depression due to competition

[jamie0168]

Please tell me that I'm not the only one who gets depressed when I hear pianists that are my age or younger who are so much better than I am. I know that it's a situation that I need to get used to because there's always going to be someone better and someone who's not so good. But it would be nice if I could look at it a different way that would make me feel not so depressed.
I admit that I've always been very competitive and I came from a small town where I was pretty much the "best" pianist in town. Then, I left and was exposed to these teenage pianists who'd already won international competitions.
How do you guys deal with this kind of situation? What's your attitude towards this kind of inbound competition/comparison?

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

I know that there are dozens of pianists that are much better than met as of current and that are my age. Alone, that doesn't depress me. However, if my parents let's say, or others, for that matter, saw me play and then him, of course I will be depressed as there is no doubt about the tension in the air conserning the audiences judgemental though on our current level differences.

[debussy symbolism]

Just to add, the depression actually pushes me to practice more, and better to improve.

[pianokid16]

once i played the mozart piano concerto 17 solo then right after this guy who is 2 years younger than me came and played it wayyyyyyy better and my whole family and piano teacher was there. that was prety depressing..

[lostinidlewonder]

If you went through your entire life thinking you are the best in the world at piano, then you will not achieve your potential. It is like The Tortoise and the Hare story. If we determine our ability at anything by comparing ourselves with other people, is this really an accurate measure of your achievement? I don't think so and there are a few reasons.

First of all everyone starts out life in different situations, some people have more money than others, some people are brought up in a very musical environment, some people are not, there are infinite different environments we can be brought up in and each environment offers us different challenges. Also each of us are created differently, with different emotions, aspirations, determination, we all have different sized bodies, different hand sizes, different strengths and weaknesses at learning. We all are faced with different challenges in life and at different moments in time. All these things and much more effect our ability to achieve.

Take a moment and think about the geniuses which the world never heard of. There are countless numbers of these throughout time, hidden away from the public eye. These people never had opportunity (or thought) to show the world their ability. You on the other hand have all the chance in the world to do whatever you want! Such freedom doesn't exist everywhere in this world. Shake yourself out of your comparison and jealousy cycle and start thinking how lucky you are to be able to actually study music.

If you watch some youngster play amazingly over the keyboard be glad that they can do it. Just because they can do it well (maybe better than you in your mind) doesn't take away anything from your chances to succeed in life with your music. Simply beacuse being able to play any instrument well is a rarity, maybe one in ten thousand (or more!) people can play an instrument at a masters level. The ability to produce sound is a gift given to many of us. It is true you are given a rare gift, but it is not unique. What makes it unique is your effort, your determination, your own personal journey through music from the beginning of your musical life until you stop and never play again. This is a unique path, no one has taken this exact same journey as yourself, you should hold that close to you because that is what will make you a real musician, and no one can take that away from.

Using comparison to motivate yourself to get better will do you no justice. It distracts you from what you should be thinking about which is in all simplicity: sound production. It is all about sound nothing else (if your physical technique fails then the sound fails, but if your physical technique is strong this does not necessarily mean that the sound production is strong.), everything outside of this is just going to distract you and take time away from your journey through music.

If you see someones hands move more effortlessly than yourself over the keyboard doing "complicated" passages you yourself should ask the question why is it so? This is not using unthoughtful comparison to better yourself, instead you are observing someones technique and considering how that could be used in your own playing. Observation and learning is not comparison in my mind. Comparison is when you say simply, oh they are better I am worse, I better work hard to get better. This is mindless and useless. But if you try to answer why you think they are better and use that to better your own technique, then the comparison is constructive.

[jamie0168]

Wow, that was thorough and made alot of sense  This helps me alot. I'll be going to an international piano festival (Piano Texas, to be specific) and I'll be surrounded by pianists of all levels. It'll be a perfect chance to practice these principles that you've described. Thank you.

[lostinidlewonder]

I'll be going to an international piano festival (Piano Texas, to be specific) and I'll be surrounded by pianists of all levels.

This is really good at any stage of your life to be near those who excel in areas of your interest. They all have something to teach you and you them, whether people are humbled enough to appreciate this is another story.

