Huge piano --> small room?

[Waldszenen]

Out of curiosity, what would happen if you shoved a 9' concert grand (or similar) into a standard-sized living room, not too big? Would it be way too loud to play?

[yamaha2006]

I think yes...
Unfortunately the room will wave meanwhile you're playing the piano...
and you may find it disgusting...

When i tried a Bösendorfer in London, it was in a quite small room and I found this concert grand very "deaf".

So be careful...

[cy_shuster]

Not necessarily.  A hallmark of a quality piano of any size is its precise regulation, which means you have great control to play pianissimo.  Some spinets can't be played softer than "mf".  Try it on your piano: see how soft a scale you can play without notes dropping out.

--Cy--

[gyzzzmo]

Lately i played a big Stein way in a small room. Though the room was quite high, much of the sound was lost.

[alzado]

This issue has come up on the forum before.  It is tricky, and you may get a variety of opinions.

It was long my impression that a full sized concert grand must stand out -- and be clearly heard -- when playing against an entire symphony orchestra.  This is quite common when one listens to certain parts of the Tchaikovsky First or -- most concertos, really. 

So a full-sized concert grand must be capable of loud and penetrating effects.  HOWEVER, as has been stated, these pianos offer great control.  One need not play them FF if one does not want to.  They have a richness and resonance in the baritone and bass registers that is unmatched, because of their great string length.

Another issue entirely --   esthetics.  A concert grand is a beautiful and very expensive instrument.  Do you want to cram it into a small living room?  Would probably look like hell.

Just my $0.02.

[pianistimo]

i'd rather see a piano in a small livingroom than a couch and tv.  guess it depends on whom you share the house with.  if i walked into someone's house and they had a 9 foot piano in the livingroom - i think i'd stay forever. 

my husband promised me a bosendorfer (joking, i guess) when i married him.  he didn't have to make such huge promises- but he like the way my face looked when he said it.  did i believe him - sort of but not really.  we go to piano stores and just look sometimes.  i decided one with a huge scratch on the lid just wasn't it.  i want a brand new one.  untouched by other human hands.  not a rework of  10 -15 years.  not a salvage piano.  one that is similar to a car remake (not knowing what kind and how many accidents it's been in).  one that has no cigarette burns.  one that plays with precision and well - basically a $50,000 + piano.  *slight call - thalbergmad - didn't you say you were filthyrich?  can you spare apiano for my livingroom?  of course, then my husband would feel outdone and then i would be left with the piano and no husband.  hmmm.  better take the husband.  he works in the bedroom too.

[steve jones]

Tough question, as much of it depends on your own personal criteria.

Myself, I would not like to have a huge grand in an inadequate room. Id be constantly frustated at having such a wonder instrument and not being able to hear it in its full glory due to acoustics. It would be a bit like taking a Ferrari down to the supermarket, when it really belongs on the racing circuit!

Infact, I have a similar situation myself - a huge Marshall stack sitting in the corner of my studio, but not opportunity to play the thing. Its too loud for the room which means it doesnt sound good and it is difficult to play, annoys EVERYONE in the local visinity etc. I end up playing on a small practice setup instead.

So if it were me, I'd save my money, get a high quality upright, then keep the extra cash in an account for the day that I had a space to do the instrument justice. But ofcourse, only you know what is best for you.

SJ

[alzado]

Perhaps we are lost in a world of fantasy here.

Somehow there's the impression given here that a huge piano is "better" than a smaller piano.

I don't know.  A concert grand is intended for a certain purpose.  A parlor-sized grand is intended for a certain purpose as well.  They may not be the same.

This reminds me of the nitwits I encounter every day in parking lots around this city -- a huge vehicle pulls into the next space and makes it hard for me to open my door.  Lincoln Navigator, Ford Expedition, etc.  About 6,000 lbs. of steel propelled at 13 mpg.  Turns out, it's a very petite little woman alone, running in to get a loaf of bread. 

Horowitz had a 9-foot Steinway grand in his apartment for many years, but that was because he was a concert pianist.  That's the instrument he played on tour.

