Alternate history: What if Jesus wasent crucified?

[lisztisforkids]

Ahhh... Yes, I do love alternate history. Any speculations people?

[prometheus]

All christians would be called muslims.

[thalbergmad]

Jesus was crucified, but he survived.

He then legged it from the Romans and caught the next boat to Marseille with Mary Magdelene. He lived a few more years and had some children.

He was then buried on a hilside in France (near Renees le Chateau) and his descendants still live there today.

I thought everyone knew this, or is it just me that reads books like "The Tomb of God".

Thal

[gilad]

i saw a documentry that said jesus settled in the far east for the rest of his days.

far out.

[thalbergmad]

I wonder where pianistimo is.

Ideal thread for her.

Thal

[Waldszenen]

Jesus was crucified, but he survived.

He then legged it from the Romans and caught the next boat to Marseille with Mary Magdelene. He lived a few more years and had some children.

He was then buried on a hilside in France (near Renees le Chateau) and his descendants still live there today.

I thought everyone knew this, or is it just me that reads books like "The Tomb of God".

Thal

Whoa, now let's wait until all the anti-Da Vinci Code people see this post.

[rimv2]

Ahhh... Yes, I do love alternate history. Any speculations people?

Through all his life Christ was a symbol for what man could be. As he grew older, having not being made an example of, having not been crucified, he continue his teaching. It was unfortunate, however, that people's view of him as a savior waned and he was seen as nothing more than an aging prophet. His follower grew fanatical. He was seen a sorceror, and the leader of a unitarian cult. After his death, his teaching were perverted by the younger leaders of his cult. They became greedy. They became feared. They become hated. They fell. And another cult took their place.

[sarahlein]

I wonder where pianistimo is.

Ideal thread for her.

Thal

Ha,ha   I liked that one
 
Don't you worry now, you'll get your 2-page answer on anything but the subject soon enough! -(sorry pianistimo, couldn't help myself )

[thalbergmad]

Whoa, now let's wait until all the anti-Da Vinci Code people see this post.

Interesting subject that code.

I visited St Sulpice in Paris last year and they had big signs up denouncing the code and any link with the Cathedral.

However, they did not cover up the collection boxes to stop contributions from the increased visitors the book has caused.

Thal

[tac-tics]

He wasn't. God used a time machine to go back in time and save him. The result was a ton of confused Romans. It also created a parallel timeline where robots can be endowed with souls and can go to Heaven, but that's not the point. The point is that God used a time machine. Actually, the time machine broke after use. That is why so many bad things happen on Earth. Because God is still in the past trying to get back to the future.

[cziffra]

After his death, his teaching were perverted by the younger leaders of his cult. They became greedy. They became feared. They become hated.

funny how alternate history can so closely resemble true history.

[rimv2]

funny how alternate history can so closely resemble true history.

Ah did that on purpose.

Tis the inevitable fait of any prosletizing religion/cult.

And many nonprosletizing cults as well.

[pianolearner]

I wonder where pianistimo is.

Ideal thread for her.

Thal

Don't you get it? This is exactly what would happen in the alternate history- pianistimo would have nothing to say. In fact, nobody would know she ever existed.

[johnny-boy]

Beethoven gives up Classical music to compose a new form of music called Rap. He stated "there's just no money in classical" anymore.

John

[johnny-boy]

Sorry. I saw "Alternate History" and jumped to reply before I read the part about Jesus.

Big deal, so crucify me.

John

[pianolearner]

Beethoven gives up Classical music to compose a new form of music called Rap. He stated "there's just no money in classical" anymore.

John

I thought this made sense. Change one tiny bit of history and everything that followed changes too. It all has to do with the butterfly effect and sensitivity to initial conditions described by chaos theory. But I like the idea of crucifying you and starting an entirely new cult.

