What happens when we die?

[lisztisforkids]

Do we go to Heaven, Hell, or the Halls of Valhala to fight all day and drink all night? Or do we reincarnate into a toad or something? Or maybe nothing happens....

Correct me of im wrong, but I just heard that Jesus actually never taught that if you are good you go to heaven after you die... That belief was actually brought into play many years later....

[prometheus]

Jesus was jewish. Jewish people don't believe in hell and heaven like most modern chistians.

Hell is probably invented by the church. It does not exist in the old testament.

Also, when we die we cease to exist. It is very simple but for some reason hard to imagine.

[lisztisforkids]

.

Also, when we die we cease to exist. It is very simple but for some reason hard to imagine.

Not only do I not believe that, but I do not want to believe it either...

[nanabush]

I try to think otherwise, but I have never been blessed with a miracle, nor have I ever encountered anything remotely close to a supernatural experience, so I do not believe in afterlife of any form, or any higher beings.  I try hard to open my mind and my soul, but I can't seem to grasp what most 'religious' people find easy to grasp.  I'm ashamed to be an athiest 

[lisztisforkids]

I try to think otherwise, but I have never been blessed with a miracle, nor have I ever encountered anything remotely close to a supernatural experience, so I do not believe in afterlife of any form, or any higher beings.  I try hard to open my mind and my soul, but I can't seem to grasp what most 'religious' people find easy to grasp.  I'm ashamed to be an athiest 

You dont have to be religous to believe in something higher than what we can percieve...

[prometheus]

Not only do I not believe that, but I do not want to believe it either...

That was my point. People for some reason can't believe it. You may say that you don't believe that, and do not want to believe it either, but that's just my point.

[ted]

This is a repeat of a recent topic

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,16922.0.html

As I said there, I find it very difficult to see how consciousness could survive death. However, there is nothing to stop us passing on to the interesting question of whether harm or benefit accrues from an assumption that it does. Many fundamentally good people, in the humanitarian sense, who may otherwise despair, get comfort and direction from basing their lives on such a premise. On the other hand, if such ideas lead to abusing the world, animals and other people because of an imagined paradise later on, or living a life in constant fear of eternal torment, then the situation is clearly bad.

I do not base my life on such assumptions for reasons I have stated elsewhere. I do not need either threat or reward to try, not always successfully of course,  to implement kindness and decency. However, neither do I wish to set about attacking the dreams of those whose belief in a heaven, however logically impossible, gives them cause for hope and helps them cope in this life. I can see very little merit at all in holding a belief in a hell; to me that is totally negative.  

[tac-tics]

We never die. Only other people. Whenever we would be killed, instead, the world changes course to avoid death.

Think about it. When was the last time you remember yourself dying? Never right? Think about it for a bit 

[henrah]

Hell is probably invented by the church. It does not exist in the old testament.

This is much like the American government, where they use fear to get people to conform. I can see this working, as I have seen/hear many christians saying "If you disobey the ten commandments and sin you will go to hell" and obviously hell is a place where nobody would want to go, therefore they conform to avoid it. The American government used this to justify there attacks on just about anybody, saying "If we didn't bomb them first, they would have bombed us" which is true, but isn't just as there are many methods to stop someone bombing you, including advanced defence techniques (of which I am sure there are some weapons that can stop a bomb/missile in midair way before it lands.)
Henrah

[musik_man]

Correct me of im wrong, but I just heard that Jesus actually never taught that if you are good you go to heaven after you die... That belief was actually brought into play many years later....

Jesus never taught that, and neither does the Church.  What the church does teach is that one can go to heaven through God's grace and God's grace alone.  Being good won't help you at all.  And Jesus mentions heaven and hell many times. 

I can't think of any heaven/hell mentions from the OT off the top of my head.  As I understand it, there was disagreement between Jews on this point.

[pianolearner]

We never die. Only other people. Whenever we would be killed, instead, the world changes course to avoid death.

Think about it. When was the last time you remember yourself dying? Never right? Think about it for a bit 

Nobody remembers falling asleep. You only realise you fell asleep after you wake up. In the same way, nobody will remember dying. We could all be dead and this is what it is like. Think about it for a bit 

[nanabush]

O god, that's messed up.

[thalbergmad]

Think about it. When was the last time you remember yourself dying? Never right?

