Great pieces with stupid parts

[superstition2]

...pieces that are brilliant, or at least very good, overall.... but possess a flaw, or a quality you don't like at some point in the piece.


Prokofiev, piano sonata #7, the beginning of movement 2. The melody is mediocre at best, and the rhythm isn't so hot, either.

Prokofiev, piano sonata #4, andante assai movement. While I don't really know the entire sonata well, I know this movement well because I have a recording of Prokofiev playing it. It has some wonderful parts, but they are put together stupidly.

Brahms, piano concerto #2. There is a terribly jarring transition in one of the movements. I'll have to listen to it again so I can note the exact place. While, for me, Brahms usually bores or grates, this piece was played brilliantly by Artur Rubinstein in a live recording in Warsaw, 1960.

I don't like the second movement of Beethoven's Op. 110, although I don't much care for the entire piece, so perhaps it shouldn't be part of this list.

The climax at the end of the first movement of the Scriabin concerto can be overdone to the point of annoyance. The otherwise perfect Ashkenazy/Maazel recording blasts it.

The noise blast at the beginning of the final version of Rachmaninov's 4th concerto, probably designed to make the concerto more "hard"/"masculine", doesn't add anything of value.

The last movement of Prokofiev's 6th symphony is regrettable, at least judging by the recording I have which has two wonderful preceeding movements.

Some of Bach's organ pieces irritate me because they are minor throughout and end with a major chord. It's not always satisfying. If I were playing them, I'd change the ending chord in such instances.

[gonzalo]

...pieces that are brilliant, or at least very good, overall.... but possess a flaw, or a quality you don't like at some point in the piece.

Debussy's Golliwogg's cake walk, when he makes fun of Wagner's Tristan und Isolde. That not only irritates me , but is a stupid, unnecesary part in the piece.

[ted]

There are dozens of them but I wouldn't go as far as labelling them stupid in any objective sense; they are just moments which seem weak or ineffective to me personally. However, my taste is very unusual at the best of times; some parts which people praise very highly don't do much for me at all. Therefore it isn't something I'd feel confident making general pronouncements about. As I only play privately anyway I frequently alter the odd part to please myself.

Genuine type-setting and copying errors abound in certain ragtime, swing, stride and jazz related scores. Most are obvious in the light of the composer's style but some take a while to hear. After a while I just get a vague idea that something isn't right. But this latter situation is probably not quite what you meant.

[superstition2]

Of course it's subjective. Any evaluation of art is subjective. I wasn't talking about clerical errors, unless they exist in all known copies of a piece. I am interested in your list of personal issues with great/very good pieces.

[faulty_damper]

Prokofiev, piano sonata #7, the beginning of movement 2. The melody is mediocre at best, and the rhythm isn't so hot, either.

I disagree.  I think this movement is beautiful but none of the recordings I have listened to (i.e. from Gavrilov, Argerich, Pollini, Horowitz) has ever played it melodically.  The problem present from these pianists is that they either play it vertically, take the incorrect tempo, change the tempo (i.e. rubato), or a combination of the above.  It's beautiful but all of the aforementioned pianists just haven't learned how to play legato in this movement.

[hodi]

the second movement of beethoven's tempest sonata
the first movement is good
the third - great
the second - SUCKS!

[lisztisforkids]

About 10 or 11 minuets into Brahms concerto 1, the piano comes in with crashing chords and octaves, and is full of fire and brilliance. But then.... It goes into this dorky little thing to almost say 'It was all a joke!'

[Kassaa]

About 10 or 11 minuets into Brahms concerto 1, the piano comes in with crashing chords and octaves, and is full of fire and brilliance. But then.... It goes into this dorky little thing to almost say 'It was all a joke!'

Haha, with the arpeggio like things? I love that part ^^.

[rafant]

Stupid wouldn't be the word, but I dislike the folk middle parts of the Grieg's Lyrics pieces.

[stormx]

I still cannot understand the 4° movement of the brilliant Chopin's second piano sonata. 

[soliloquy]

In the Hawthorne movement of the Concord Sonata there are a couple sections that I could live without.

