Alternate history: What if Jesus wasent crucified?

[meisel]

Theres one thing im curious about... Why did Jesus die for our sins? I mean, why didnt he just give people salvation to begin with? Why this divided history? What actually happened to people who were born before Christ?

[lisztisforkids]

Theres one thing im curious about... Why did Jesus die for our sins? I mean, why didnt he just give people salvation to begin with? Why this divided history? What actually happened to people who were born before Christ?

People like Pianistimo talk like theire happy that Jesus was crucified.

[prometheus]

Every Christian is.

Adam and Eve committed the 'original sin', making every human born in sin.

So God reincarnated himself as Jesus and he humiliated, tortured and then crucified himself so that all sins, also future sins which future people didn't even choose to make yet, were forgiven.

[meisel]

Whats the point?

They say that Jesus died for our sins. But who defined sin? God. So doesnt that mean that Jesus died for God? Instead of giving amnesty he killed his son. Whats the good in that....?

I just dont see the good deed in killing in a most barbaric way. I dont see this action (and world in general) as good as God is supposed to be.

[prometheus]

Yes, it is absurd. God didn't kill his son. God is the father, the spirit and the son. So God killed himself.

If you look back at the actual sin. First he lied to Adam and Eve about eating from the tree of wisdom. Then they ate from the tree anyway. And what happened? They learned about good and evil, they gained free will. What a bad thing indeed!

Then God had to throw them out of the garden of Eden because if they would eat from the tree of life also, they would become 'like them', both immortal and wise.

So then god send them to earth. He punished them because from now on they would have physical bodies, which they would need to survive on earth, meaning they would know pain, hunger, and all other kinds of suffering.

I once read a SF novel about a cult that worshipped the power of the atomic bomb. This reminded me of christians since they use one of the most hidious torture machines from ancient time as their symbol. They worship the cross and its torture. So in the future people can worship the atom bomb without realising that the atom bomb is actually a bad thing. I wonder if this inspired the auteur.

[meisel]

Yeah, i know that he killed himself, but the killing still actually happened, and is a symbol. As a kid i remember being taught that Jesus died on a cross for our sake. The picture/figure of a dying Jesus hanging on a cross, bloody and tormented wasnt a pretty sight for a seven year old kid. I was shown from a movie i think,  that Jesus begged God to spare him, but God wouldnt let him. Jesus was naturally pictured as a human being, though a "godly human". At least that was my impression at that time.

Instead of killing Jesus, i can think of a better way. How about if Jesus had a torch, which he lifted, then he said something like "You are all forgiven, You are all children of God", and then the whole sky went red, all over the world. Then he vanished.

In that way, the symbol of christianity would perhaps be the torch, and not a torture/execution machine. And people wouldnt torture themselves during easter (at least some do). And the jews wouldnt be blamed for killing Jesus.

The absolutely best way would of course be to just skip this world and send us all to heaven.

[pianistimo]

the angels were created that way - immortal - and look what they did.  they betrayed God.  1/3 fell away.

if we were created immortal, we'd have more evil in the universe than exists already.  but, as God would have it - we are physical (adam and eve did not 'come down to earth').  satan came down and is going further down.  he will be bound 1000 years, loosed for a while after the millenium (1000 year reign of Christ), and then bound again and thrown into the abyss. 

it's interesting how much certain composers understand and identify with faust.  he has been and always will be a deceiver.  whether it is over the garden of eden and the perfect beginning that God made, his plan of salvation, or over the final days of this earth as we know it.  he seems to perfectly understand - and try to thwart people from realizing the great potential we have as HUMANS.  not animals.  we have a chance for salvation and rule in the kingdom of God.  but, if we waste our chance - we still may have a chance to be (as king david said in the psalms ) a doorkeeper.  what christ said in the parables is an analogy to what will be in his kingdom.  the people who have talents and use them will be over 'many cities.'  this implies a degree of maturity in the sense of knowing right and wrong.

what we don't know (which may be how God's spirit hovered over the waters initially - and if the earth was flooded several times - first after an angelic creation - and secondly at the beginning of the known world as we know it).  there may be a truth to an older earth - but, it still doesn't make the grand canyon look like a tectonic plate creation.  tectonic plates wouldn't allow for the gorges that were obviously created by water.  how do you explain the lack of large obstruction to the entire canyon.  that must have been a severe amount of water to force through an area.  that's my belief and it may only be visual right now - but someone help me out.  does it look like a tectonic creation alone?  i don't doubt that a flood and an earthquake could happen simultaneously - but i don't think that it disproves a flood.  thats my opinion (based on faith).

