few exceptions).  You just can't trust what's in them.

[pianistimo]

agreed about what you watch.  when people are 'desensitized' they can become addicted.  then, it's not about being in control of your  own life.  i feel badly for people who are addicted to anything whether the computer (just forums to games or porn or violence) or actually going and doing those things. 

too bad we don't have as many examples of people doing decent things (ie a movie about a guy being a virgin and someone appreciating it).  but, people who maintain their integrity no matter what will enjoy more benefits of comprehending love on a deeper level.   as prometheus said - it's not about self as much as others and having humility.  that to me is really loving someone.  when you actually care about them - not as an object.

on the flip side - i don't think you should marry someone you're not physically attracted to.  sex has it's place and i think it's one of the big issues of marriage.   to me, what keeps a good marriage going is to be able to seduce your mate as much as possible.  (and if they are not on the internet and you don't feel like you are competing with it - it's much easier).  it makes your mate feel much more confident if they are the 'ideal' and not anyone on the internet.  it takes a lot of energy to stay in shape and keep learning new things so that you are attractive to your mate (and still work a full day and/or take care of kids).  i've learned to go off and do something for myself once in awhile to refresh myself.  i went to strawbridges the other day because they do 'free makeovers' and you feel really great afterwards without spending more than what you might for a  paid makeover.  trying some new makeup or clothing can't hurt. 

what i think is hurtful is starting to exclude your mate or friends for the internet.  just don't get addicted in the first place.  it all starts in the mind.  if you constantly remind yourself in little ways (for me , it's to have family pics around - esp of my husband on the fridge or in my purse).  in our society it's kind of expected that people flirt and cheat on each other - but it's not a very good standard to measure down to.  no matter how you feel you look or your weight or whatever - you can make an effort to be really attractive again and sexually active with your partner.  that will keep your marriage like a clean stream of water.  no one wants to go into a stream that's filled with mud and debris.  if our society taught abstinence for younger people - they'd  know what it is to have a committment to one person and hold them up higher than anyone else.  not to worship them or anything - but to hold them up as the 'standard.' 

my husband is really nice to me - and when i get frustrated or feel that i'm somehow not measuring up - he always reassures me.  he keeps our anniversary every month.  and, i've learned to communicate a lot more about things that bother me, or things that i want or need.  and, he's learned to do it too.  it takes effort on both sides or you start being silent and withdrawing.  but, when you go the other direction there is no stopping.  to enjoy giving  pleasure to the other person and putting them first (after God)  in your life.  first before any other person who calls, or wants your attention or time.  of course, you have to be respectful of work time - but i mean free time.  when partners feel like the other person cares - there is actually less time spent trying to mend or fix things or people having hurt feelings for a long time.  we like to go bicycling together.

i think there is no such thing as picking what is worse.  it's all bad and it all can be changed if you make another point of destination and head for it.  if you feel tempted to look at stuff on the internet - decide that you won't and find an activity that keeps you away from it (with mate).  impersonal sex is nothing compared to the real thing.  i think it keeps you feeling good and your mate feeling attractive and less tempting to look elsewhere.

[prometheus]

About love in movies. Even in the innocent and romantic movies not a realisic view is created. It is too much a fairy tale.

I remember that people changed "...and they happely lived ever after." into "...and they married and lived together. It was not always easy but in the end they were happy." or something like that.

Maybe the idea, if it actually exists as an idea, that hollywood, or any other source of movies, present a realistic view of life in general is a bad one. Maybe this is kind of obvious but I don't think people are really conscious of this. I know I am not, at least not enough.