[pianistimo]

where to start after laughing about most of these alternate theories.  as i see it - we'd have no hope.  Jesus Christ is the hope of our salvation.  if he wasn't crucified AND raised from the dead - we'd be 'living in sin.'  of course, nowdays, we wouldn't worry because that would be fitting in with the popular culture - but, what if you don't want to and occasionally mess up.  then you'd have done all these good deeds but everytime you sin or mess up you'd say - 'well, i may as well have been like the worst because there's no dif between one sin and million.' 

what i find really interesting (after doing an all-nighter project with my son on Cambodian genocide) is that some of the people that committed the worst atrocities we can think of = actually heard about Christ at the end of their life (after NEVER hearing about him) and confessed and became Christian.  we will never know how they will be judged until the ressurrection - but we know that Christ came so that we might 'have life.'  that is so different than the ideas perpetrated by genocide and killing (of which Christ and the disciples that followed him - and didn't change his teaching were persecuted).

basically, in Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge (much like the Romans, and some Germans under Hitler) learned about how torture affected humans by experimenting with very crude methods.  they used shoves, hoes, electric shock, whips, burial up to neck, scorpions, bugs, etc to get people to confess they were either part of the CIA, or Vietnamese plotting to overthrow them.  they did, as the germans, write down the names, height, weight, took pictures, totrued, and killed it is estimated (by us government) several million people and the mass graves are there to prove it.  of course, in fighting the vietnamese - the cambodians were also bombed (villages near th border) by usa to keep the training camps of vietnamese down - but whatever method of bringing pain to other peoples will not be used in God's kingdom.

his kingdom is a kingdom of PEACE.  people will be trained to get along, to learn a different doctrine of how to live with all nationalities and races and peoples and love them.  if children were taught this (as the khmer rouge and hitler tried to teach young children and they were the vast majority of the army) then they'd learn right thinking and not be out to chop off arms and legs and watch other people suffer and be rewarded for it.

we're so far gone.  we can see biblical history being concluded right now.  there's not much time left.  it's not as if christians are saying 'the sky is falling.'  it is already in the process of disintigration (the earth).  look at the weather only.  not even taking into account the spirit of hatred between people which may lead to another world war very soon.  can you imagine how people will be seeking God (and possibly not finding him) when it is TOO LATE.  as other christians have said, now is the time to listen to people who tell you to turn your life around.  Look to Christ.  Remember his words.  When you are tempted to do wrong (or do wrong) repent and look to his forgiveness which is everlasting life.  the other way is death now and death later.  it's not life.  it's a deception.  the deception is not from the gospel - but a mistaken gospel saying that Christ never died for us (the da vinci code). 

if you believe in tithing - then you pay to churches that make the money go the farthest.  not to a church that teaches Christ never died.  forget that!  that isn't the true gospel and would never be taught by a true discipline.

[prometheus]

How does god keep people from making war in his kingdom?

[rob47]

How does god keep people from making war in his kingdom?

It's quite simple. If my theory Almighty God in the Highest is in fact actor Ving Rhames (I'm almost 100% sure he is) then he just lays the law down by boxing out anyone who wants to cause trouble.

In the following graphic novella i have written, watch what happens when Jesus tries to bogart the spliff that he and god both pitched equally on...not pretty


(right click 'view image' then zoom)

[Waldszenen]

Was that supposed to be funny?

[rob47]

Was that supposed to be funny?

Yes. But looking at it now it's a bit unfunny. I failed

I will begin work on chapter 2 to attempt to redeem myself

[rob47]

 

[lisztisforkids]

That is funny.

[timothy42b]

where to start after laughing about most of these alternate theories.  as i see it - we'd have no hope. 

Actually this is not a bad start, though from there on I'm not sure you ever came back to topic, so I snipped it.

The Jewish people were not without hope before Jesus arrived, nor have they continued without hope after he left.  Their thorough reading (of what is actually their own as well as Jesus's scripture) did not indicate the hopelessness you feel existed. 

If Jesus had not existed, would some other event have caused people to become hopeless? 

[timothy42b]

I guess there are really two constants to the religion threads.

Topic starts.

pianistimmo writes lengthy treatise from Southern Baptist tradition perspective.