[alejo_90]

pianistimo, I wasn't misinterpreting your words. You clearly said that Jesus isn't coming as a baby this time. Then, how the hell is he supposed to be coming?

And I'm not bashing you at all. I'm just saying some truths about your Church. I don't have any problem with your beliefs, I know I won't change them no matter how hard I try to open you eyes. My big deal is with the Catholic Church in general. I was raised in a catholic school, I know very well how is it like to be someone like you. But I went trough it, and I realised that all those stupid dogmas were a bunch of lies made up by powerful people who wants to control you and other millions of people.

I strongly believe that there's a bigger entity, a "something" that our small minds will never understand, but I don't see it as a christian-catholic, becuase that way of seeing it is simply sick and repressing.

Best Wishes
Alex

[lisztisforkids]

Wow... Pianstimo you dident even come close to try to refute the latest argumesnts, you just kind of rambled. You need to start standing up for what you believe in, and stop being so stupid and rambling.

[pianistimo]

i thought about the latest arguments all day.  how can i know for certain what God was thinking when He created His plan of salvation.  His mind is much bigger and more awesomely thoughtful than mine.  but, i see a phenomenon with His thinking.  he considers sin worthy of death.

nowdays, with revisionist this and that - the death penalty is seen as a horrible way to end someone's life who may have committed a heinous crime (and still the person lived) or a murder (and obviously they died).   but, originally in the ot - we see the idea first of the punishment fitting the crime.  many less murders would be committed if people knew they wouldn't get a free lunch ticket in a prison.  and, yet, we also see the idea of Jesus Christ giving us a second chance - so maybe the people that kill or commit crimes and end up in prison have a chance to hear the gospel and change their lives.  this is always God's way - to help us along - because He sees how imperfect we are and how many times we all make bad choices.  anyway - sin would not be very important to us if we did not see the consequence of our actions.  one of which was to have a Savior die for us. 

[timothy42b]

the angels were created that way - immortal - and look what they did.  they betrayed God.  1/3 fell away.

Sorry, pianisstimo, that's not in the Bible.  That story comes from the Book of Enoch, which was rejected by the early church as not inspired, and never made it into the canon.

Try again. 

[prometheus]

They should make a Hollywood movie about the book of Enoch.

[pianistimo]

try looking at rev. 12:4 "and his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven  (before it was talking about a great red dragon =satan), and threw them to the earth..."  the earth is called satan's domain and his throne is told to be located at 'pergamum' according to rev. 2:13.

we know at the creation that all the angels were created good and perfect.  Job 38:7.  they all 'sang for joy' (job 1:6) 

we are told that satan is real and to 'resist the devil and he will flee from you.'  james 4:7

jude 1:6 says that the evil demons are reserved for judgement.  I cor. 6:3 says that men/women that are judged worthy themselves (through Christ) will judge the angels!

[pianistimo]

isaiah 14 is an interesting read because it describes satan's fall.  obviously before man sinned.  otherwise he wouldn't be the tempter or deciever and be going against what God's word said - and deceiving man/woman out of their inheritance.  to rule.  to be in authority is what he wants - but to have authority with sin as a priority instead of
righteousness.

as i understand 'pergamum' according to this description:

www.luthersen.edu/ckoester/Revelation/Pergamum/Main.htm

satan is always at the center of a world government.  i don't think he's located in turkey.  i think this is a dual meaning - because satan was once at the headquarters of the roman empire (dealing with trade, rulership, etc) and most likely has a similar 'throne' wherever the beginnings and middle and finally the end of the current 'world trade system' is located.  what i find funny is that he bombed himself when he blew up the world trade center.  people don't realize what god they are serving - but the monetary system of this world has the pictures of the rulers that it represents (such as the coin with caesars head)  'give unto caesar the things that are caesars...'

we know that we are taxed heavily...that we have to adhere to a politcal monetary system that is burdensome (especially with identity theft so prevalent), lack of privacy and 'big brotherisms'  - and finally a CONTROL of the entire world economy.  this is not OF GOD.  God isn't controlling like this.  he wanted people to live away from cities.  i think there are many places in the bible that speak of the wickedness of living in cities because of the tendencies to evil when people live on top of one another.

perhaps this all seems like a rant - but in actuality - if you think about it - abraham and many of our forfathers resisted moving into cities and towns and were basically farmers. Jesus disciples were fishermen and those that were familar with the outdoors.  they were familiar with the entire region because they walked it with Jesus. 

as i understand satan, he is bringing this world to a point of 'desperation' through monetary means.  in the end, he wants us to WORSHIP him (the BEAST power) which is guided by a man who will be a personification of evil (SATAN) and who will only allow people to buy and sell if they worship him.  this could easily be done over the internet and i don't doubt that it will come to pass.  rev. 13:15 says:

'and he performs great signs so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.  and he decieves those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast (satan), telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life (pretending to be Christ, he is anti-christ - christ having been pierced by a sword and come to life by ressurrection).'