[pianistimo]

well, you start with your boss and learn 'sucking up.'  (sorry about the language)  and then, you get married and do a lot more of it.  you just admit sometimes you are wrong.  you go overboard when the other person is offended to right the wrong.  and, if you are skillful, like my husband, you may even convince the other person that no wrong was committed in the first place (and end up having the fight all over again). 

my husband and i should have been italian.  we've had fights, but now we KNOWhow to fight.  it's all in the fairness.  you have to be fair.  you can't punch five times in a row and then, pause and give a final knockout.  you have to wait for two or three punches.  and, then do the knockout.  we don't really hit or anything - but we like to have enough of a fight that making up is worth it. (we use verbal sparring, or occasionally food and water).  of all our arguments, the ones over the kids are the most stressful.  but, in the end, we usually get it out and come to some kind of agreement so we are together on decisions for the family and ourselves.

what i think is worse than getting it out is the silent treatment.  my husband and i have learned it's far worse because you just get into a mode of not explaining your feelings.  now - we just let it all out.  but, we've learned to be more careful of the other persons feelings, too.  timing is crucial.  my husband is very sneaky...if he wants some electronic item - he starts showing me pictures of it months in advance of the purchase date.  then, he starts talking about how it works and what it does.  then, by the end, i'm saying - oh, we really need *** - it would really be a good thing.  for me, i just buy the dress or item and then hide it in the closet.  when i wear it - that's when i sell the item.

[ted]

Stevie's original, clearly defined question now appears to have been successfully lost in a miasma of unrelated waffle.   

[nanabush]

Obviously a beheading or something like that... the kid's gonna lookat porno anyways, I'm sure no kid is gonna be searching for violent videos like that on the net... I'm sure something like that has a much higher chance of traumatizing a kid.

[pianistimo]

sorry ted if i borrowed your idea.  i started thinking today that maybe you were the one that came up with the punches.  anyway,  about the waffles...

[stevie]

i grew up being allowed to stay up late nights and watch sexual shows on tv, ive grown up with access to porn on the net, and i have enjoyed all of it, i think its pretty much ok to allow children to view the kind of stuff i saw from the age i saw them (around 11-12...or so).
i have wondered what harm it has done me, its true that it has become a bit of an addiction and it took some of the 'mystery' of doing the real thing myself, its just the same kind of titillation people have gotten for thousands of years.

mildly.

[stevie]

and to pianistimo , i noticed in another thread your son witnessed violent footage of genocide and stuff like that....now im curious which youd have preferred him seeing - that violent footage, or an explicit porno tape at school..?

try to keep your answer concise

[pianistimo]

this may seem incongruous, since i am christian - but, even the bible says 'there's a season for everything.'  young people go through a season where they are - as you say - quite curious about what turns the opposite sex on.  i have to admit being fairly shocked when dr. ruth was on sesame street (wondered what she was going to say) but - the gist of our modern culture is that sex - a lot of sex - is the ideal.  from what i've learned - a lot of sex IS good for your heart - but results in a load of children too.  (even if you are using condoms).  say - if you start a sexual relationship at age 17-18 and keep going into your 60's or 70's - you could have over 12 children.  many did in past generatiosn.  many do now.  they have 3 or 4 different families sometimes.

what i am against really is divorce.  i think sometimes sex becomes so number one that people seek it more than the relationship.  that's all i'm saying.  not that curiousity is bad - or that God can't forgive the addictions that teens often have to the first time they see porn or see violence and think - hmm that's interesting.  as you get older, it's easier to say - yuk.  i know it looks attractive at first - but it's really yukky for a girl to be doing a girl and guy and girl and who knows what germs she's got in her mouth.  or a guy to hav e a venereal disease and be passing it around.  i think both sexes should be told as they mature what constitutes a good relationship (besides sex).  then when they are adults (18 in the usa) they will not be drawn continuously back to irresponsible reactions to feelings - but thought out their life so they will bless their children to see two loving people that stay together.

violence seems like it is always in the backgroudn in the news or elsewhere - so how can we get away from it if we wanted?  same with sex.  it's just a choice that teens have to learn about much earlier that 17-18.  by then, you can't tell them anything anyway!  they have to want information.  to process it and make a decision for their own life before someone else makes a few decision for them.  i've always told my son that if he goes into the military - still not to shoot to kill.  i say - hit them in the hand or leg - after having a leg injury i realize you can't go very far with a bad leg.