[gymnopedist]

Debussy's Golliwogg's cake walk, when he makes fun of Wagner's Tristan und Isolde. That not only irritates me , but is a stupid, unnecesary part in the piece.

Really? I thought it fitted in well with the spirit of the piece... Plus it says a lot about Debussys relation to Wagner.

[thalbergmad]

Some of Bach's organ pieces irritate me because they are minor throughout and end with a major chord. It's not always satisfying. If I were playing them, I'd change the ending chord in such instances.

That irritates me as well.

Why did he do that?

[bearzinthehood]

That irritates me as well.

Why did he do that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picardy_third

[elevateme]

chopin ballade 4 - what a piece!!  ...until the coda. such such such a shame, it would have been the best of the 4 if the coda was better (1 is the best) (by far)

[da jake]

The coda of the 4th Ballade is absolutely thrilling when it's played fast (i.e., by Richter, Hofmann)

[panic]

Scherzo of Chopin Sonata 3.

Let's try to cram as many cliches of your own compositional style as possible into a single piece, shall we, Frederic?

[mikey6]

you're all nuts!

[da jake]

Alkan Sonata -mvt 1 - Alkan takes a really fiddly-piddly idea and somehow makes an interesting piece of music. Still, the overall effect of the first movement does not do justice to the genius of the rest of the work.   
Chopin F minor Fantasy - that hideous march sequence
Schumann A minor concerto - one of the dumbest 3rd mvmnts on record
Brahms 2nd Concerto - 4th mvt is not bad, but still a bit of a let-down compared to others
Rachmaninov 3rd Concerto - compared to that magnificent opening movement, the last two are a real let-down

[kevinatcausa]

The "Picardy Thirds" also show up in Handel's Messiah at the most inopportune times.  In particular, between two of the most heartbreaking movements in the entire piece (the tenor solos "Thy Rebuke Hath Broken His Heart" and "Behold and See if There be Ay Sorrow) there's a B-minor, F sharp major, B major cadence that just makes me cringe.

[Waldszenen]

- Finale of Chopin's Sonata No. 2

- The overall ending of Liszt's Sonata (it's like he was trying to make a point and screwed it up)

- Chopin's atrocious way of ending a lot of his pieces with two misplaced banged chords (eg many of the waltzes, Prelude No. 19, Barcarolle etc)

- Brahms using the strings a little too often in the orchestration of his PCs

[musicsdarkangel]

wow, someone doesn't like the 2nd movement of the Tempest.


I think I've just about seen everything.

[BoliverAllmon]

ending to the revolutionary etude.

[da jake]

- Chopin's atrocious way of ending a lot of his pieces with two misplaced banged chords (eg many of the waltzes, Prelude No. 19, Barcarolle etc)

End of Chopin B minor Sonata - "happy birthday" chords. 

[thalbergmad]

Mussorgsky Pictures is a great work, but all the pieces are awful.

[sergei r]

Prokofiev Second Piano Concerto, great piece but the ending is weird. The piano builds to a climax before a low blast from the orchestra on some sort of inversion chord...sounds incomplete to me. I just wish it had a more definite ending.

[bearzinthehood]

wow, someone doesn't like the 2nd movement of the Tempest.


I think I've just about seen everything.

I think most people like the passionate and exciting Beethoven, but the thing that I admire most in his work is his sense of balance.  More than any other composer, his work mimics life, nature and the cosmos.  His music is a mix between turmoil and serenity, density and sparsity, spontaneity and order.

I think the Tempest sonata is a perfect example of this.

[arensky]

Mendelsohn Concerto in g minor; 3rd mvt. 

Poulenc Toccata;  the ending   

Saint-Saens Concerto #2; 2nd mvt. 

[ryguillian]

All the fugues in any of Sorabji’s works. Awful. (With the exception of the fugue in prelude-interlude-and-fugue). They really take away from some of his better works. Let us take the Piano Sonata no. 4, for example; the piece really could’ve ended with the first movement. OK, maybe the first three sections of the third movement, too. But the slow movement and the fugues are just awful.

—Ryan

[gyzzzmo]

Chopin nocturne in c minor, the hard one (cant remember opus number). The middle piece is just so ugly :s

[rc]

Wow, people don't like the picardy third? I love when a composer throws that in at the end, gives it a sweet melancholy flavor.

