10 hardest Beethoven sonata movements

[airasia]

I know there's enough of these "hardest" topics, but this one hasn't been done (to my knowledge) and I would like to see a general consensus.  Remember, I'm talking about individual movements here.

[kelly_kelly]

Maybe Hammerklavier 4th?

[rob47]

the last movement of op. 2 #3

true.

[apion]

All the ones with fugues, plus Waldstein mvts 1 and 3.

[airasia]

no one can provide a list of 10 in order? 

[mikey6]

no one can provide a list of 10 in order? 

Why? Hardest how? In terms of notes, or musicality or stamina? what's hard to one person?
probably hammerklavier 4th for notes, waldstein 3rd for stamina (although, you generally don't perform 1 movt, so over the whole sonata, probably again op.106), musically, probably op.111 2nd movt.

[mrdaveux]

Let me try that one (from hardest to easiest) :

1- Hammerklavier 4th
2- Hammerklavier 1st
3- op.111 2nd
4- Appassionata 3rd
5- op.109 3rd
6- Waldstein 3rd
7- op.111 1st
8- Appassionata 1st
9- op.110 3rd
10- op.3 3rd

[airasia]

Let me try that one (from hardest to easiest) :

1- Hammerklavier 4th
2- Hammerklavier 1st
3- op.111 2nd
4- Appassionata 3rd
5- op.109 3rd
6- Waldstein 3rd
7- op.111 1st
8- Appassionata 1st
9- op.110 3rd
10- op.3 3rd

thank you for the straightforward response, like i said i just want to see a general consensus cause I've never seen one of this category before.  Of course people find different things difficult, and I know the whole sonata is usually played, and there's musical difficulty opposed to technical difficulty, etc.,  but I'm just asking what movements you find hardest, plain and simple.

[soliloquy]

I'd say the 3rd-4th-5th movement (also referred to as the third movement) of the Op. 109 in E Major is the second hardest.  Obviously the fugue from the Hammerklavier is the toughest.

[bflatminor24]

I would say every movement of the Hammerklavier. It is so difficult musically and texturally, and the technical challenges are present in every moment except the Adagio. Next I would say the entire Op. 110 in A flat major. The fugue in this piece is insane!

Late Beethoven is very complex and I would probably group the last four sonatas together in terms of difficulty. Not quite there yet myself...

[etudes]

not really in order
1- Hammerklavier 4th
2- Hammerklavier 1st
3- op.111 2nd
4- last movement from op.101
5- op.109 3rd
6- Waldstein 3rd
7- op.111 1st
8- Appassionata 1st
9- op.110 3rd
10- op.2 no. 3 3rd



first movement of op.81a is difficult to play good (i get bored with many of my friends who play it)

[kriskicksass]

I'd say the 3rd-4th-5th movement (also referred to as the third movement) of the Op. 109 in E Major is the second hardest.  Obviously the fugue from the Hammerklavier is the toughest.

I'm learning this sonata and I'm curious as to why you say that the third movement is actually three movements in one. Granted, Beethoven does use quite a few double bar lines (I think 5, but my score is upstairs and I'm too lazy to go check), but these don't divide the movement into smaller movements. This movement is cast too perfectly into the form of a baroque theme and variations for something as trivial as a double bar line to break its unity.

(Also, it's comforting to know that people consider this one of the hardest movements in the Beethoven sonatas. It's been giving me loads of trouble and I've been getting flack from my teacher for not learning it as quickly as he thinks I should.)

[desordre]

 Hi there!
 As far as I know (cause I didn't play yet all the sonatas), the list by Mr. Mrdaveux is made just of very hard pieces of music. Anyway, I have to agree with Mr. Mikey:

(...)what's hard to one person?(...)

The point is difficult: we're talking about a very advanced repertory. Two pianists who can actually play it will never have the same background (both knowledge & technique) and physical apparatus, and so will probably never have the same opinion about a rank.
 To myself (and this is not an original answer at all) the most hard sonata is the opus 106, especially (as mentioned) its 1st and 4th movements. On the other hand, I never found opus 53  that difficult, even its 3rd.
One remark, to Mr. Mrdaveux : "easiest" is a far from appropriate term for these movements, don't you think? 

[verywellmister]

1- Hammerklavier 4th
2- Hammerklavier 1st
3- op.111 2nd
4- last movement from op.101
5- op.109 3rd
6- Waldstein 3rd
7- op.111 1st
8- op.110 4th
9- Appassionata 1st
10- op.2 no. 3 4th or Op.109 2nd

I agree Op.81a is hard.  i don't have any experience with Op.7 (and why is this considered hard).

[etudes]

nobody mentioned op.101?   

[verywellmister]

1- Hammerklavier 4th
2- Hammerklavier 1st
3- op.111 2nd
4- last movement from op.101
5- op.109 3rd
6- Waldstein 3rd
7- op.111 1st
8- op.110 4th
9- Op.109 2nd
10- Op.101 1st

[Kassaa]

Third movement from the Appassionata is technically more difficult than the first movement., imo.

