bye bye conspiracy

[BoliverAllmon]

https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060516/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/sept_11_video

[musik_man]

Evidence doesn't matter at all to conspiracy theorists.  They'll still believe that Bush instigated 9/11, that we never landed on the moon and other such nonsense.

[thracozaag]

https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060516/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/sept_11_video

  I still want to see the footage taken by the gas station across the street (which was immediately confiscated).

koji

[jason2711]

I can't believe it took more than four years for the CIA to manufacture that video.  Such an over-paid and inefficient organisation.





Seriously though, seeing things like this, when they slip to the back of my memory, sicken me when I think what's actually happening.

[prometheus]

I saw that footage years ago. Actually Bernard once posted it on this forum. Plus, there is no frame with the plane on it. The first frame already shows an explosion.

Plus, I think that all 'conspiracy theories' are about foreknowledge of the planned attack. The other ones are 'nut theories'.

I once read this article: https://www.cooperativeresearch.org/essay.jsp?article=essayaninterestingday

This article proposes some interesting questions that it claims were never answered. If someone can please help me.

As for real conspiracy theories. They are like faith in God. They cannot be falsified and thus they are never refuted. Some people will always support them.

[alwaystheangel]

so what is the consiracy?  The pentagon blew up the pentagon , blamed Sadam to get the oil by saying there were weapons of mass destruction...?

[BoliverAllmon]

Bush apparently sent a missile into the pentagon to start crap and give a reason to go get our oil.

[letters]

i watched a convincing video on some random site (cant remember where it was) that it was a missile.... when you look at the size and pefect shape of the hole in the pentagon and how there was no fuselage whatsoever found on the site you do start to wonder...

[prometheus]

Apperently the fuselage fragmented into a 'ball' and penetrated inside the pentagon.

Read the link I posted instead and read about the many different stories Bush officials tell about when Bush was told about the first plane. And start to wonder what the hell was going on in Air Force One.

[musik_man]

i watched a convincing video on some random site (cant remember where it was) that it was a missile.... when you look at the size and pefect shape of the hole in the pentagon and how there was no fuselage whatsoever found on the site you do start to wonder...

It's not quite as simple as that.  An airplane doesn't leave a cartoonish airplane shaped hole in a building.

[musik_man]

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

Popular Mechanics takes down 9/11 Conspiracy theories.

[thracozaag]

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

Popular Mechanics takes down 9/11 Conspiracy theories.

 Guess who funded those studies, heh.

koji

[BoliverAllmon]

Guess who funded those studies, heh.

koji

that is what makes conspiracers so funny. You can show them some evidence against what they think and they claim it is false. Someone has to be making that stuff up. LOL

[BoliverAllmon]

to answer your question koji.

Air Crash Analysis
Cleveland Center regional air traffic control

Bill Crowley special agent, FBI

Ron Dokell president, Demolition Consultants

Richard Gazarik staff writer, Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

Yates Gladwell pilot, VF Corp.

Michael K. Hynes, Ed.D.,
ATP, CFI, A&P/IA president, Hynes Aviation Services; expert, aviation crashes

Ed Jacoby Jr. director,
New York State Emergency Management Office (Ret.); chairman, New York State Disaster Preparedness Commission (Ret.)

Johnstown-Cambria County Airport Authority

Cindi Lash staff writer, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Matthew McCormick manager, survival factors division, National Transportation Safety Board (Ret.)

Wallace Miller coroner, Somerset County, PA

Robert Nagan meteorological technician, Climate Services Branch, National Climatic Data Center

Dave Newell director, aviation and travel, VF Corp.

James O’Toole politics editor, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Pennsylvania State Police Public Information Office

Jeff Pillets senior writer,
The Record, Hackensack, NJ

Jeff Rienbold director, Flight 93 National Memorial, National Park Service

Dennis Roddy staff writer, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Master Sgt. David Somdahl public affairs officer,
119th Wing, North Dakota
Air National Guard

Mark Stahl photographer; eyewitness, United Airlines Flight 93 crash scene

Air Defense
Lt. Col. Skip Aldous (Ret.) squadron commander,
U.S. Air Force

Tech. Sgt. Laura Bosco public affairs officer,
Tyndall Air Force Base

Boston Center regional air traffic control

Laura Brown spokeswoman,
Federal Aviation Administration

Todd Curtis, Ph.D. founder, Airsafe.com; president, Airsafe.com Foundation

Keith Halloway public affairs officer, National Transportation Safety Board

Ted Lopatkiewicz director, public affairs, National Transportation Safety Board

Maj. Douglas Martin public affairs officer,
North American Aerospace Defense Command

Lt. Herbert McConnell public affairs officer,
Andrews AFB

Michael Perini public affairs officer, North American Aerospace Defense Command

John Pike director, GlobalSecurity.org

Hank Price spokesman, Federal
Aviation Administration

Warren Robak RAND Corp.