[stevie]

you didnt answer my question, and i hilariously asked you to be concise.

but anyway, wanna go for a ride?

[chromatickler]

porn is worse due to the relative scarcity of the act it depicts

everyone dies, but not everyone will get to have sex.

[ted]

Prometheus implicitly raised a very interesting and complex point in his last post. To what degree do we consciously discern reality from fantasy when watching movies ? And, assuming we can do this, what is the extent to which we ought to electively abandon ourselves to fantasy ? Music, which we all love, is pure fantasy, yet we consider it very healthy to abandon ourselves to it for hours at a time. Most people fantasise about sex very regularly and consider such activity healthy. Moreover, the nature of these fantasies is such that, were they transfrerred to reality, or even to the television screen, it would result in personal disaster or the courtroom. To a large extent fantasy also seems essential to any creative thinking. 

What sort of fantasy is healthy and what sort is harmful ?  Are some fantasies harmful to some people but innocuous to others, in the same way as an alcoholic cannot enjoy a drink as the rest of us can ? Aside from a brief glance at the news and the odd documentary, I seriously doubt many people watch television in order to see reality.

[ada]

I'd rather my kids watch home grown sex and violence than American content on TV. You Americans have no idea how insidious US cultural imperialism is in other parts of the world.

Before you know it your kids are calling chips "fries" and garbage "trash" and pronouncing "mum" as "mom" and saying crap like "it's, like, soooo not fair" and your sons want to grow up like Rambo and your daughters want to grow up like Paris Hilton ....

[stevie]

hahahahaa, chill

[pianistimo]

can you clarify 'home grown sex.'  i'm confused?  is this a british term for having one child.  at least here we have sex.  the norm is two or three children, but not confined to it.  (sorry, i'm in a fighting mood tonight- very ungodly i know!).

[ada]

Oh by "home grown"  I mean locally produced rather than imported.

I was being a bit facetious - but trying to make a point about how awful it is to hear American accents on our TVs and hear our kids adopting Americanisms (nothing personal against Americans, American culture is fine as long as it stays where it belongs - in the US)  .

[rimv2]

Oh by "home grown"  I mean locally produced rather than imported.

I was being a bit facetious - but trying to make a point about how awful it is to hear American accents on our TVs and hear our kids adopting Americanisms (nothing personal against Americans, American culture is fine as long as it stays where it belongs - in the US)  .

As an American I can say that you have no Idea what you is talking about.

America doesnt have a single dominant culture.

The cultures you see on tv are the ones the Media in this country find most profitable.

The media is to a culture what And1 is to basketball.

You see these people playing ball in an stylish way, the children try to immitate this style.

What you dont see is the actual hard work the people go through to get their skillz to a level that they can afford to show off.

So you have these kids with what appears to be awesome handles and style when really, once you get past that, they no little about the game.

The media in america, much like And1, sells an image(s).

Some idiots buy into it. Most dont.

You only see the ones who do.

Also.

Americans dont sit around on couches and do nothing as one friend enters to tell how dramatic it will be when said friend tells another friend that she is pregnant with friends baby and friend has been divorced by friends lesbian ex-wife while other friend has slept with hundreds of women and stars on Days of Our lives.

Americans dont sit at a dinner and talk about nothing, while doing nothing until their eccentric friend enters and tells of an amazingly dangerous adventure he had and somehow survived and goes off next week to something similar.

Americans dont sit at clubs or restaurants and describe in detail the new flavor of the week all while basking in promiscuity.

Americans dont become plastic surgeons all for the purpose of making money, and hooking up with the hottest sluttiest chicks they can find.

Americans dont stay with a group of americans for 20-30 weeks in a huge loft with cameras and do nothing but pregnant dog and have sex.