'and there was given to him to give breath to the image (computer image?) of the beast, that the image of the beast might even speak and cause as many as do NOT worship the image of the beast to be killed.  and he causes all, the small and the great, the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their RIGHT HAND, or on their forehead (what they do and what they think is controlled by this beast), and he provides that no one should be able to buy or sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.'

'here is wisdom (always listen to that!).  let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man (so it is possibly the letter numbers or the number assigned to hiM); and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.'  if this beast power is associated also with religious power - we know that will be the reason fo rthe REQUESTEd worship as well as monetary system.  in our democratic society we are not used to worshipping whoever is loaning us money at the bank.  so the idea of adding in worship must mean that a RELiGION is at the head of all this.'  this religion is called, in revelation 17:5 'a mystery, babylon the great, the mother of harlots and of the abominations of the earth.'  this church is DRUNK with the blood of saints, and with the blood of witnesses of Jesus.'

if you go on further in revelations 17:9 'here is the mind of wisdom (listen!) the seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings (past rulers of this religious/political union); five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes he must remain a little while... and the ten horns which you saw are TEN KINGS, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour (a sudden revival).  these have one purpose and they give their power and authority to the beast (SATAN).  these will wage war with the lamb (Christ) and Christ will overcome them, because he is Lord of Lords and King of Kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.'

[rob47]

isaiah 14 is an interesting read because it describes satan's fall.  obviously before man sinned.  otherwise he wouldn't be the tempter or deciever and be going against what God's word said - and deceiving man/woman out of their inheritance.  to rule.  to be in authority is what he wants - but to have authority with sin as a priority instead of righteousness not supposed to be taken literally.


"Look, maybe pianistimo does believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense, and maybe the Bible is all made up, but pianistimo has a great life and a great family, and she has the Bible to thank for that. The truth is, she doesn't care if someone made it all up, because what the church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people. And even though people on this forum might think that's stupid, she still chooses to believe in it. All she ever did was try to be our friend, but we're so high and mighty we couldn't look past her religion and just be her friend back. We've got a lot of growing up to do, buddies. Suck my balls"

 

[soliloquy]

I hate people who quote the bible and tell me what it means.  James *** Joyce is more coherent and open to less interpretation that 99.9999% of every damn line in that book.  I'm sure there was such a person as "Jesus" and that he was indeed crucified, which back in those times was a common form of execution.  Why else would so many people write about it?  I'm an Atheist, so I don't believe Jesus was the son of God, but it wouldn't make any sense to make up some story about Jesus being crucified.  I'd EASILY believe Jesus was some prophet though (technically that's blasphemy but w/e), so maybe he convinced himself that he could absolve people by sacrificing himself.  But c'mon; we've all seen "documentary" type movies.  Has anyone here seen JFK?  It's a GREAT movie, and sort of based on real life events, but you know there's some filler material in there to spice the story up and to make it all seen more believable.  You think this device was non-existant back then?  I mean, the Bible isn't quite the most "true to life" book out there.  Floods that cover the Earth while a solitary boat is filled with 2 of every animal and a big family of people floats around for 40 days?  Do you know how many species of ants there are?  Like, tens of millions.  I seriously doubt some dude named Noah went out and collected 2 of every species of ant, including ones indiginous to places all over the globe.  And there would always be animals that would be unable to survive in a fixed climate like that.  Do you think they put all the arctic wildlife on half the boat and that half was magically cold?  There's a lot of story-telling in the Bible that any rational person knows is obviously not true; lots of veiled, cryptic symbolism too.


So, my vote is that there was some dude named Jesus who thought he was a prophet and convinced a lot of his friends, then was executed and said something along the lines of him dying absolves everyone's sins, then his buddies, who happened to write a good chunk of the Bible, just went along writing the story as they knew it; as this Jesus guy truly being the son of God.  Seems like the most logical explanation to me.