Bill Shumann spokesman,
Federal Aviation Administration

Louis Walsh public affairs officer, Eglin AFB

Chris Yates aviation security editor, analyst, Jane’s Transport

Aviation
Fred E.C. Culick, Ph.D., S.B., S.M. professor of aeronautics, California Institute of Technology

Robert Everdeen public affairs, Northrop Grumman

Clint Oster professor of public and environmental affairs, Indiana University; aviation safety expert

Capt. Bill Scott (Ret. USAF) Rocky Mountain bureau chief, Aviation Week
 Bill Uher News Media Office, NASA Langley Research Center

Col. Ed Walby (Ret. USAF)
director, business development, HALE Systems Enterprise, Unmanned Systems, Northrop Grumman

Image Analysis
William F. Baker member, FEMA Probe Team; partner, Skidmore, Owings, Merrill

W. Gene Corley, Ph.D., P.E., S.E. senior vice president, CTL Group; director,
FEMA Probe Team

Bill Daly senior vice president, Control Risks Group

Steve Douglass image analysis consultant, Aviation Week

Thomas R. Edwards, Ph.D. founder, TREC; video forensics expert.

Ronald Greeley, Ph.D. professor of geology, Arizona State University

Rob Howard freelance photographer; WTC eyewitness

Robert L. Parker, Ph.D. professor of geophysics,
University of California, San Diego

Structural Engineering / Building Collapse
Farid Alfawakhiri, Ph.D. senior engineer, American Institute of Steel Construction

David Biggs, P.E. structural engineer, Ryan-Biggs Associates; member, ASCE team for FEMA report

Robert Clarke structural engineer, Controlled Demolitions Group Ltd.

Glenn Corbett technical editor, Fire Engineering; member, NIST advisory committee

Vincent Dunn deputy fire chief (Ret.), FDNY; author, The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety

John Fisher, Ph.D. professor of civil engineering, Lehigh University; professor emeritus, Center for Advanced Technology; member, FEMA Probe Team

Ken Hays executive vice president, Masonry Arts

Christoph Hoffmann, Ph.D. professor of computer science, Purdue University; project director, September 11 Pentagon Attack Simulations Using LS-Dyna, Purdue University

Allyn E. Kilsheimer, P.E.
CEO, KCE Structural Engineers PC; chief structural engineer, Phoenix project; expert in blast recovery, concrete structures, emergency response

Won-Young Kim, Ph.D. seismologist, Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University

William Koplitz photo desk manager, FEMA

John Labriola freelance photographer, WTC survivor

Arthur Lerner-Lam, Ph.D. seismologist; director,
Earth Institute, Center for Hazards and Risk Research, Columbia University

James Quintiere, Ph.D. professor of engineering, University of Maryland member, NIST advisory committee

Steve Riskus freelance photographer; eyewitness, Pentagon crash

Van Romero, Ph.D. vice president, New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology

Christine Shaffer spokesperson, Viracon

Mete Sozen, Ph.D., S.E. Kettelhut Distinguished Professor of Structural Engineering, Purdue University; member, Pentagon Building Performance Report; project conception, September 11 Pentagon Attack Simulations Using LS-Dyna, Purdue University

Shyam Sunder, Sc.D.
acting deputy director, lead investigator, Building and Fire Research Laboratory, National Institute of Standards and Technology

Mary Tobin science writer, media relations, Earth Institute, Columbia University

Forman Williams, Ph.D. professor of engineering, physics, combustion, University of California,
San Diego; member, advisory committee, National Institute of Standards and Technology
 

that is the sources of info.

[musik_man]

Guess who funded those studies, heh.

koji

I'm pretty sure Popular Mechanics isn't funded by the government.

Did you read it?  I just finished my sophmore year of an Engineering degree, and all the answers in Popular Mechanics make alot more sense than the conspiracy theorists objections.  Although, I have to admit, the idea that dozens of engineering PHDs are complicit in mass murder does make alot of sense...

[thracozaag]

 Believe whatever it is to help you sleep at night.

koji

[henrah]

Then a chocolate cake will make me a humungous breakfast tomorrow.


I only want to sleep well....

[jlh]

What I want to see:

1. The gas station video that was confiscated by feds.
2. Any physical evidence AT ALL that shows that a plane actually struck the pentagon (including wreckage from a plane).
3. An explanation of why a plane with enough jet fuel to produce an 86,000,000 BTU fire and burn for several days is not hot enough to incinerate a computer monitor just inches from the opening in the wall.  Other pictures clearly show a wooden stool with a book opened and sitting on top in an office that was also inches from the damage.
4. A better surveillance video.  Come on, it's the PENTAGON!  Every inch of that place is under close surveillance by MANY cameras.  Where are the hallway cameras?  Why is there NO video that has a plane in it?  Even the vids that the feds released don't clearly show a plane.
5. Evidence that the soil by the pentagon was involved in a major hazardous materials removal project, which is federally mandated for jet fuel leak/spill/crash etc.

