Chopin etudes, which is harder?

[chopiabin]

I just started working on the "oceans" etude, Op. 25, #12, but I have always wanted to play op. 10, #4, and I was wondering: has anyone played both of them and knows which is more difficult?

[robert_henry]

Opus 10 Nr 4 is the more difficult of the two, musically and technically, although even the ocean is hard if the wrist is tight.  In fact, I think the ocean is one of the easiest etudes.

Robert Henry

[chopiabin]

Besides op. 10,#9 and op. 10, #6, what are the top few easisest Chopin etudes? I'm doing them in pairs, one deep, another light, ie. "oceans" and "black key," and after those I want to move onto some of the harder ones.

[guven]

Op.10 No.2  and  Op.25 No.11

[robert_henry]

No offence guven, but are you joking?

RH

[allchopin]

Chopiabin, you seem to have left out the simple glissando-ed etude, #11 Op. 10.  Next in line is #1 Op. 25, then you got:
#7 Op. 25
some say #2 Op. 25 should be next,
#3 Op. 10,
#5 Op. 25
and it's all uphill from there, really...

Technically hardest 4 etudes-
#6 Op. 25 - insane thirds; I just dont get it
#11 Op. 25 - stamina, speed mixed with seemingly random notes
#2 Op. 10 - chromatic NOT using first 2 fingers
#7 Op. 10 - alternating 3rds and sixths, just crazily

Check them all out- it's well worth it.  I'd say that #4 is very hard, but actually not as much so as the above mentioned 4, because 4 is simply speed/timing and basic coordination between the hands to play rhythmically.  It comes more with practice, as the others require learning a whole new tecnique (they put the 'etude' in 'etude').

[guven]

No offence guven, but are you joking?

RH

Absolutely I'm not.

[BoliverAllmon]

the hardest thing for me with 25 #1 is bringing out the melody at fast speeds. Other than that it has been easy so far.

boliver

[thracozaag]

Op.10 No.2  and  Op.25 No.11

 Uhh...10 #2 is probably the MOST difficult.

[e60m5]

Guven was trying to be funny. He failed.

Op.25 no.12 is not a difficult étude. Op.10 no.4 is probably easier, though.

And, the Thirds étude seems to be universally feared on this forum. Were any of you to attempt to play it, I am sure that you would be surprised at its relative ease compared to the difficulty you had antipicated.

[guven]

Guven was trying to be funny. He failed.

Op.25 no.12 is not a difficult étude. Op.10 no.4 is probably easier, though.

Oh well, I didn't try to be funny and not a 'he' either but anyways ..

May I ask about your piano experience please? Did you record complete etudes or did you publish a book about Chopin etudes and practising techniques or what ? You seem like a "piano expert" yourself but you're the one who failed. Let's don't be bloody bossy and respect others' opinions without making fun of them. We don't know each other here, or we have no idea about others piano level , plus since we are here,on this forum to share our opinions with the other musicians.

Let me tell you about some facts which are even known by some of 8 y/o piano players already know; etudes are based on some mechanic/technique/digital difficulties -besides the musical side of them- . And difficulty level for an etude is totally different for each and every hands since we are not cyborgs and have different hand shapes . So, calling an etude difficult or easy is just depending on  YOUR pianism , technique handicaps or technique facility.

You might call Op.10/2 easy and I might call it hard .. you might call a Rachmaninov  Etude-tableaux hard and I could play it even in my sleep maybe.
Did you ever hear something like 'relativity' before ?

Please send me your record of this etude, I wanna hear how fast and legato you are able to play that soprano line. Maybe it helps me ..who knows ?

[nilsjohan]

Hmm, let me guess...

Guven was simply replying to the question in the subject line of this topic but naturally, the post was interpreted as a reply to  Chopiabin's second post. Does it make sense?

If that is the case we can all agree that Op.10 No.2 and  Op.25 No.11 are among the harder of the Chopin studies.

[allchopin]

Way to use those brain cells nils!  

[e60m5]

Oh, my apologies.

I did indeed misinterpret your post, Guven, as nils said. My apologies indeed!

Sorry, again.

If you're still interested in my own piano experience, then sure, I could provide some evidence. But I won't no longer throw it around here now that we know our disagreement arose out of a miscommunication.

[robert_henry]

Yes, obviously it was a misunderstanding.  Thanks to nils for pointing that out.  