[pianistimo]

don't be deceived.

this is what i truly believe and how i understand the bible.  in no way do i feel that 9/11 was funny but i do feel that God only allows Satan so much power and he was only allowed at that time to hit the trade center - which is probably a very limited location compared to his hit lists now.  if the bible is accurate - which i believe it is - the 'tribulation' is not somethat that God is unaware of  satan starting in our times.  the tribulation is not about happy families for christians.  it is told to us ahead of time that we may be headed for persecution because it has happened all down through the ages.  the only thing is, this time Christ will stop it before the entire earth is destroyed.  we are told the war will begin in the middle east - but not before we are taken 'captive' monetarily by a world trade system.  which seems to be the case already.  some of us will physically suffer and some will be allowed to 'flee on a day other than the Sabbath.'  why would Christ say 'pray that your flight not be in the winter on the Sabbath.'  was he only speaking to jews?  NO.  but, he WAS speaking to ALL THOSE IN JERUSALEM.  the holy capital that will be the world's capital int he milleneum.  also, there are many Christians who are moved by the spirit to return to jerusalem and witness the return of Christ to the mount of olives.  it may seem like 'geekness' to people now, but just as noah was aware of God's plans and believed him and it was counted to him as righteousness - we have a lot with jerusalem too.  it is called 'the city of PEACE.'  is there any city like it?  will there be another city that is defended by God like it?  we are told before His coming the city will be divided in two.  seems that way right now.  what is left?  the RETURN OF CHRIST!  the husbandman is patient for the 'rains' (everything that has to occur to obtain the greatest crop of salvation).  Christ said that he didn't come to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.  much different than the flood - the saved will not just be one family (but one family of God). 

[soliloquy]

don't be deceived.

By what?

[pianistimo]

by the way things appear.  things do not always appear as they really are.

for instance, we don't wake up and think 'oh, i'm naked.'  we don't see our sin.  we might be naked in the morning - but if we have our pj's on we're not aware of any other nakedness.  but, we are told int he bible that if we don't repent - spiritually we will be without clothing.  seems ok in private - but not in public.  would you want to appear before Christ naked and ashamed.  that's what he says will happen to those who don't listen to His warnings.

the parable of the ten virgins is similar.  ten had lamps that were full of oil (the holy spirit) and ten had to go find oil AT THE LAST MINUTE.  the doors were shut to the bridal feast - and the enjoyment went to those who had prepared for the supper.

[soliloquy]

You ever play Roulette?  You're betting against the wheel.

Things generally are exactly the way they appear.  You choose to believe what you believe because you prefer it, despite logic, which you admit.  You believe in God despite "how it seems".  Are you familiar with the term "argumentum ad consequentiam"?  it is a form of illogic.  Let me show you:

    If P, then Q will occur.
    Q is desirable/undesirable.
    Therefore, P is true/false.

    The belief in P leads to Q.
    Q is a desirable/undesirable.
    Therefore, P is true/false.

    If P, then Q will occur.
    Q is desirable.
    Therefore, P is true.


God is desirable to you, therefor it is true.  This is a form of logical fallacy.  How bout "argumentum ad metam"?  This is another illogic, which is similar:

    Either P or Q
    Q is fearsome
    Therefore, P is true.


A universe devoid of God or afterlife is fearful, therefor there is a God.  I have no problem with you believing what you want.  Go for it.  But I don't think it is fair for you to try to convince other people you're right when your argument defies logic, science and common sense.  Also, the prophecies of the Book of Revelations have come true many times in the past, and I don't see brimstone.  Hell, Nostradamus has just as good a winning streak as Revelations; is Nostradamus Jesus in disguise?

[pianistimo]

i respect your logic and find myself caught in the dillema of 'why was i born?'  i go to 'the piano concerto' class and all i can think of is 'why do all these concertos sound the same?'  they play a little clip and you're supposed to know #1 what concerto it is.  #2 what movement it is #3 opus number if you can remember it.

ok. i'm terrible at things like this.  but, when i listen to the radio and do not feel that i am under pressure or stress - i can usually say, from listening to the middle of a piece - what composer, and what piece (even if i don't get which movement).

i suppose people might say - well, you can sort of deduce who's who in music by their ability to remember.  but, for me, it's a matter of faith.  i figure if it's not 'x' after a while, from little hints and cues, it must be 'y.'  then i start thinking.  yes, it's definately 'y'  (all this with no pressure, mind you).