Not every teen in america is but ugly with glasses and sudddenly a freaking hotty when she takes them off.


There are a few in America who can relate the ideas above, but for the most part these are just ideas being sold.

STOP BELIEVING EVERYTHING YOU SEE ON TV

 

[rimv2]

I'd rather my kids watch home grown sex and violence than American content on TV. You Americans have no idea how insidious US cultural imperialism is in other parts of the world.

Before you know it your kids are calling chips "fries" and garbage "trash" and pronouncing "mum" as "mom" and saying crap like "it's, like, soooo not fair" and your sons want to grow up like Rambo and your daughters want to grow up like Paris Hilton ....

No offense, but you sound like many of the racist in this country.

Change happens.

Get used to it

[ada]

As an American I can say that you have no Idea what you is talking about.

America doesnt have a single dominant culture.

The cultures you see on tv are the ones the Media in this country find most profitable.

The media is to a culture what And1 is to basketball.

You see these people playing ball in an stylish way, the children try to immitate this style.

What you dont see is the actual hard work the people go through to get their skillz to a level that they can afford to show off.

So you have these kids with what appears to be awesome handles and style when really, once you get past that, they no little about the game.

The media in america, much like And1, sells an image(s).

Some idiots buy into it. Most dont.

You only see the ones who do.

Also.

Americans dont sit around on couches and do nothing as one friend enters to tell how dramatic it will be when said friend tells another friend that she is pregnant with friends baby and friend has been divorced by friends lesbian ex-wife while other friend has slept with hundreds of women and stars on Days of Our lives.

Americans dont sit at a dinner and talk about nothing, while doing nothing until their eccentric friend enters and tells of an amazingly dangerous adventure he had and somehow survived and goes off next week to something similar.

Americans dont sit at clubs or restaurants and describe in detail the new flavor of the week all while basking in promiscuity.

Americans dont become plastic surgeons all for the purpose of making money, and hooking up with the hottest sluttiest chicks they can find.

Americans dont stay with a group of americans for 20-30 weeks in a huge loft with cameras and do nothing but pregnant dog and have sex.

Not every teen in america is but ugly with glasses and sudddenly a freaking hotty when she takes them off.


There are a few in America who can relate the ideas above, but for the most part these are just ideas being sold.

STOP BELIEVING EVERYTHING YOU SEE ON TV

 

What on earth are you talking about??

No offense, but you sound like many of the racist in this country.

Change happens.

Get used to it

With all respect comments like this are why Americans get a reputation for arrogance.

[pianistimo]

dear ada,  tonight i've calmed down from my initial reaction to your anti-americanism.  you won't be the first or last to detest our popular culture.  but, i really believe the above poster is correct for the state of pennsylvania and for many parts of the country that still believe in working hard during the week, mowing the lawn, or cleaning up the house on the weekend, and going back to work on monday.  who has time for all the soap opera stuff.  rich people?  who have nothing else to do? we are no different than the rest of the world in moral issues.  people are tempted.  good and evil is everywhere - not just in america.   (used to live in california - and the neighborhood we were in didn't glorify any of that stuff either - though crime was a growing problem due to drug useage of younger set.  if you can keep drugs out of the neighborhood you have a fighting chance for your children not to be exposed to the worst kinds of crime (violence, drugs, sex) committed when people are not themselves.  for instance, it also affects how people behave to obtain money, when they are driving (police chases that kill innocent people), and the cost of maintaining prisons for people who become addicted to any of the above.

[prometheus]

Well, I am not sure if I should call Ada's joke 'bad' or the people that reacted to it 'stupid'.