About 2 months ago, when i went for hypnotic regression.

I fought at the Battle of Naseby in 1646 and got gangrene from a pike wound.

[prometheus]

You cannot be dead. I mean, after you die you are no longer. So if you do no longer exist you cannot do anyhting. This means you cannot be dead either.

I always laugh when people say that one can only find out what happens after death when you die. But this is just not the case, at least not so when there is no afterlife. I mean, it is kind of like falling into the event horizon of a black hole. It never really seems to happen. The closer you get to death the less you exist. You will just blow out of existence before you can perceive what happens. Naturally you cannot experience the lack of your own existence.

[henrah]

I was thinking about the universe expanding, and that if it was expanding at the speed of light and we built a ship that could travel faster than the speed of light, what would happen if you went past the point which the universe was expanding, i.e. where it hadn't expanded into. Would it be like prometheus said, "You can't experience the lack of your own existence"?

If so, would it happen as soon as the front part of the ship reached the unexpanded space (i.e. the whole ship would disappear) or would it run through the ship? If it's the latter, you would surely see it happening if you are looking towards the front of the ship, but what would you see? Would you see nothing? And if so, what is nothing? Is it pure black, pure white? Would it cloud the senses? And what if you saw it go through someone in front of you, and they were lying down? Would their head first disappear, then the rest of their body as it travels down them?

My head is spinning :\
Henrah

[johnny-boy]

It's a very complex process, but I've been advised "from the grave" not to give these secrets away.

I will tell you this. I hope this satisfies your curiosity.

Any specific questions on this subject I'd be glad to answer in detail, if not at all

I hope I’ve shed some light on the subject of “death” – and answered all your questions.

Best, John

[berrt]

Or maybe nothing happens....

We all become decomposers...

[icarus89]

I try to think otherwise, but I have never been blessed with a miracle, nor have I ever encountered anything remotely close to a supernatural experience, so I do not believe in afterlife of any form, or any higher beings. I try hard to open my mind and my soul, but I can't seem to grasp what most 'religious' people find easy to grasp. I'm ashamed to be an athiest

I don't think those so-called "miracles" are really supernatural. I never really had
an experience that defies the physical laws of this universe either. However, if you really think about it, don't you think the mere existence of self is supernatural? If Carl Sagan was right... our universe must've banged for literally "infinite" number of times. This, obviously, just don't work. If time isa self-existent, and a never ending thing, then there would be nothing just due to the smallest possibility of a state where there's nothing. In another words, if our current universe started to contract to a single point, and didn't bang - there would be nothing after that.
To answer the question posted here, I think it vital to define death. From what we know, death occurs when an organism ends the functions that sustain its life.
Therefore, if there's something more than a body to humans, there will still be you; but if you are just a body, you will no longer be - not to mention that, you actually are not really a "self" if you believe that you are just a body, even when you are alive. Think about it, if you are a result of complete randomness, and that you are just a bunch of chemicals... what difference is there between you and a thoughtless worm, or a rock, or an atom?

So the answer for your question... if there is not a soul, then death wouldn't be much different from the state you are in now - for you are an illusion ,after all. But if there is a soul, you will only know it when you are dead. LoL.

[pianistimo]

there's a place in the bible that says 'come my people, enter into your rooms.'  also, we know that Christ is the firstfruits of those that are dead, and at his second coming, those who are dead will rise first (and then those who are alive at his coming will 'meet him in the clouds').  he is returning to earth, btw, as i read it - to set up his kingdom on this earth.  he is returning with his saints. 

as i read the bible - if Christ is the firstfruits of them that are dead - then noone has risen before Christ and even David is still dead as Paul or one of the Apostles pointed out.  the 'rooms' that God refers to in the bible may be a place that God keeps us all (reserved for either the first ressurrection - which is for the millenium rule of God 1000 years and beyond - and they will be raised 'incorruptible').  the second ressurrection of the dead is mentioned in revelations as a ressurrection to judgement.  people will be judged out of the books that are opened on them.  if you realize already right now that you are a sinner - your sins are thrown as far as east is from west.  that's a miracle right there!  if you sincerely believe this is possible - you have a chance not to be judged by the law instead of Christ!!!!  Go for Christ!

[lisztisforkids]

  Go for Christ!