i beleive God is similarly teaching us.  there's no pressure to get it right immediately.  we take our time comparing and fiddling around with many texts (books).  but as solomon said 'the end of all things is to fear God and keep his commandments.  that's a mite small thing to do.  to obtain salvation for a little respect. 

you might agree with me that there are many types of scholarship - and the more you get into research you can readily pick out the ones that are speaking off the top of their head and haven't proven what they are saying.  well, with the bible that's picking verses out and not 'cross referencing.'  if every Word of God is true - then it must have been true then and true now and true for the future.  if something is predicted to happen (and x, y, z have also been prophecied and come true) then looking from the past to the present and future makes it more believable if prophets were correct in the past.

the coming of Christ was prophicied and happened.  peter was told he would deny Christ three times (so we know that it isn't a matter of our own will - to always be Christian - but one of faith that we realize we are imperfect and succeptible to pressures and temptations).  just because we are imperfect doesn't mean God is.  we can't make that crossover.  what we don't see doesnt' mean that it doesn't exist.  we are used to a rational thought process (rational meaning we can understand it).  what if some things are simply beyond our comprehension?

[soliloquy]

So, would you say these clues you have gotten and used to piece together your perception of reality (one with God) are those that would be in direct contradiction to Quantum Mechanics and Theory of Evolution?  If so, would you agree it is safe to say that one must then decide of they believed in science versus faith in a higher power?  If not, what "clues" are you referring to?

Also, please do not argue in circles by simply repeating yourself and not responding to statements contradictory to your own.  It wastes time and is the opposite of convincing on your part.

[pianistimo]

what does quantum mechanics have to do with evolution?  i'm not being sarcastic, i'm just asking.  after all...i am not a scientist and not a scholar - but a simple person who watches pbs documentaries and pieces together a giant puzzle by continuously repeating attemtping to get one piece to fit properly by getting a hammer.  (using faith - as faith can 'move mountains')

on the other hand, Christ never said the gospel was for the rich or the strongest or the smartest.  it is a simple gospel. love God with all your heart and all your soul and love your neighbor as yourself.  even this is difficutl sometimes, but not impossible for non-scientists.

just so you don't think i'm a complete fool - i do look up things on the internet and have a few friends i could call.  (they're not all christian, btw, but don't deny the possibility of the existence of a God).  i am very interested in what can be found right now in the polar regions now that the ice has melted so much.  there must be some answers that are being found there.  did the earth once have a similar temperature all over it?  was that the reason for the wooly mammoths being able to survive and eat what seemed to be tall grass (left in stomach).  several of those were found in alaska.  also, we have musk oxen that used to pasture in fairbanks, but the wooly mammoths were much bigger and had tusks like elephants.  was this what the bible calls a 'behmoth?'  i am interested in geology and archeology but have no time except to dig through the laundry for miscellaneous lost items.  there must be answers everywhere - but you have to have time to piece together all of the elements of the puzzle and that would take many lifetimes anyway. 

maybe that's why people like me get sidetracked.  i can go into a library looking for one thing and come out with some books on a completely different subject.  same with listening to music and with researching topics.  there is something in my brain that searches for connections and once those connections are found they are more exciting than the original topic - which leads me far off base. 

[pianistimo]

i realize this is an off-base question - but do you ever think about 'intuition.'  women are supposed to have this - and i find that in many situations it has served me better than logic. 

on the other hand, my husband has saved our family from many mishaps by using logic. 

i am the one that never panics if i don't where we are on a map.  i figure as long as the sun is shining, we'll know which way is east.  it works for basic things such as when things don't go as planned.  i feel that i am easily adaptable.  it just doesn't bother me when an idea doesn't work - unless it's a puzzle (and then it really bothers me) - and i'm open to searching the periphery.  if i happen to hit a target of some kind (i praise God) and say it must have been meant to be.  i know that for me - to hit a target is probably going happen maybe three times in my life.  you aim - but sometimes it's too high or too low and then go for adjustments.

what i find amazing is that when i pray for help in whatever situation -it's there.  i would say that premonition is something i've felt.  and direct answers to direct situations.  timing has been an amazing thing as just last week we had a zero checking balance and i prayed that day that a refund on a class (that i withdrew from) would come and it came the very next day.  i just take it as something that 'happens' in my life.  if i believe that it will be true - God can make it happen.  i don't 'tell God' what to do...but I ask him - in faith.

[prometheus]

Intuition isn't supernatural.