However, it was an understandable misunderstanding given guven's initial unstated cryptic communique.  She could have cleared up the quarrel with an uncomplicated clarification, but he instead chose to continously quibble to the consequent contravention of all credible credulity.  Why would this woman want to whip up a wanton war of words?  Why whip our willies out?  I love a little alliteration.

Robert Henry

[thracozaag]

Guven was trying to be funny. He failed.

Op.25 no.12 is not a difficult étude. Op.10 no.4 is probably easier, though.

And, the Thirds étude seems to be universally feared on this forum. Were any of you to attempt to play it, I am sure that you would be surprised at its relative ease compared to the difficulty you had antipicated.

 My double notes are decent, so 25 #6 isn't so hard, ironically, it's the LEFT hand that's difficult in that etude.
 There's a really fearsome double note etude...but it's a Rachmaninoff PRELUDE..the one in Eb minor..it's IMPOSSIBLE.

[eddie92099]

 My double notes are decent, so 25 #6 isn't so hard, ironically, it's the LEFT hand that's difficult in that etude.
 There's a really fearsome double note etude...but it's a Rachmaninoff PRELUDE..the one in Eb minor..it's IMPOSSIBLE.

A wonderful piece though, maybe someone should rewrite it to make it easier  ,
Ed

[BoliverAllmon]

Maybe someone should just practice harder.

boliver

[eddie92099]

Maybe someone should just practice harder.

How malicious!
Ed

[allchopin]

Hey Thrac, let's see some videos huh

[srdabney]

the hardest thing for me with 25 #1 is bringing out the melody at fast speeds. Other than that it has been easy so far.

boliver

Boliver .. I agree its an easy etude once you get the swing of it.

Have you tried practicing slower and linger a bit on the melody notes .. then back up to speed? worked pretty well for me.

Waiting on your 5th finger is kind of natural in this etude, actually ... what with some of the jumps going from the melody note into your arpeggio.

If you mean the inner right hand voices though, thats in my opinion the hardest part of the piece at tempo. The left hand inner voices are ok because you use your thumb, so youll get more 'thump' naturally.


Scott

[chopiabin]

How difficult is op.25 #1?  Now I'm debating between op.10, #4; op.10, #12; and op.25, #1.

Taking into account the amount of time it will take to get these pieces concert-ready, which one is the most worth it (that sounds a little awkward )?

Chopi (pronounced "choppy" - for your personal reference )

[srdabney]

How difficult is op.25 #1?  Now I'm debating between op.10, #4; op.10, #12; and op.25, #1.

Taking into account the amount of time it will take to get these pieces concert-ready, which one is the most worth it (that sounds a little awkward )?

Chopi (pronounced "choppy" - for your personal reference )

Best advice is to get a good cd  and listen to all 3  ... and pick the one you love. If you love it, they will too.

Now my 2 cents ...
10 #4 is more flash than music.

25 #1 and 10 #12 are both fantastic and justifiably overplayed. I prefer 25 #1 to 10 #12 for the sweetness of it.  I also think 24#1 is a bit easier. The main challange is touch, not notes. You learn the basic motif in bar 1 and apply it all over the keyboard. But it will take you perhaps more time to perfect.

10 #12 is (forgive me for saying it) not as hard as it looks. The left hand ... how to put it ... just feels comfortable once it clicks for you. Similar feeling I got with 10#5 ... guess thats why its 'easy' (tongue in cheek). Your task of developing all the drama the piece demands from the right hand chords is more musically daunting.  Imagine playing 10#12 in left hand octaves ...
its been done!

Cheers,
Scott

[eddie92099]

Imagine playing 10#12 in left hand octaves ...
its been done!

Mr Dreyschock's notoriety lives on,
Ed

[BoliverAllmon]

I agree op. 10 #12 and op. 25 #1 are both quite easy. I was surprised how quickly the left hand in "learned" and that makes revolutionary beyond easy.

boliver

[chopiabin]

Yeah, I think the octave thing is amazing.
Anyway, my favorite cd version of the etudes is Murray Perahia's. He seems to be amazingly comfortable in these pieces - they just seem so perfect. I have a recording of Ashkenazy's etudes, and, although I typically compare all other versions of a piece to his, his just can't compare to Perahia's. He is even better than Horowitz, which I think says a lot. Jean-Yves Thibaudet (whom I saw in concert ) also has recorded at least the revolutionary and the aeolian harp, and his versions of these two seem slightly more passionate than Perahia's, but as for perahia's other etudes, I can't imagine anyone playing them better.


Chop (I have heard that Argerich's are very amazing, but does she have a complete recording of the etudes?)