Tim comes along and argues viciously.  (Tim being Episcopalian gets riled by people who preach longer than 15 minutes, so is never in Baptist church unless being paid to perform.  But this also means Tim stays awake for entire sermon more than 70% of the time, so actually remembers some of this stuff.  ) 

DS al segno, CODA, and end. 

[pianistimo]

i think we're going to witness people killing themselves.  Christ won't have to do anything but clean up.

[thalbergmad]

where to start after laughing about most of these alternate theories. 

Yeh, they are almost as improbable and funny as the supposed "truth".

[pianistimo]

just got an advertisement for seal coating the driveway and was thinking about hot tar.  that works?!  people will ready convert when the choice is hot vs cool.  but, when you think about it, satan has given us only the choice evil and evil.  what kind of choice is that?  good and evil is more of a choice.

i think God is like a parent.  He really wants us to choose good.  He wants us to have blessings.  but, he can't make us do anything.  so, that's where the choice comes in.  i guess if we choose evil - we won't be hot tarred - but simply burned up like tares. the wheat will be left.  i take God at his word - and i don't want to die twice.  i mean - it's bad enough to die once.  why do it twice?  the second death is after the judgement (and if we don't accept Christ's sacrifice - there is no more sacrifice for sins).  as i read revelations - all who are judged from the books (their own works without Christ's atonement) will die in the 'lake of fire.'  it doesn't sound good to us - and fairly much like torture - but being burned up is equivalent to a sure quick death. 

daniel (in the book of daniel) was put into a hot firey furnace and WASNT burned up.  this shows that God is all powerful over each force that we are submitted to on earth.  He has the power over death.  what a strong God.  i rely on Him to protect me and to cover my sins.  i think it's the only rational choice, imo.  otherwise, He wouldn't be a strong God - and sin would live forever - which is something He says won't be.

[thalbergmad]

(daniel (in the book of daniel) was put into a hot firey furnace and WASNT burned up. 

Its a miracle. Praise the Lord

[lisztisforkids]

  i rely on Him to protect me and to cover my sins.  i think it's the only rational choice, imo.  otherwise, He wouldn't be a strong God - and sin would live forever - which is something He says won't be.

I take responisibility for my actions, I dont need God to cover my but.

I hate to say it... But I beleive there has been a lot more sin then good in the last 2000 years.

[thalbergmad]

I hate to say it... But I beleive there has been a lot more sin then good in the last 2000 years.

I would concur with this and would ask what God and Jesus were doing whilst all this sin was taking place.

[pianistimo]

if Christ came back before we were sick of ourselves and our actions, there wouldn't be the same respect and glory to His name.  humans think they have it all figured out.  but, we really don't in the short and long haul.  it's really a day to day thing.  one day we feel fine, do good, don't get into trouble - and another day - we're succeptible to satan's little call 'over here, over here, let's get into trouble today.'  you can be responsible for your actions but it still doesn't make you perfect.  in fact, in makes you think 'oh, i've done this and this - so i may as well just make it a career.'  (swearing, stealing, lying, cheating, being selfish, whatever)  but, one sin to God is just a sin.  He knows us inside and out and even when we are good we might be thinking too much of ourselves - and that's a sin, too.

as i see it, the only way to win this chess game is to look for a mentor.  to say - ok, God... you're smarter .  advise my moves.  then, with the help of the Holy Spirit you have another little voice speaking in your other ear.  so satan says to you 'do this....' and the Holy Spirit says 'no, don't do that - look at what others have done (right/wrong) before you.  look at their examples.  do you want to be a fool or a righteous person? do right.'  right being the simple addition of the ten commandments.  but, sometimes along the way we still do wrong - so every day it never hurts to say ' God forgive my sins.  the ones i know about, and the ones that are hidden.' 

at least we make an attempt (just as with school) to show a track record of maintaining an admission of a knowledge of good and attempting to live up to it.  was listening to joel osteen last night and he said that our grandparents and parents and hopefully us (for our children) built a foundation - so that we could benefit from it.  if you have a good family background - then a lot is built up for you.  if you don't - you just determine to make a good one for yourself and your family (literal or extended).  you never know the great achievements that can be if you don't aim for excellence in your life.  so, according to God and man - excellence is above the norm.  you aren't thinking just of yourself but of other people around you (as you would family) and how what you do impacts them.  teachers are already aware of this - but, perhaps day to day - christians sometimes forget it.  we don't remember that God tells us to be 'lights.'  especially as the times grow darker.  if we do one good thing - it obliterates a lot of darkness around us and sheds some light for others to go on ahead or follow us.  sort of like spelunking.