[pianistimo]

no.  sorry to confuse it with faith.  but,there have been times that i have 'felt' the 'spirit of God' in church and other places.  usually around believers.  this would not be perceptable by any scientific means.   

even when i am alone and praying, i feel a connection to God.  sometimes he guides us to a source or thought that helps us along in whatever situation we find ourselves.

[meisel]

When remember as a kid, i felt many things that werent there. I thought there was a wolf in my room, even though it was just a chair with clothes on top. I also felt there was scary animals in the woods where i lived at night (sometimes i still feel it).

People with schizofrenia sees and/or hears objects and persons thats is not there (although you never know). So, feeling things that cant be empirically proved isnt that strange. Hey, maybe christianity is just a minor form of schizofrenia 

Intuition, on the other hand, is something else. We know more than we know we know.

There once was a horse that had the gift to do math. When people asked the horse for example "what is 2+4?", the horse knocked his foot to the ground six times, and so forth. Everybody was astonished, and a science team were called in to study the fenomenon. They tried multiplication ect, but the horse still managed to get the number right. They also tried without audience, but still without any result. So, they then put everybody behind a curtain, so the horse didnt see them. Then the horse failed. It turned out, the horse didnt know how to do math, but stopped knocking his foot when he saw/felt a certain reaction on the people. If a horse can do this, image what humans does.

Maybe this "intuition", where one feels Gods guidance is just is a version of the subconscious.

[lisztisforkids]

I am far from a religous nut head, but I am equally far from Atheism....This whole argument of God/spirtualness cannot be scientificaly proven is utter nonsense... People should just drop that kind of arguing. While it is true that God cannot be proven, if we could prove that God exists, wouldent that take away the whole purpose of God?

[lisztisforkids]

Personally, I find it incredible that a musician can be an Athiest.. As I beleive the whole point of music is that we are more than just atoms, and chemical reactions....

[prometheus]

Well, we are made out of atoms and chemical reactions. But at the same time we are also humans. The fact that we are made out of atoms and chemical reactions doesn't mean we can't be people. We all know the nature of humans. And all this can be explained.

So god, what do you mean? That god channels music through people and that people aren't really able to make any art at all?

Maybe it is the imagination-point. Atheists don't have limited imagination. They can imagine, and do imagine, all kinds of things. They just don't believe in their imagination.

Actually, I write fantasy with all kinds of gods, magic, strange creatures, strange people and cultures, etc. I just don't believe that what I write is true.

[lisztisforkids]

Well, we are made out of atoms and chemical reactions. But at the same time we are also humans. The fact that we are made out of atoms and chemical reactions doesn't mean we can't be people. We all know the nature of humans. And all this can be explained.

So god, what do you mean? That god channels music through people and that people aren't really able to make any art at all?

Maybe it is the imagination-point. Atheists don't have limited imagination. They can imagine, and do imagine, all kinds of things. They just don't believe in their imagination.

Actually, I write fantasy with all kinds of gods, magic, strange creatures, strange people and cultures, etc. I just don't believe that what I write is true.

 I do not seek God as an explanation (unlike some other people on this forum) for things that I can not personally explain.. As Pianistimo pointed out she dident know how the Grand Canyon was formed, so by her reasoning it must have been created by God.

 What does it mean to be a human? Scientificaly we are just another life form on the planet Earth. Nothing more, nothing less. I do not beleive this. Ofcourse I beleive in evolution and the Big Bang and so forth. But I truly beleive that we are something more than all this if you follow me. And that is part of the reason that I say God or whatever you want to define it as, must exist.

 The imagination thing wasent a point, it was a joke. 

 

[lisztisforkids]

The concept of 'does God exist?' does not belong in a academic argument. The idea of the Bibles validiy does.

[kelly_kelly]

The Da Vinci Code is far more logical to me than the Bible. I'm sorry, but it's true.

[pianistimo]

and yet, if we are made in the image of God, then knowing God must be important as we are attempting to emulate Him.  if He had something in mind for us when He made us (our purpose) then why would we make another purpose for ourselves if we know He is ultimately the definer of our future?

as i see it, there are two choices.  To believe not only that God exists, but to follow Him...or to pick the same choice as adam and eve did (the tree of the knowledge of good and evil).  that is, to choose for ourselves what is good and what is evil.  we know that a basic morality exists - but most people don't know where it started.  it all started in the garden of eden with the first choices - and went on from there.  we either choose good or choose evil.  there isn't this wide variety of lives to live - otherwise there wouldn't be the commands of Christ to follow Him and his example.