Even the best pianist in the world can learn something by watching a beginner play the piano. With music you should always be observant, if people play worse than you don't disregard them, watch them closely ask questions about the playing and try to answer their challenges and strengths (I guess that is the natural teacher instinct in me.) But I feel offended when people smirk or laugh at someones playing, because it is like saying, Oh I never ever play pieces roughly, I always played at the best levels my whole life, it is arrogance.

Nevertheless you will meet people like this, some musicians are really stuck up and have no idea, they are all absorbed in their own sense of superiority whether they do this directly or passive agressively (which is more often the case). But they all have something to teach you no matter how they act, so how they act really is unimportant to yourself. Even if you are disgusted in other people you still can sap all the knowledge you can from watching them play. They cannot stop you! Whenever I am surrounded by great musicians I am always quiet and listening more than talking. I like to absorb information, right or wrong (in my mind) and process that and consider how can I use it. We learn huge amounts this way just by watching and listening, I think I have learnt a lot just watching masters of the piano play piano without them even knowing it.

Remember you will always get better at your instrument, never think that you are at a level which doesn't change. How you play today you will probably laugh at in 10 years time, but you must go through the stages of learning and development which will never ever end.

[panic]

I simply find comfort in the fact that probably 3% of them will ever play Medtner, Alkan, Reger, Godowsky, or almost any composers that are off the road map, whereas that is exactly what I intend to do in later life, to some extent or other.

Their desire to prove that they have skill and are worthy of the public's attention basically negates the possibility of them taking honest steps down that path until a lot later than I will have. That's what I perceive and I may be wrong.

[bench warmer]

Just be grateful this isn't the OLD WEST GUNSLINGER forum. You would never get a chance to improve if you were in a competition w/  someone "better" than you. 
 
Some are always more talented or gifted. That's the reality.  It's an old cliche' but if you're in the game, you can only play w/ the hand(s) you're dealt with.

[jamie0168]

Well, it happened again today during my lesson. I was playing a Rachmaninov Prelude, and my teacher (on the side) told me that he heard a prospective student play this exact piece about a week ago. Immdiately, as if it were a reflex, I thought to myself, "Great, someone who's two years younger than me is playing the same pieces as me in the same studio." (Sarcastically,  ofcourse.) To make it worse, he was actually 3 years younger than me.
I know I should be happy for this student in that he must be very talented and "ahead of his time" if you will. So, why am I not happy when I hear about musicians like him? It's not so much that I don't feel happy for him, just mad at myself for not working harder to be at that level. I don't want to go through my entire life being dissappointed in myself just because others are ahead of me. I just don't know how to change my attitude.

[rc]

I simply find comfort in the fact that probably 3% of them will ever play Medtner, Alkan, Reger, Godowsky, or almost any composers that are off the road map, whereas that is exactly what I intend to do in later life, to some extent or other.

Their desire to prove that they have skill and are worthy of the public's attention basically negates the possibility of them taking honest steps down that path until a lot later than I will have. That's what I perceive and I may be wrong.

See now, this isn't so bad as being depressed over talented kids, but it's still not a good attitude. You're trying to take the kids down a notch to make yourself feel better in relation. The thoughts and beliefs we harbour all eventually find external expression, and I would suggest nurturing more productive mindsets than taking others down a notch.

It's true that most will not stick with it long enough to reach the levels you aim for, but you're not the only one aiming that high and you never know what life may bring you.

[rc]

Hey Jamie, I can definitely relate to being surrounded by kids who are better. Let's put it this way: I began learning piano at 19. That should about sum it up .

Here's where I see a problem in your perception:

he must be very talented and "ahead of his time" if you will.

It's not usually the case that a kid is ahead of his time, but more that he's put in more time. The clock moves the same for all of us, and some simply started earlier or put in more effort each day, maybe they have less of a social life or don't get to play much sports because of it, but you can be sure that they all had put in the necessary work to get where they are. As another pianist, you should know what kind of work it takes to learn music. No need for envy, just understand. Go talk music to one of these kids someday, find out where they're coming from, it can be very enlightening.