Its to bad that Jesus is so misintereprted these days... Otherwise I root for the guy.. And also its to bad the Bible is a fake.

[anekdote]

There is nothing after death.

[rimv2]

There is nothing after death.

When we die all we do is live.

Each moment in life is repeated infinitely many times.

We perceive actions as happening in a sequential manner.

But we everything we do in life has been done already and will be done again.

Get it right the first time or repeat it wrong for all eternity.

This is the difference between heaven and hell.

[lisztisforkids]

There is nothing after death.

Can you prove it?

[anekdote]

Can you prove it?

No, but can you prove the contrary?

[henrah]

Then both nothing and something happens after death, which is a paradox as nothing can't happen with something happening. This means that neither nothing nor something happens after death, which means that it's in the general area between them. This means that nothing could possibly happen whereas something also could possibly happen, which means that after death either something will happen, or nothing will happen.


And this post hasn't gotten us anywhere

[gilad]

yes i believe the fact that we're people and alive means we are sucking things out our arshes.

[prometheus]

Can you prove it?

There is no burden of proof to prove nothing. I hope you were joking. How can you prove nothing?

[johnny-boy]

Accepting the fact that we do presently exist, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of an existence after death. It's rather illogical to think our lives were for naught, unless in fact, we're living for a higher being’s entertainment.

Bottom line; if we can come into existence once, it couldn’t happen again.

John

[lisztisforkids]

There is no burden of proof to prove nothing. I hope you were joking. How can you prove nothing?

I understand your logic, but how do you know there is nothing? Rational thinking ends at questions like these...


Atheist have it easy.  While they deny all spirtualnes and go about with there lives, I am forced to grapple everyday with such deep questions.

[prometheus]

It's not that easy. I have to try way harder to be spiritual.

[queenrock]

There is no such thing as nothing. I mean try and imagine it, no didn't think you could. And the answer to what happens when we die is quite simply we get buried or cremated and eventually we just turn into energy in the soil and the life cycle continues.

[lisztisforkids]

I can think of a few thousand reasons to beleive in some kind of life after death. But I cant think of one reason that says nothing happens after death...

[prometheus]

Queenrock, you are right. After we die 'nothing' doesn't happen. What happens is known to everyone. And we can prove this. We know about buring, cremation, decomposition, etc. No one would ask for any proof for this.

The whole question about what happens origionates from the assumption that the soul exists. And there is nothing to suggest that it does exist.

[prometheus]

I can think of a few thousand reasons to beleive in some kind of life after death. But I cant think of one reason that says nothing happens after death...

You are talking about two thinks. A reason to believe something is meaningless. You need to know something. I mean, the fact that you would like to see your parents again is a reason to believe in life after death. It doesn't tell anyone anything about dying or death itself.

If there are no reasons or no believes you are left with nothing. You already admitted that this is not logical but again you put the burden of proof on the wrong side. If you want to prove nothing you do not need to prove anything so that means no proof is needed.

[henrah]

If you want to prove nothing you do not need to prove anything so that means no proof is needed.

Therefore ending this topic, right?


Or is there something else.... *suspicious eye movements*

[lisztisforkids]

The whole question about what happens origionates from the assumption that the soul exists. And there is nothing to suggest that it does exist.

There is nothing to suggest that it does not exist.  So it is open to interpertation. You cannot 'prove' either way if the soul exist or not. So it would be more rational if you would say "The soul might exist, there might be in afterlife.". Its not rational to deny what we havent seen yet, but equally not rational to accept what we haven seen yet either. We can only speculate.


In fact, I beleive that Art and Music is what proves that the soul does exist.  Its what really seperates us from the rest of the animals and makes humans beings unique.

[prometheus]

No. When I say that something that cannot be proven might exist then I must say everything might exist. Including little dancing pink elephants in my refrigerator that turn invisible when I open it.

I am not saying it has been proven that a soul does not exist. I say there is nothing that indicates it exists and therefore I assume it does not exist. It is called Occam's Razor.


As for humans as unique creatures. We are unique because of our mental abilities. We know our mental abilities originate from our brains. We know humans have unique brains, they are physically unique, the unique properties of the brain explain why it we have unique mental properties. We may not know in detail how the brain works, but we do know we can do unique things because of our brain. If you want to call our brain our soul, fine.