I'm pondering hard, but am at a loss here. I can't think of anything in music that bothers me. hmmm... Maybe I'll come across something...

[Waldszenen]

Wow, people don't like the picardy third? I love when a composer throws that in at the end, gives it a sweet melancholy flavor.

I like the picardy third because it's a characteristically Baroque flavour, like the lower mordent.

[kghayesh]

- The coda of the 4th Ballade. It ruins the whole great piece. It is just a coda with random notes everywhere that make you don't know what Chopin intended from it. Just compare it to the coda of the 1st Ballade to get what i mean.

- The C Major ending of the Revolutionary Etude in C minor is so strange too. I don't get the point of ending this passionate and fiery piece in a major chord.

[zheer]

- The C Major ending of the Revolutionary Etude in C minor is so strange too. I don't get the point of ending this passionate and fiery piece in a major chord.

  Intresting i have never thought of it that way,i guess the major chord ending is neccessary since  it is essencial to end on a bright sounding chord, not a mellow minor chord. ( i guess )

[w0mbat]

  Intresting i have never thought of it that way,i guess the major chord ending is neccessary since  it is essencial to end on a bright sounding chord, not a mellow minor chord. ( i guess )

Hm.. that IS interesting, it may be similar in reason to why op.25 no.12 ends on a major chord, there is such a triumphant quality in that.

[panic]

The chaos in the coda of Ballade 4 is part of what makes it so genius, in my opinion. It's total emotional panic after the moment of solitude that came before.

For the first few years after I heard it, I was convinced that the end of Revolutionary was a half cadence in F minor. Fortunately this misconception has been taken care of, but it still has that kind of "don't know what's going to happen next" quality.

[kghayesh]

it is essencial to end on a bright sounding chord, not a mellow minor chord. ( i guess )

Why ??

[pianalex]

arguably the c major chord ironically points up the tragic feel of what precedes. By adding a spurious major ending which in no way mitigates the tragedy, it adds a feeling of futility and hopelessness.  It also gives a weird spectral quality, which is sort of 'false', but in a good way.   It is almost impossible to overestimate the subtleties of a genius such as chopin.

[jason2711]

middle of Tchaikovsky piano concerto.. just after the hectic piano bit in the prestissimo, where the strings come in with a cheesy-sounding melody.  I find it a little annoying, though it has grown on me come to think of it.  Sort of odd when compared with the rest of the movement

[thorn]

Chopin nocturne in c minor, the hard one (cant remember opus number). The middle piece is just so ugly :s

if you're referring to the op 48 nr 1 nocturne, the middle part is fantastic, and without it, the outer two parts (particularly the latter) wouldn't have such beauty

[superstition2]

The last movement of the 2nd Chopin sonata is absolutely brilliant.

[panic]

Alkan 15/3 "Morte," the descending double octaves about three minutes from the end.

[tompilk]

Alkan Sonata -mvt 1 - Alkan takes a really fiddly-piddly idea and somehow makes an interesting piece of music. Still, the overall effect of the first movement does not do justice to the genius of the rest of the work.   
Chopin F minor Fantasy - that hideous march sequence
Schumann A minor concerto - one of the dumbest 3rd mvmnts on record
Brahms 2nd Concerto - 4th mvt is not bad, but still a bit of a let-down compared to others
Rachmaninov 3rd Concerto - compared to that magnificent opening movement, the last two are a real let-down

i disagreee with the alkan sonate... its a wonderful introduction. I do think the piece should be played back to front though. The ending is an anticlimax compared to the second and first movement...

- The coda of the 4th Ballade. It ruins the whole great piece. It is just a coda with random notes everywhere that make you don't know what Chopin intended from it. Just compare it to the coda of the 1st Ballade to get what i mean.

- The C Major ending of the Revolutionary Etude in C minor is so strange too. I don't get the point of ending this passionate and fiery piece in a major chord.

the coda is the best bit! loads of fire! Richter rules this part of the piece!

The last movement of the 2nd Chopin sonata is absolutely brilliant.

disagree... boring, random and an anticlimax. No build up of tension or anything for me... second movement is the best
Rachmaninov's end of his third concerto is amazing! fully supports the first movement! fully worthy of the third movement in my opinion!