[zheer]

Third movement from the Appassionata is technically more difficult than the first movement., imo.

  Agreed, i was playing through the first MVT of the appassionata this morning and thinking that its a lot easiser than the 3rd MVT.

[zheer]

Third movement from the Appassionata is technically more difficult than the first movement., imo.

  Agreed, i was playing through the first MVT of the appassionata this morning and thinking that its a lot easiser than the 3rd MVT. But still difficult to play well, takes a lot of work its a big sonata.

[pianochild]

Ive always thought that moonlight 3rd movement is quite a hard one to play fast enough, and could be in the top 10 (only when played good enought though)

[zheer]

 The last five sonatas are among the most difficult piano  sonatas by Beethoven.

[phil13]

Ive always thought that moonlight 3rd movement is quite a hard one to play fast enough, and could be in the top 10 (only when played good enought though)

please tell me you didn't mean that. 

Moonlight doesn't even come close to this stuff.

Here's my list (after the first 2 or 3, not in any particular order):

1. Op.106 4th
2. Op.111 2nd
3. Op.106 1st
4. Op.101 4th
5. Op.53 3rd
6. Op.109 3rd
7. Op.57 3rd
8. Op.110 4th
9. Op.111 1st
10. Op. 101 1st

Interesting how most of them are final movements in all of the lists so far.

Phil

[mephisto]

please tell me you didn't mean that. 

Moonlight doesn't even come close to this stuff.

Here's my list (after the first 2 or 3, not in any particular order):

1. Op.106 4th
2. Op.111 2nd
3. Op.106 1st
4. Op.101 4th
5. Op.53 3rd
6. Op.109 3rd
7. Op.57 3rd
8. Op.110 4th
9. Op.111 1st
10. Op. 101 1st

Interesting how most of them are final movements in all of the lists so far.

Phil

Laughable.

[phil13]

Laughable.

Meaning...

Phil

[mephisto]

Your list is wrong.

[phil13]

Well then, since you obviously have the answer we're looking for, why don't you provide a better one?

BTW, While you're at it, note that mine is not a ranking, just a random list. Meaning they aren't in any order. Meaning your response is moot. Would you feel better about it if I removed the numbers?

I haven't played all of them, not even close. Have you? I don't think anybody here has played them all. Thus, the question is being answered by uninformed people voicing their opinions, such as myself, and no real ranking will be correct.

So go ahead and make my day, since you seem to know so much about this topic.

Phil

[etudes]

I haven't played all of them, not even close. Have you? I don't think anybody here has played them all. Thus, the question is being answered by uninformed people voicing their opinions, such as myself, and no real ranking will be correct.

So go ahead and make my day, since you seem to know so much about this topic.

Phil

please don't underestimate pianists around here

[mephisto]

Well then, since you obviously have the answer we're looking for, why don't you provide a better one?

BTW, While you're at it, note that mine is not a ranking, just a random list. Meaning they aren't in any order. Meaning your response is moot. Would you feel better about it if I removed the numbers?

I haven't played all of them, not even close. Have you? I don't think anybody here has played them all. Thus, the question is being answered by uninformed people voicing their opinions, such as myself, and no real ranking will be correct.

So go ahead and make my day, since you seem to know so much about this topic.

Phil

First mwt of 101 is not among the 10 hardest mwts of any Beethoven sonata.

[verywellmister]

Op.109 3rd mvt is def harder than any movement of Op.57

[fiasco]

Did Beethoven write this thing they call the OC because I hear that's the hardest piece ever written ha ha ha

Seriously though, there's nothing laughable about 3rd movt Moonlight sonata, it takes an incredible amout of stamina and concentration to play it right.  I've never played Waldstein or Hammerklav but they certainly sound more difficult.  I have played the Pathetique, Tempest, and 3rd movt Appasionata and would say the Moonlight has given me more trouble than those.

[nanabush]

K fine, the Moonlight [may] be harder than the others you mentioned... that still doesnt rank it as one of the top 10, not by a longshot 

[phil13]

First mwt of 101 is not among the 10 hardest mwts of any Beethoven sonata.

I'm still waiting for a ranking...I suppose I could put Op.2 No.3 there instead.

Phil

[mephisto]

I'm still waiting for a ranking...I suppose I could put Op.2 No.3 there instead.

Phil

¨
Sorry for this late answer.

But yes op.2 No,3 should be there instead.

[phil13]

Okay, that's settled then. 

Phil

[transitional]

Haven't played many, so this is mostly speculative.

1. Hammerklavier 4th
2. Hammerklavier 1st
3. Op. 101 4th
4. Op. 111 1st
5. Op. 109 3rd
6. Waldstein 3rd
7. Grand Op. 7 1st
8. Op. 110 3rd
9. Appassionata 3rd
10. Op. 101 2nd