Does "Joe Schmuck" out there have to have a concert grand to play "Fur Elisa?"  Perhaps he does, if he is just one more vulgar "conspicuous consumer."  He probably has a Lincoln Navigator in his garage, as well.  Or worse, a Hummer.

This is really "beer and pretzels" thinking.  The biggest, the most expensive . . .  that's where it's at.    This is very "American" thinking. 

Any Europeans out there?  Would you want a concert grand in a small living room?

[yamaha2006]

I agree with azaldo.
this is ridiculous !!

An upright will sound better in a small room than a 9' !

[alwaystheangel]

big piano + small room = bad idea

The sound warbles, sounds out of tune and like crap.

[gfiore]

There is not a problem with a large grand in a small room. A larger grand can be palyed with more sensitivity regarding dynamics because their actions are more controlable. The room can be voiced for the piano, and the piano can also be voiced to the room. I have many customers with large grands in small rooms, there is'nt any problem, and they all sound great.

[pianowelsh]

I had 1:1 lessons in a room with a large Yamaha grand and a steinway B the room was not more than 12' x 18' and with a low ceiling and was basically a stone box. that was tough with your teacher demanding you to play softer and softer and not use the soft pedal. I tell you playing strongly gave you a headache for sustained periods - especially with both pianos going for concerto practice. What was difficult was adjusting to a concert room directly afterwards because your pedalling and strength of playing had to change completely - most disconcerting.  I dont recommend a large instrument in a small room unless you are forced into it. for a room the size I described I dont think you should have anything bigger than a 5'6'' grand and only 1!

[bartolomeo_]

Most of the piano profs I know have 9' instruments in their studios, which tend to be on the small side.  Though the instrument won't sound the same as it would on a concert stage, it's still great.  It becomes important to have some sort of acoustic treatment so that the room is not excessively live.

My living room is around 15x15 and I have a 6' grand.  It's plenty loud (especially when my kids practice - one of them is still at the age where she is impressed by volume), but can be played softly.

A tech can needle down the hammers if necessary as well.  If done with care the character of the instrument is retained while the overall volume is lowered.

[kamike]

My unequivocal answer is to buy and cram as big of a grand piano as you can possibly afford into your space.   Not buying a large grand piano simply because of the opinion that it is too loud is a mistake.  For many of us the grand piano is the single most important and valuable material thing that we buy in our lifetime.  If one can afford it, the loudness issue is not a significant factor.

A high-quality grand piano can be played delicately and as soft as any other piano.  The joy of a really good action, the long sustain, and quality of deep bass and clear treble is what you buy in a grand piano, not the just volume.  Surely a large concert grand can generate volume but so can  any generic cheap stereo system.  We simply need not turn the volume up that high.

There are always practical considerations in the purchase, but loudness should not be one of them.  If loundess was really an issue then one should consider a silent action or perhaps a digital piano with earphones.

In my opinion, speaking from my experience, the only draw back to owning and playing a fine grand piano every day is that it is a bummer to be obligated to play bad pianos for others.  So I suppose a more legitimate excuse for not buying a grand piano, compared to the volume "issue," is that one wouldn't want to be spoiled.

Just my 2-cents here.

[alzado]

bartlemeo writes that his piano teachers have a 9' in their small studios.  He then tries to make the case that this is sensible by explaining that he has a 6' grand in a 15 x 15 living room.

This is very illogical.  A 15 x 15 room would normally be quite a bit larger than a teacher's studio, and a 6' piano will not be comparable to a full concert grand (9') in this situation.

As for kamike, I do strongly suspect that he is speaking "theoretically," imagining that a huge piano in a small room -- in his speculation -- would be just fine.  His posting does not ring of any direct experience.  He does say at one point, "speaking from my experience," but somehow I still think he is just speculating.  And his remark, "if one can afford it," suggests the advantage of bragging rights or snob appeal to owning a big grand, not that it is well suited to a small studio.

In this question, we do want people who have actually experienced this situation.  For me, pianowelch has had direct (and unhappy) experience and really has something intelligent to say.

alwaystheangel also seems to know what he/she is actually talking about.