if we keep the commandments and love God and man - then we are in good stead.  if we decide to start doing harmful things (i think even to the environment) we are following evil.  God always seems to choose life and choose love.  satan is a destroyer.  you can see his actions in our society to destroy hope.  hope is something all humans need.  especially in regards to their future.  what hope is there in science alone?  can it save us?  can it make us live one day longer.  perhaps it can give us donations of bone, etc. from a previously living person - but in terms of actually giving us eternal life - never!  our lives are a very short span on this earth and then (like grass) we just fade.  if you want hope you have to think beyond the here and now into eternity.  look up at the stars and you get a sense of the magnitude of the love of God.  he is giving us an opportunity to UNDERSTAND more - but we start with small bits.  we couldn't understand all his knowledge at one time - and maybe never will - but i'm certain the way Christ taught the disciplines that He is a teacher.  if you learn the first precepts, He teaches more and builds upon a foundation.  that foundation starts at the beginning of the bible and goes through to the end of all things.  the end of the ages.  and the beginning of our future.

[alejo_90]

Seems like the conversation is getting more deep and philosophical.

[alejo_90]

Look, maybe pianistimo does believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense, and maybe the Bible is all made up, but pianistimo has a great life and a great family, and she has the Bible to thank for that. We've got a lot of growing up to do, buddies. Suck my balls

Amen... ... ... except for the Suck my balls part of course.

Come on ! We' re like twenty against one, let's try to be a little less bashing and agressive. (to pianistimo)

And BTW pianistimo, have you got a name? I like to write your real names when I reply.
Best
Alex

[thalbergmad]

Sorry, pianisstimo, that's not in the Bible.  That story comes from the Book of Enoch, which was rejected by the early church as not inspired, and never made it into the canon.

Try again. 

Some interesting stuff never made it in.

[thalbergmad]

Amen... ... ... except for the Suck my balls part of course.

Come on ! We' re like twenty against one, let's try to be a little less bashing and agressive. (to pianistimo)

And BTW pianistimo, have you got a name? I like to write your real names when I reply.
Best
Alex

Here name is Sarah.

Not sure of her surname.

I think it is Pilate.

[sarahlein]

satan is always at the center of a world government.  i don't think he's located in turkey.  i think this is a dual meaning - because satan was once at the headquarters of the roman empire (dealing with trade, rulership, etc) and most likely has a similar 'throne' wherever the beginnings and middle and finally the end of the current 'world trade system' is located.  what i find funny is that he bombed himself when he blew up the world trade center.  people don't realize what god they are serving - but the monetary system of this world has the pictures of the rulers that it represents (such as the coin with caesars head)  'give unto caesar the things that are caesars...'

this is what i truly believe and how i understand the bible.  in no way do i feel that 9/11 was funny but i do feel that God only allows Satan so much power and he was only allowed at that time to hit the trade center - which is probably a very limited location compared to his hit lists now.  if the bible is accurate - which i believe it is - the 'tribulation' is not somethat that God is unaware of  satan starting in our times.  the tribulation is not about happy families for christians.  it is told to us ahead of time that we may be headed for persecution because it has happened all down through the ages.  the only thing is, this time Christ will stop it before the entire earth is destroyed.  we are told the war will begin in the middle east - but not before we are taken 'captive' monetarily by a world trade system.  which seems to be the case already.  some of us will physically suffer and some will be allowed to 'flee on a day other than the Sabbath.'  why would Christ say 'pray that your flight not be in the winter on the Sabbath.'  was he only speaking to jews?  NO.  but, he WAS speaking to ALL THOSE IN JERUSALEM.  the holy capital that will be the world's capital int he milleneum.

Pianistimo, I was wondering do comments like the ones above reflect your own personal research or what you are being taught by your church?

[timothy42b]

pianistimmo is basically a good hearted soul, so the conversation is likely to continue, though staying on topic is, ahem, unlikely.

But.  You quoted James, 4:7.  James of course is one of the few books in the NT with absolutely no mention of Jesus.  Well, you knew that, I'm sure. 

But what I'm curious about is what you do with James's family, given that he is the brother of Jesus?  (Some say half brother, based on the idea of Jesus being a virgin birth.  Either way, James and Jesus's parents are the same two people, Mary and Joseph.)

I'm not making this up, it's in the Bible. 