[pianistimo]

you don't live in america.  if someone called holland an immoral nation - would you just sit there and laugh.  i know we don't have to respond to every insult - but occasionally there is reason to stand up and ask 'do brits really have more fun?'  ada is saying that we are the cause for british downfall.  the brits have always had problems.  look at the tabloids.  and yet, we are brothers.  do we start insulting them about prince charles or the fact that fergie had to come over here and start weightwatchers ads to get away from stress.  btw, i think british royalty are quite irresponsible but very smart.  i really like fergie and i think she's got her head on straight now.  of course, hindsight is always easier as you get older and maybe it's not a national thing but an age related thing.

[prometheus]

Sure.

My country actually gets tons of tra... garbage. The Itallian elections was a few weeks ago. In my country when parents get a baby that is drastically misformed or ill that it has no fair chance of life, the parents have the option to have euthanasia applied on their child. This is meant to be mercy killing for the sake of the baby.

Now this was compared to the nazi's killing any non-perfect baby to keep the race pure. I have seen someone on Fox claim the same thing. I think in that case the Dutch ambassador in the US made a lot of work of it because the news wasn't that 'fair and balanced' to say the least.

Now I don't know if you know the tone of the debate in Italy but you can probably imagine it is pretty ugly.

[pianistimo]

many more deformities seem to be happening nowdays (perhaps to environmental issues).  when a baby is dramatically deformed and unable to be helped by surgery - i'm not so sure myself the solution.  but, i've witnessed a mother who had several surgeries performed on her premie and the child is doing better (although will never have a normal life according to normal here).  she had a stomach tube, the last time i saw her - had very bad eyesight  - and had a cleft lip operate on (which caused her not to be able to eat as a baby).   i really don't know if either parent had taken drugs - but this is sometimes the case - but not always. 

i think prevention is the BEST thing people can do for their babies before it gets to this late stage.  there must be clinics where pregnant women can go to be monitored and told to STOP smoking, to obtain nutritional snacks (if they are poor), and to be helped possibly if they are on the street to stay away from drugs (esp. while pregnant).  it is SO unfair for a baby to not have any chances for survival simply because of bad choices.

and, in the usa - there is a choice by parents of what to do in terms of survival.  if the parents want life support - it is given.  i don't know about really bad cases where the baby doesn't ahve organ functions or something.  all i can say is that i am in favor of quality of life BEFORe choices have to be made over a child who had no say in what went on during a pregnancy.

[prometheus]

Deformities can happed without drugs.

There was a report on a 7 year old child that had literally no brain, well it had something, like only the brain stem. It could not even sit, it could not keep balance.

The mother told the doctors didn't want to let it die so they saved the baby. Now she is forced to give it all her love. Apperently she was doing this. But it must be very frustrating to give love to a baby without a brain, meaning he cannot even perceive anything of the love his mother gives him.

[pianistimo]

anomolies like this are very sad - but if a woman is tested for drugs and they are found in her system - i think she should have the baby taken away and cared for elsewhere while she gets off the drugs.  it's so mean to treat a baby in this way.  to have to see a baby go through withdrawl. 

and, for boyfriends, or husbands that take drugs - i think they should find out more if it does affect sperm and all.  to me, it should be a crime.  it is affecting the children of our future - and very unfair.

am sure there are anomolies that cannot be explained - but i think in the vast majority of cases it is drug related or environmental.  ie exposure to paint (lead), toxic vapors, gasoline vapors, stress (?), poor diet.  this is my opinion only, and not scientific research or anything. 

[prometheus]

The development of the child is very complex. Many things can go wrong. The most common is probably a genetic defict.

[pianistimo]

what if a grandmother or mother took certain drugs.  would it affect their genes or are they unffected.  say if you have someone who had thyroid problems and took thyroid drugs.  would this only affect the thyroid and not the reproductive tract and possibly the developing genes of the unborn baby?  suppose it depends on the drugs, etc. what about the side effects?  not saying all drugs are bad. or that everything is a result of drugs, but it would be interesting to compare the amount of deformity and possible reasons from past generations to today.  still 60 -70 percent of deformity is from 'unknown' causes.  but, genetic is next.

hasn't environmental pollution cause a lot of defects among birds and animals recently.  i thought i saw a national geographic article on recent findings (anomalies of animal births).  water sources are probably good to check, too, and to make sure to purify (especially when pregnant).