[lisztisforkids]

As for humans as unique creatures. We are unique because of our mental abilities. We know our mental abilities originate from our brains. We know humans have unique brains, they are physically unique, the unique properties of the brain explain why it we have unique mental properties. We may not know in detail how the brain works, but we do know we can do unique things because of our brain. If you want to call our brain our soul, fine.

I am not saying our brain is our soul..... I am saying our emotions, feelings, our what is what makes up our soul..  Art is were the logical and the illogical merge together.It is Art that allows us to be unique, animals uch as monkeys use tools, just because we have electron microscopes and they use sticks and stones does not make us hardly any superior in that respect. It just means we are a little more evolved than they are.

But nothing on planet earth but humans has Art... Art has been with us since before we airplanes, and it will be there also when the human race comes to an end.

[henrah]

My kitten brings in a freshly mawled skinless rabbit, and lays it down. She then starts moving it around, until it is in perfect position; takes away bits she doesn't want us to see, and leaves the bits she does. She also sometimes chooses on a leaf or two. This is her art.


Although really she is just moving it into the perfect position to be unnoticed and stepped on. But still: if she appreciates it, and wants us to marvel at it, it is art. It can also be called pride, but that is only in terms of her being proud of it, and not displaying it in a certain way for us to see and discuss upon.
Henrah

[gyzzzmo]

If we die, we just get burried (and rot away) or get cremated (squized in a little pot).

To my opinion whole religion is based on:
A) The inability of many people to believe we're not much more than other organisms in the universe.
B) our constant search on sollutions and understandings. If we dont understand lightning, we make up some god (Wodan i believe).

Gyzzzmo

[queenrock]

If we die, we just get burried (and rot away) or get cremated (squized in a little pot).

To my opinion whole religion is based on:
A) The inability of many people to believe we're not much more than other organisms in the universe.
B) our constant search on sollutions and understandings. If we dont understand lightning, we make up some god (Wodan i believe).

Gyzzzmo

I absolutely agree.

[johnny-boy]

I guess it all boils down to pessimism verses optimism.

I've always been an optimist. I believe in the old proverb “One is only as happy or unhappy as one can imagine”.  If one chooses “unhappy” one will have to live with that frame of mind. You have my sympathy.

Best, John

[prometheus]

What has that got to do with the subject, I do not understand.

[gilad]

i believe a more imprtant thng to concentrate on is- what happens when we live.

[johnny-boy]

What has that got to do with the subject, I do not understand.

It has everything to do with the subject.

Since no one knows what happens after death, we have a choice to believe in the positive or the negative. You can either believe in life after death or that we just rot away never to exist again. One’s “sense of life” determines one’s outlook.

Don't cloud my sunshine.

Best, John

[prometheus]

That's not a very buddhist idea...


Rotting away after death is only as worse as you imagine it to be.


Personally, I much rather rot away than live an eternity.


Also, buddhism says not to believe in things because thay way you base your happiness on a belief, a construction. When that construction turns out to be wrong you are unhappy. This is not the way to enlightenment.

Furthermore, we know exactly what happens after death, as pointed out before.

[johnny-boy]

"That's not a very buddhist idea..."
I'm not a Buddhist, thank God!

"Furthermore, we know exactly what happens after death, as pointed out before" - prometheus

Oh.. You already went through the process?

"Personally, I much rather rot away than live an eternity

I guess that removes all doubt pertaining to your "sense of life". I love life and I'd be pickled pink if it last forever.

"Also, buddhism says not to believe in things because thay way you base your happiness on a belief, a construction"

Like Buddhism.

I wouldn't believe everything you read. You should think for yourself sometimes.

John

[prometheus]

Maybe you should read some more about subjects so that you aren't locked into your own way of thinking.

Oh.. You already went through the process?

I was refering to being buried or being cremated. The idea that more things need to be explained are all based on assumptions that are not backed up by observations. There is nothing to be explained about death itself.

[johnny-boy]

"Maybe you should read some more about subjects so that you aren't locked into your own way of thinking"

Maybe you should do less reading and more thinking on your own.

John

[henrah]

Maybe you should both agree on this: we don't know jack. And if we did know him, he wouldn't get us very far.


Prometheus, surely your statement about buddhism will make every buddhist lose faith in their religion, thus not being a buddhist any more? So they made their own downfall really.
Henrah