[eddie92099]

I have a recording of Ashkenazy's etudes, and, although I typically compare all other versions of a piece to his, his just can't compare to Perahia's.    

Ashkenazy recorded the etudes more than once - try and find the recording he made when he was 17, it is by far his best (although the disc is now quite rare).

(I have heard that Argerich's are very amazing, but does she have a complete recording of the etudes?)

I have only heard her play op.10/1 and op.10/4, although there are a couple more she plays I think (unrecorded). Unfortunately there is no complete set from her  ,
Ed

[Noah]

Pollini's set is good too.

[eddie92099]

I'm listening to Cziffra's a lot at the moment,
Ed

[cziffra]

good work, ed.  

Why oh why does everyone forget opus 25 # 4?  I DEFINITELY rate this harder than 10 # 2 because at least 10 # 2 is simple to practice, it just takes a long time to be able to perform it well.  25 # 4 is much more difficult to practice AND it takes a long time to be able to perform it well.  there is simply no easy way of committing such a vast number of jumps, accurately, into your muscle memory.  

i also find 10 # 6 much more difficult than most- the jumps that are expected of the right hand, while maintaing a smooth legato, without the pedal, at the appropriate speed, with the semiquavers of the lower fingers suitably quiter, with musicality ontop of all that, is next to impossible.  and those chords on the second page- i feel like a duck with this damn webbing.

[allchopin]

Agreed #4 is indeed a hard one, but it is not nearly as important to literature as the others, and generally isn't as popular.  But I would have to still say that #2 Is the harder of the two- it requires, as you know, playing constant chromatic scales with the outer fingers, while playing chords with the inner fingers every fourth note- insane.  I really have never attempted it, but it's so intimidating, you know?

[cziffra]

i've been playing both for a year and they're STILL intimidating

[meiting]

Hey Thrac, let's see some videos huh

You... don't want to see him play. It's scary. It scared the sh*t out of me when I first saw him play octaves. DAMN....

mt

Btw, i HAVE recorded and played all of them, and am in the process of making an edition of them... but I guess that was a misunderstanding and all.. damn. hahaha

[guven]

Oh, my apologies.

I did indeed misinterpret your post, Guven, as nils said. My apologies indeed!

Sorry, again.

No problem..

[rvPianist]

I learned Etudes Op 10/1 and Op 10/2 about 2 years into my piano experience. In all sincere honesty, I haven't found 10.2 that difficult, having memorised and played it almost to speed for jury. 10/1 too, wasn't all that hard, and my span is only a 9th comfortably. I have wide palms (I mention that detail, should it clarify anything). With both pieces though, the "men from the boys" distinction I feel is being able to play them at prescribed tempo, which indeed takes time.

On the other hand, I have found 10/4 difficult in terms of notes - constant practice eventually engrains the positions into your hands and arms, as with 10/5. In my opinion, 25/11 is one of the hardest - sooo many notes per beat, awkward right hand, and it's not a short etude either. Has anyone heard Andrei Gavrilov play this though - tears through it as if winter came in a hurry...

But as with any other work - constant and deliberate practice eventually pays off. Patience is the key...

[cziffra]

you played the op 10 # 2 almost to speed 2 years into your piano experience?

did elvis like it when you played it for him on his planet?

[rvPianist]

you played the op 10 # 2 almost to speed 2 years into your piano experience?

did elvis like it when you played it for him on his planet?

I'm not 10 or 12 years old, and my hands are strong enough to handle repetitive nature of this etude. And yes, after about 2 years, I played 10/2 and etude 10/1, 10/1 at closer to tempo than 10/2. I'm not sure why, but earlier on, I learned alot of notes very quickly from many different pieces...If you've seen my "First Post" post, then you'll see that I've played for about 4 years solid, in the midst of 6 years total. Am trying to build my technique again, but the climb is alot harder this time around.

I'm sure you've played for alot longer. Please see my Brahms exercises post on this board, and help me with the question I had. I'd appreciate any constructive input.

Elvis? Elvis is dead!  

[BoliverAllmon]

I myself have only been playing for a year and ran through the 10/1 etude before (did not play it up to speed or learn it at all). I didn't find it terribly difficult. To me timing is the hardest part about pieces minus the musicality. The timing on the etude wasn't hard. I can see if someone is a great memorizer and has natural technique then it could be done in the first 2 years.

boliver

[steinway88]

Your forgetting my favorite etude the no12 op10. It has both arpeggiation an chromatics in the left hand.