[rob47]

right click view, true

[bearzinthehood]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/did-jesus-die.shtml

It may be surprising to some that humanity has only recently gained the ability to diagnose what is perhaps the most obvious of ailments, death.  The history of burial practices and its relation to this shortcoming is in itself a fascinating subject.

At the very least we should consider our own ignorance of etymology and of the political and social climates surrounding the creation of religious texts before we ascribe literal meaning to the texts themselves, or even worse, individual passages.

[musik_man]

He wasn't. God used a time machine to go back in time and save him. The result was a ton of confused Romans. It also created a parallel timeline where robots can be endowed with souls and can go to Heaven, but that's not the point. The point is that God used a time machine. Actually, the time machine broke after use. That is why so many bad things happen on Earth. Because God is still in the past trying to get back to the future.

Best post of the year

[rimv2]

just got an advertisement for seal coating the driveway and was thinking about hot tar.  that works?!  people will ready convert when the choice is hot vs cool.  but, when you think about it, satan has given us only the choice evil and evil.  what kind of choice is that?  good and evil is more of a choice.

i think God is like a parent.  He really wants us to choose good.  He wants us to have blessings.  but, he can't make us do anything.  so, that's where the choice comes in.  i guess if we choose evil - we won't be hot tarred - but simply burned up like tares. the wheat will be left.  i take God at his word - and i don't want to die twice.  i mean - it's bad enough to die once.  why do it twice?  the second death is after the judgement (and if we don't accept Christ's sacrifice - there is no more sacrifice for sins).  as i read revelations - all who are judged from the books (their own works without Christ's atonement) will die in the 'lake of fire.'  it doesn't sound good to us - and fairly much like torture - but being burned up is equivalent to a sure quick death. 

daniel (in the book of daniel) was put into a hot firey furnace and WASNT burned up.  this shows that God is all powerful over each force that we are submitted to on earth.  He has the power over death.  what a strong God.  i rely on Him to protect me and to cover my sins.  i think it's the only rational choice, imo.  otherwise, He wouldn't be a strong God - and sin would live forever - which is something He says won't be.

I love this woman.

Marry me. Maarrrry MEEEEE

Why?

I tell you later

[jalgor]

 

God is just a expression of life, empty substance, without any empiric content. (like i said in another topic)

Why should we believe/trust in bible?

Should we take seriously advices from this "so-called holy book", only because this "holy book" claims to be word of "god"? Since, this book does not have any scientific basis and this is not scientific theory, thereby, it doesnt have scientific value and thats why it is not reliable.

[timothy42b]

daniel (in the book of daniel) was put into a hot firey furnace and WASNT burned up.  this shows that God is all powerful over each force that we are submitted to on earth.  He has the power over death.  what a strong God.  i rely on Him to protect me and to cover my sins. 

Two different Gods.

Harold Bloom in his recent book "Jesus and Yahweh, the Names Divine" makes a very good case that while the personalities of Yahweh and Allah are very rich and match closely, the Christian version of God the Father has almost nothing in common with them.  The Christians ignore the Old Testament characterizations. 

[jalgor]

daniel (in the book of daniel) was put into a hot firey furnace and WASNT burned up.  this shows that God is all powerful over each force that we are submitted to on earth.  He has the power over death.  what a strong God.  i rely on Him to protect me and to cover my sins.  i think it's the only rational choice, imo.  otherwise, He wouldn't be a strong God - and sin would live forever - which is something He says won't be.

Feel free to show me reliable source of this, or at least some kind of proof. No, not the bible.