[prometheus]

Genes are just bad luck. They come from the parents, who get theirs from their parents.

The way drugs influence the development of the child is the enviroment in the womb during the pregnancy. The conditions in the womb during pregnancy are important to the development of the baby. Thinks like character, sexual preference are already partly defeloped during this stage, I believe. This also includes mental syndromes or disorders. For example the chance to get something like borderline or schizophrenia during adulthood  can be increased by conditions in the womb.

But this is all badly understood and very subtle. As for enviroment. I am not really sure. Of course dangerous levels of radiation cause deformities. But that is largely through genes because the radiation damages the DNA. So I don't know. You need to find a study on this.

Also, I do think that people dying a few years earlier because of pollution is probably much more significant that deformities in babies.

[rimv2]

With all respect comments like this are why Americans get a reputation for arrogance.

Arrogance If telling someone to except a fact is arrogant ahm guilty as charged

But I'd prefer to be called enlightened. Or at least not narrowminded

But please oh please dont make me drink poison.

Also, Ahm sure any history professor in your country would agree as well

What on earth are you talking about??

Stereotypical views the world has about Americans 

[ada]

Dear Pianistimo

I think I should clear a few things up.

I am not British, I am not blaming the US for Britain's "downfall".  And regardless what I might think, nothing in my post suggested I was calling the US "an immoral nation".

I was making what was intended as a light hearted comment that is often made in my country - where we do actually have a right to our own culture - but which obviously doesn't translate into American.

Yes I have my views on the US as a nation and a player in world affairs but I wasn't setting out to insult any individual.

It's clear that we don't see eye to eye on a number of issues, but we do have at least one thing in common, otherwise we wouldn't be visiting this site.

So what I'm saying is I don't want any animosity. I'm not changing my views on the US but please accept my public apology if I offended you personally, Pianistimo, it wasn't intended.

Arrogance If telling someone to except a fact is arrogant ahm guilty as charged

Good. Then it's agreed. You're an arrogant sh**t

[rimv2]

Good. Then it's agreed. You're an arrogant sh**t

What tact 

But please, call me genius. 

[pianistimo]

thanks ada.  you, me, andm1469should get together and watch that movie about grizzlies sometime.  then, she can slap me, and i can slap you, and we can all have a good time.  you wanted me off the forum, if i remember right about two months ago.  that's all i'd slap you for.  then, you could slap me because i'm an american.  then, i could slap you because you're british and hiding it.  then, we'd sit down and eat some good russian food.

[ada]

thanks ada. you, me, andm1469should get together and watch that movie about grizzlies sometime. then, she can slap me, and i can slap you, and we can all have a good time. you wanted me off the forum, if i remember right about two months ago. that's all i'd slap you for. then, you could slap me because i'm an american. then, i could slap you because you're british and hiding it. then, we'd sit down and eat some good russian food.

I so did not want you off the forum! I threatened to quit the forum myself!! And I am sooooo not British!!!!! I am an Aussie mate.

 

[lilypiano]

Oh by "home grown"  I mean locally produced rather than imported.

I was being a bit facetious - but trying to make a point about how awful it is to hear American accents on our TVs and hear our kids adopting Americanisms (nothing personal against Americans, American culture is fine as long as it stays where it belongs - in the US)  .

I can understand why an overload of American culture in your country would be annoying, but I think alot of Americans tend to welcome cultural influences from other countries. I love British tv.  love the Beatles. I like belly dancing. love Chinese food,  Mexican food, Indian, Middle eastern,Indian MUSic, Italians, and I just like  learning more about other cultures. All kinds of people live here. The U.S. has been influenced by other cultures since people began to settle it.
love European classical music too.
I know some Americans have adopted British words (know you're not British) recently too.  like shite.