[pianistimo]

where to start? (yeah, stop ganging up on me.  and thal, why did you say pilate is my last name.  do you think my obsessive compulsive washing of hands is crucial to this matter? and how did u know?  or could it be - i am quietly washing myslef of this conversation and going on to the real murderers).  it has occasionally crossed my mind to do prison ministry, but i think i might try starting with a woman's prison.  see how it goes.  if you don't hear back from me...

james 1:1  'james, a bond-servant of God AND of the Lord Jesus Christ...'  he doesn't make his physical connection to the Lord one of genetics, but spiritually connects himself to Jesus by God.  in any case, he is sometimes called the brother of Jesus - but people know that he was a half brother - if mary was already pregnant before Joseph married her and that by the Holy Spirit.  if he was thinking of putting her away - he wouldn't have though - 'oh, yez, that one time by the river when we went skinny dipping...'  also, james 2:1 '...do not hold your faith in our Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism...'  another mention of Jesus.

saralein, some of what i know is what i've heard in church,  some is researched, some i've talked and discussed with friends, and some is what i 'feel.'  just as people put feelings into music...so i think we put our life feelings into our understanding of how God is working with us on a personal level.  whatever gifts i have, i try to share.  if someone doesn't agree - that's ok.  everyone seems to come from a different perspective.

my perspective was and is from a sabbatarian one (although i am not jewish).  i believe the seventh day is holy (saturday) and think that we should not work or do things that aredealing with business (since Jesus put out the money changers on the Sabbath).  my husband, on the other hand, thinks that every day is pretty much alike - although he worshps on Sunday.  i don't think God is going to say - he's going left - your going right.  i think the way my husband lives his life is honorable - so, in fact, perhaps the pauline interpretation for him will be just as ok as my literal jewish interpretation of sabbath rest. 

what's most important is that we refrain from worshipping idols and doing things that would be related to witchcraft or serving satan.  (drinking blood or doing things related to eating strangulated food, etc - things that are obviously mimicing the 'Lord's supper.'  i believe satan is jealous of Jesus dying for us - and His holy communion is something that is most likely to be in a satanic ritual as actual drinking of blood.  whereas with christianity - we are told to drink wine.  this is partaking in (just as with a wedding feast) a celebration that we know that Christ died and was ressurrected so that we can partake with His righteouss blood and body covering our sins int he kingdom of God.

[timothy42b]

I have misjudged pianistimmo, misinterpreting her theology as Baptist.  Perhaps confused, but basically mainstream Baptist.  I see now she is not, seems to be Seventh Day Adventist, and so much of what I argued in earlier threads was simply wrong. 

Sorry. 

[pianistimo]

well, i'm not seventh day adventist, either.  probably more like seventh day baptist.  i believe in baptism and most churches that i've attended have had the title 'church of God.'  the early church inthe bible was called 'the way.'  basically, you had the apostles going to the jewish churches (which encorporated any gentiles living in the area) and paul going to the gentiles (which encorporated the jews living in the diaspora).  as i understand it - the requirements of both were very different.  when Christ lived - He did not go against any of the law and yet - showed the mercy of the law - as with the sabbath - that healing on it was ok.  he still did not work on the sabbath.  in fact, he said that 'one jot or title' would not be removed from the law until ALL is fulfilled.  so, even if we keep a small part of the law or as much as we understand - we will be blessed for natural blessings that come from the law (which are physical).  the spiritual blessings come later and are a free gift and not something achievable by law - but if we are 'children of God' then there must be a difference in who's government we are following.  if we are part of God's government - then the laws we keep are including man's but not excluding God's.  the ten commandments - as i see it- are forever.

i have always been interested in the sabbath and holy days of the bible.  they are much different holidays than the ones on our regular calendar.  basically, there isn't so much commercialism in them - or shouldn't be, anyway.  as i understand the celebrated feasts of the bible - there is new testament passover (commemorated much like the communion in many churches, but taken more often in some than others), and pentecost (giving of holy spirit), day of atonement (reminding us of our need for Christ's atoning sacrifice), and sukkot (or feast of tabernacles) which pictures us dwelling with Christ for the millenium and the Last great day - when all the world will be at peace and the new heavens and earth are revealed (as spoken of in revelations).

guess that as truth is revealed - you just listen to it and think - oh, i understand better what He's trying to say to the world.  that he is starting with spring - and going to harvest time.  as Christ died and was ressurrected - so will we.  we're like a seed that dies and then turns into a new creation.  something different than what was before.  we know that there will not be male/female - but that we will be like the angels.  just that a lone is different - but our bodies will also be spiritual instead of physical and we won't feel pain or suffer the typical ailments (deafness, lameness, etc) that many do.