Where's the plane?  Can anyone answer me that?  No doubt flight 77 went down, but where is the actual plane?  I have seen no actual wreckage from that flight.  

I'm not saying I believe what conspiracy theorists spout out about this tragedy, but I'm personally curious, as I believe we all are.  There are a lot of unanswered questions and some things just don't make sense to me.

[BoliverAllmon]

then where do you think the plane went?

[prometheus]

I already said that the plane is fragmented and is inside the building.

The real questions are: Why did Cheney make up security threats to prevent Bush from going to Washington? and When was the president first told about the first plane?

[jlh]

I already said that the plane is fragmented and is inside the building.

So the plane 'fragmented'?  Have you seen many plane crashes?  757's don't do that to the degree that there wouldn't be any recognizable portions left.  Plus there's not a shred of proof to back up that claim.  Show me a photo with the plane in it.  Your other questions are definitely valid.

Check these vids out:

Part 1 -

Part 2 -

Part 3 -

[jlh]

then where do you think the plane went?

Good question...  If I had better proof to debunk the claims by people who say the plane didn't crash into the pentagon (but that it was a missile attack instead) I would say the plane struck the pentagon and I'd be happy with that conclusion.  As it stands now, I've seen better and more evidence to the contrary. 

If, in fact flight 77 didn't crash into the pentagon, I WOULD like to know where it is.  Where would it be in that case?

[prometheus]

The pentagon is not an ordinary building. It is like a medieval castle. It has very very thick walls of high strenght concrete.

If a plane would hit the pentagon the only damage made would be that by it's engines. The wings and the tail would be very weak compared to the concrete and just snap off and pulverise. They would then follow into the hole made by the engines.

The only question is about the fuel. I am not sure if and how much fuel the plane had. But if the solution to the problem will be an unexplained fuel dump then this is believable eventhough there seems to be no proof.


This works like science. You can discredit a theory, the theory we have. But you also need to replace it with a new one. And a missile hitting the pentagon has more problems than a plane hitting the pentagon.

As for a missile. A cruise missile has little power. A 'bunker buster' is a bomb. A maverick missile, maybe. I am no expect on this. But how could they risk fireing a missile at the pentagon? Surely you can't risk that. And why would they take that risk?

Even if it is unlikely. That's normal. Unlikely things happen every second. The whole universe is build on unlikeliness.

Discovery Channel made a docu on this crash. Try to get it off Edonkey or something.

As for real questions, read the link I provided. I am not sure if these are answered since I did not do any research on it but maybe someone can comment on them.

And youtube links:

[musik_man]

So the plane 'fragmented'?  Have you seen many plane crashes?  757's don't do that to the degree that there wouldn't be any recognizable portions left.  Plus there's not a shred of proof to back up that claim.  Show me a photo with the plane in it.  Your other questions are definitely valid.

Check these vids out:

Part 1 -

Part 2 -

Part 3 -

Normal plane crashes don't slam into the outside of a heavily armored building.

I haven't siad it yet, so I'l go ahead and state this.  The best reason not to believe in conspiracy theories is that people can't keep secrets.  Recall the dozens of leaks from the CIA and state department over the past year.  These programs were defensible and still got leaked.  The idea that the government could pull off things like a fake moon landing and the largest terrorist attack in our history and keep them quiet is ridiculous.

https://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html
This dissects the moon conspiracy theories.

[edit] I'd also like to add that it makes little sense to believe that the US is behind the Pentagon attacks if it wasn't behind the WTC attacks.  The WTC's would give more than enough justification for any attack the US wanted to pull.  Attacking the Pentagon would accomplish nothing other than hurting our military.(unless they loaded all the people who knew into that wing of the Pentagon... )  Either you argue that the US was behind all of the attacks or none.  And arguing that we pulled off the WTC attacks is much less defensible than the Pentagon attacks.

[prometheus]

Finally we can agree

[anekdote]

Even the Manhattan project couldn't keep its secrets (Klaus Fuchs, Theodore Hall). To think that conspiracies can exist without getting leaked is naive.

[rimv2]

Even the Manhattan project couldn't keep its secrets (Klaus Fuchs, Theodore Hall). To think that conspiracies can exist without getting leaked is naive.

The only secret of the manhattan project was that if we didnt do it first someones else would have and thats no big secret at all and im just making a rambling sentence cuz im tired

[prometheus]

To think that conspiracies can exist without getting leaked is naive.

Conspiracies do exist.

[alwaystheangel]

Conspiracies do exist.

They're watching us.....

[prometheus]

I am not saying all those conspiracy theories are true. But it is a fact that people conspire together.

I mean, most people that break the law don't do this alone. They make an agreement with other people to do so. This is a conspiracy.

And if you don't use it in the juridical way you can say that corporations conspire against us to take our money.