[Chitch]

I think these are the hardest...
Op. 10:
1. 2
2. 9
3. 4

Op. 25
1. 7
2. 11
3. 6

[allchopin]

#9 Op. 10?  #7 Op. 25?  Why these? They are considered the easiest, and I know from experience (#9 at least).  #7 has only 2 large runs in the left hand, one of which is just chromatic.  I think #7 Op. 10 is always being forgotten.

[Chitch]

#9 Op. 10?  #7 Op. 25?  Why these? They are considered the easiest,

I'd love to hear everyone who said those etudes were easy perform them with the correct dynamics and technique. It's so easy to talk.

[allchopin]

Who says I haven't?  If there are any that need beatuiful touch in performance, they are #3 Op. 10 and #6 Op. 10.  They are certainly hard, but how can you possibly compare simple, slower notes (overall) + dynamics with fast, chromatic thirds (#6 Op. 25) + dynamics?  The equation just isn't equal (if you look at it "mathematically").

[Chitch]

That's nice, let's look at it "musically", lol. Dynamically Op.10 No. 9 and Op. 25 No. 7 are the hardest (IMO, you can argue that all day and my answer wouldn't change). If the two peices are easy for you to master both dynamically and technically that's great! I'll just go on and tell you how easy the Winter Wind etude was, which just happens to be on your "hard" list.

[allchopin]

You must have some amazing thirds...

[steinway88]

I think all of the chopin etudes cant be considered hard or easy. All of the etudes dosen't test one technique. Etude 1 of the opus 10 tests arpeggiation and conecting the lines, the second tests chromatic, the third tests weight distrubution and so on.So there realy is no easy one.

[c_vince]

Best advice is to get a good cd  and listen to all 3  ... and pick the one you love. If you love it, they will too.

Now my 2 cents ...
10 #4 is more flash than music.

25 #1 and 10 #12 are both fantastic and justifiably overplayed. I prefer 25 #1 to 10 #12 for the sweetness of it.  I also think 24#1 is a bit easier. The main challange is touch, not notes. You learn the basic motif in bar 1 and apply it all over the keyboard. But it will take you perhaps more time to perfect.

10 #12 is (forgive me for saying it) not as hard as it looks. The left hand ... how to put it ... just feels comfortable once it clicks for you. Similar feeling I got with 10#5 ... guess thats why its 'easy' (tongue in cheek). Your task of developing all the drama the piece demands from the right hand chords is more musically daunting.  Imagine playing 10#12 in left hand octaves ...
its been done!

Cheers,
Scott

Its ironic how I make a post speaking of how technically difficult it is to play op.10/#12, and people here say its very easy.  I guess everyone here at this forum is quite advanced.. Personally, 10/#12 is the first Chopin Etude I have ever played... I'm probably not as advanced as alot of you... or maybe I play it incorrectly

Are you all playing the thing up to the tempo Chopin indicated?

[andyng85]

Hi guys..

I'm gettin' ready for 2nd year uni biochem.  I'm an ok pianist.  I'm looking to start a chopin etude for a warm up piece that will also improve my techniques.  I've heard beautiful things about them.  Here's my reperatoire if you want to see my skill level:

Waldstein sonata
Chopin ballade 1 and 4
Rach prelude op23/2
liszt transcendental etude No. 11 harmonie du soir

also can you rank them 1 being the easiest 10 being the hardest?

for my reperatoire, I don't need a chopin etude, but as I said I want to learn one as a warm up piece that'll improve my general techniques..  2nd year university will allow me about 1 hr of practicing per day sadly....  can u suggest any that'll be about the level of difficulty of my reperatoire?  and can u please rank that also?

[Medtner]

Andy,

Depends on what kind of warmup you want. Like Steinway said, do you want to warm up with "arpeggiation and conecting the lines, chromatic, weight distrubution and so on."

I have to agree with Steinway. I personally believe that all the etudes are difficult but in different ways. Thus, "ETUDE" (did you notice the name!). Don't approach any of them like they're easy. Approach them like a challenge. If you think it's easy, then you haven't found its challenge. If it really IS easy, then focus on making that etude absolutely perfect.

I hope that Meiting could write more about his experience playing all of the etudes, especially the learning process. I'm very interested in his practice method as his repertoire is very large.

I play the following:
10-1, 2
25-1, 6, 11
2nd of 3 posthumous

[rhapsody7900]

Hrm.. all this talk about hardest/easiest - haven't heard #2 op.25 mentioned -  I was under the impression that that was the easiest.

Didn't Horowitz once say that #1 op.10 was unplayable?  How strange.