I think that the ending of Paganini variations is either odd or genious.. it sounds silly afte rthe whole piece... if its suposed to be a joke, what a genious rach was!
Tom

[superstition2]

Some critics, myself included, feel that the final movement of the 2nd Chopin sonata is one of the most amazing compositions in piano literature. Maybe you haven't heard the right performance? The entire sonata is amazing, frankly.

[a romantic]

I absolutely love the theme that the strings play at the very beginning of Rachmaninoff's 2nd concerto, and I wait for it to reappear throughout the song, but it never does.  One of my favorite melodies, and it disappears for good shortly into the piece.

As for picardy thirds, I view them as an optimists' screwing up a tragedy by forcing upon it a happy ending.

[counterpoint]

Scherzo of Chopin Sonata 3.

Scherzo of Sonata 3 is stupid?   

Do you really think so? And what do you think then about the Scherzo of Sonata 2 or of the "Marche funebre"? Aren't they much more stupid? Someone hacks with a wooden hammer on your head, shouting: "you have to be aghasted!!!"

For me, Sonata 3 is one of Chopin's best works, and that's for all 4 mouvements.

[baron_von_heimlich]

I absolutely love the theme that the strings play at the very beginning of Rachmaninoff's 2nd concerto, and I wait for it to reappear throughout the song, but it never does.  One of my favorite melodies, and it disappears for good shortly into the piece.

As for picardy thirds, I view them as an optimists' screwing up a tragedy by forcing upon it a happy ending.

That theme does return.... you must not have a good recording (or not a good ear!).  That movement is in sonata form, and that theme is the 1st theme, which reappears after the end of the development section (a good recording will bring out the theme.  A bad recording with cover it up with a loud piano part which is supposed to be supporting there.)  That theme is also developed in the development section, of course.

I think the best use of the piccardy third is in Bach's Toccata and Fugue in d minor.  Near the beginning, that piccardy third is used, and it resolves in major.  But at the end of the piece, the same passage appears but without the piccardy third this time around!  The contrast is stunning.

[superstition2]

For me, Sonata 3 is one of Chopin's best works, and that's for all 4 mouvements.

It's a dry piece that isn't nearly as brilliant as the 2nd, and it suffers from a wordy final movement. But, it is a great piece, nonetheless.

[superstition2]

I was listening to Brahms' 1st (Horowitz/Toscanini) yesterday, and it has an awkward transition, too.

[orlandopiano]

...pieces that are brilliant, or at least very good, overall.... but possess a flaw, or a quality you don't like at some point in the piece.


Prokofiev, piano sonata #7, the beginning of movement 2. The melody is mediocre at best, and the rhythm isn't so hot, either.

Prokofiev, piano sonata #4, andante assai movement. While I don't really know the entire sonata well, I know this movement well because I have a recording of Prokofiev playing it. It has some wonderful parts, but they are put together stupidly.

Brahms, piano concerto #2. There is a terribly jarring transition in one of the movements. I'll have to listen to it again so I can note the exact place. While, for me, Brahms usually bores or grates, this piece was played brilliantly by Artur Rubinstein in a live recording in Warsaw, 1960.

I don't like the second movement of Beethoven's Op. 110, although I don't much care for the entire piece, so perhaps it shouldn't be part of this list.

The climax at the end of the first movement of the Scriabin concerto can be overdone to the point of annoyance. The otherwise perfect Ashkenazy/Maazel recording blasts it.

The noise blast at the beginning of the final version of Rachmaninov's 4th concerto, probably designed to make the concerto more "hard"/"masculine", doesn't add anything of value.

The last movement of Prokofiev's 6th symphony is regrettable, at least judging by the recording I have which has two wonderful preceeding movements.

Some of Bach's organ pieces irritate me because they are minor throughout and end with a major chord. It's not always satisfying. If I were playing them, I'd change the ending chord in such instances.

Polonaise in A flat op.53, m.151-155 the music that connects the mysterious middle section and the final return of the main theme is the most lame transition Chopin composed. Sounds like a Hanon excercise.

I believe someone else, not Chopin, filled this part in.