[pianistimo]

i'm no scholar, but i can figure from wikipedia that nebuchadnezzar was a real man and was the ruler of babylon at the time of daniel.  when a person is one of the 'ruled' they are often not as recorded historically - and yet daniel rose to a top position because of his God.  in this article it explains the 'double name' that was often given (both to Joseph in Egypt and to Daniel in Babylon - taking the names that were egyptian/babylonian)

www.christiancourier.com/archives/nebuchadnezzar.htm

dear rimv2, are you a cyclist?  or, you're impressed with my housekeeping?  either way - i guess i am married and shouldn't tease.  but, did i see you on the bike trail?  it was sunny for sat/sun and did the usual 26 miles.  shouldn't have wornt he bikini top.  hmm. or maybe it's my technical prowess at the piano?  (zheer says it's 'spoon fed').

[jalgor]

I know only some basic stuff from Daniel's book history. I'm aware about it's rulers and of course big debate about Belsazar/Nabodius, which one was last ruler of Babylon.

I still dont see how these historical facts would make reliabe proof, that Daniel survived from fire, without burning, and only because this so-called "god" did this invulnerability?

Ive seen David Copperfield doing this!

[pianistimo]

and not a hair of his head was singed?  i think he's been severely burned many times.

don't quote me on this.  the article was hard to follow:

www.terribly-happy.com/journal-04-04-01.html

i think his next act is that he wants to impregnate a woman participant on stage without touching her.  (hmm. reminds me of a new movie where some guy says 'i bet i can kiss you without touching your lips").

anyway, i don't put much faith in magic in general.  www.asktog.com/papers/magic.html

[thalbergmad]

and not a hair of his head was singed?

D D Hume did that as well.

Its a neat trick.

[sarahlein]

I still don't see how these historical facts would make reliabe proof, that Daniel survived from fire, without burning, and only because this so-called "god" did this invulnerability?

And especialy when Daniel was not thrown into that fiery furnace in the first place!

Come on pianistimo, I really think you could avoid some of the teasing about your posts if you would , at least for what you believe, state things more accurately

[pianistimo]

so you don't believe moses saw the burning bush, that Christ walked on water, changed water to wine, healed the sick, the blind, the lame, turned five loaves and fishes into enough baskets to feed the multitude that was with him that particular day, etc.  fine. 

go watch david copperfield.  i wouldn't waste my money.  God's miracles are free.

[lisztisforkids]

so you don't believe moses saw the burning bush, that Christ walked on water, changed water to wine, healed the sick, the blind, the lame, turned five loaves and fishes into enough baskets to feed the multitude that was with him that particular day, etc.  fine. 

go watch david copperfield.  i wouldn't waste my money.  God's miracles are free.

Yes... Please tell me more about Gods miracles that you have witnesed. And next time, get it on video tape.

[pianistimo]

why.  don't you have an imagination?

seriously, i think there is enough reality to make everyone crazy.  read the paper.  there's too much of it.  what we need is something unreal.  peace.  love.  joy.  people getting along.  no crime. 

what would this take?  a miracle.

[rob47]

pianistimo what if:

You go to sleep tonight and an angel comes to you in a dream and says, "tis true pianistimo, you have been chosen by the Lord to give birth to his son Jesus who has decided it is time to come again. The holy spirit is on his way and he'll have you knocked up by the time you wake up tommorow. Oh and also if you weren't already aware the holy spirit is Jamacian. kthxbye"

?it would be interesting.

[jalgor]

Yes... Please tell me more about Gods miracles that you have witnesed. And next time, get it on video tape.

I would like see that too.

But god is just a illusion in human brain. Illusion without any secular proof.

[pianistimo]

rob47,  Christ isn't coming as a baby this time.  He's a king.  And, you won't be making jokes when he arrives.  He's too powerful to overlook and the miracles you'll see won't be little ones.  i take the book of revelations to be the awesome ending to a seeming 'novel' to us (except that it 's the novel of thousands of years of human history).  no matter what age we live in - there are constants.  the constants that i see are good/evil.  there is always an unseen 'battle' and the winning side is His.