[grandpianoguy]

In my living room, which is about 30 feet long by 17 feet wide with 10 foot ceilings (so spacious but not immense) I have two Steinway grands: a NY Model D and a Hamburg Model C.  Surprisingly, with the lid up, the 7'6" C is just too loud for the room, having a more brilliant sound than the 9' D. But the D sounds great with the lid open--big sound but not overbearing. 

Still, I usually play with the lids closed on both pianos.  You can definitely have too much of a good thing.

By the way, I got the D because I wanted that extra richness in the bass, and also I wanted a "NY Steinway" sound to complement the German piano.  Sometimes, though, I worry that those oceanic bass notes will start a series of sympathetic vibrations that will crack the foundation of my house and maybe even cause an earthquake.   

[grandpianoguy]

Postscript to my message above:

I have to agree with the previous posts about regulation and voicing being more important than size.  A perfectly regulated and evenly voiced concert grand will be capable of softer pianissimi than a clunky old Acrosonic.  All the invidious comparisons to SUV owners aside (I hate SUVs and would never own one), the advantage of a larger piano is that, all else being equal,  it does afford greater sensitivity and control over dynamics, including a wider range of dynamics and colors, than does a smaller piano.  Having said that, I don't think I'd put a concert grand in a room any smaller than where I have mine now.  Not only would it look out of place, like a whale in an aquarium, but there wouldn't be room for the sound to expand and develop.

[kamike]

Alzado
I apologize for the impression that perhaps there were some snobbery involved with my reply.    There was no intention of bragging.  I was just stating the facts from my experience.  I do own, and play, a Bluthner model II, 7'-8" (238 cm) tucked away in my modest living room.  I do not own this fine instrument for bragging rights or for it's beauty.  I own it because it makes my heart sing.  It was a once-in-a lifetime purchase.  It is a far better piano that I will ever be a pianist.  The volume is not an issue with me.  Perhaps it would be with you.

While I am certainly no concert pianist (I'm just a 50+ year-old guy with a day-job who tries to play some classical music for his own enjoyment) and never will be, I have played either the piano or pipe organ for most of my life. 43 years.  I have experienced truly grand, LOUD, music on very large instruments (including large pipe organs in small concert halls and churches) so I have experience with that as well.  It is my opinion that one can play loudly on a small cheap upright or on a large expensive grand piano.  It is also my experience that one can also play very softly with a concert grand. 

I still am confused as to why anyone would have problems with a quality grand piano anywhere unless they had very sensitive hearing (i.e. pain when hearing normally loud music).   I also recognize that playing softly is not necessarily easy or natural.  It took a lot of practice for me to even approach the basics of the ability to play softly.  I think learning how to play softly and being in control of the keyboard can be difficult for some - it is for me.   So perhaps there is some confusion regarding whether it is the piano, or the pianist, who has the difficulty here with a grand piano in a small room.

Cheers.

[alwaystheangel]

I didn't have time when I first posted to explain, but in my experience, even an upright in a small room can cause problems.  I have a friend with an upright in a room that is probably 4X5, the piano, buzzes like a bee, the sound is warped, and sounds out of tune. It's awful. I can't see how having a grand piano crammed into a small room could sound any good, although a musician could still benefit from the touch of a grand which is so much more superior to that of a keyboard or upright.

[thetrojanhorse]

I think the real question is: Are you taking delivery of a Bosendorfer Imperial to your NY 1 bedroom apartment?

If not, then dont worry about it.

Trojan

[alzado]

kamike--

Glad you have this fine piano and I sympathize with your delight in playing it. 

But as far as your confusion as to why persons would find your decision a bit strange . . .

Try these: 

1.  Wear a tuxedo to eat at a hot dog stand.

2.  Feed your dog off of the finest Haviland china.

3.  Use Webster's Third International as your pocket dictionary.


These are all intended to suggest a lack of fit and proportion.

I rest my case.

[pianistimo]

who has a bosendorfer imperial in their one bedroom ny apartment?  i'd say that's better than buying a st. bernard puppy.