Just last Fri I was at a little competition, I was the only adult participant, everyone else was varying degrees of 'younger' (BTW, I'm now absolutely convinced that the myth of children being less emotional in their playing is pure BS)... Whenever someone does a great job, better than I could do, first I'm kind of pround of them, thinkinging "wow, she really did a great job, it must have taken a lot of effort and determination to reach that level!". Then in relation to myself, I just think "if I keep at it, and put in enough work, one day in the future I can have that myself". It's inspiring to think of it as your own future destination, the price is persistance.

The difference in your situation Jamie is that you were the proverbial 'big fish in a small pond'. So you probably grew up with praise, being the greatest thing around. Not underservingly either, I'm sure you are very good. But it must have inflated your ego, which is now being popped as you leave your small pond and enter the ocean where there are many big fish.  So what you must learn is humility, in order to grow you have to recognize where you currently are and work from there.

There's a term called being 'outcome dependant', which is misleading. In fitness they say that the only road to success is when you replace forced will with enjoyment... If you become less concerned with the outcome of winning or being the best, and focus your energies on enjoying the process while you learn, you will paradoxically get there much faster. It's a zen sort of thing. Detach your ego and rediscover the love of music, that is a much better source of inspiration than pride.

I hope this helps and makes some sense for you.

[rc]

I just thought to add that it's very natural to get sidetracked into the competetive aspect of things, when you're surrounded by it. We all can lose sight of the original goal. So it's useful to remind ourselves from time to time why we're doing this.

[Mozartian]

What do you mean by "better"?

You mean they can play technically more difficult pieces that you can't?

To me, that's not better.

Better is playing something simple, something like a mazurka or a nocturne better- as in more beautifully.

As Kapell said-

"Your means will grow a little from year to year. That is important. How much it grows is not as vital, as that it does grow, and that you can play the music that you perform now with every ounce of spirit and beauty you can bring to it."

It frankly disturbs me that pianists view other pianists as "competition"- what is happening to music? Are people making it into a sport, complete with "tournaments" (competitions)?

Ugh. It makes the entire field so hateful and jealous, so utterly dismal. It takes the focus of the individual pianists off of the music itself and onto outdoing eachother. Is this art?

Do you think Monet painted with the intention of painting better than all his colleagues, to be known as a great artist? No, of course not- he painted to capture beauty and share it with other people. It should be just the same in music, and those who have that attitude, I think, will be artists worthy of the name.

[lisztisforkids]

The other day I saw a 6 year old play a Mozart Concerto... Yes, it does bother me a little bit that there are 6 year olds that are better than me. Nut I dont play music to be better than somebody else, I play because I love it.

[debussy symbolism]

Well, it happened again today during my lesson. I was playing a Rachmaninov Prelude, and my teacher (on the side) told me that he heard a prospective student play this exact piece about a week ago. Immdiately, as if it were a reflex, I thought to myself, "Great, someone who's two years younger than me is playing the same pieces as me in the same studio." (Sarcastically,  ofcourse.) To make it worse, he was actually 3 years younger than me.
I know I should be happy for this student in that he must be very talented and "ahead of his time" if you will. So, why am I not happy when I hear about musicians like him? It's not so much that I don't feel happy for him, just mad at myself for not working harder to be at that level. I don't want to go through my entire life being dissappointed in myself just because others are ahead of me. I just don't know how to change my attitude.

I think that it is good that you have these feelings. I have them too, and I am pretty sure that every one has them to a certain extent. Without the need to be better, we will make no improvement and won't practice sedulously.

[nicco]

What do you mean by "better"?

You mean they can play technically more difficult pieces that you can't?

To me, that's not better.

Better is playing something simple, something like a mazurka or a nocturne better- as in more beautifully.

As Kapell said-

"Your means will grow a little from year to year. That is important. How much it grows is not as vital, as that it does grow, and that you can play the music that you perform now with every ounce of spirit and beauty you can bring to it."

It frankly disturbs me that pianists view other pianists as "competition"- what is happening to music? Are people making it into a sport, complete with "tournaments" (competitions)?

Ugh. It makes the entire field so hateful and jealous, so utterly dismal. It takes the focus of the individual pianists off of the music itself and onto outdoing eachother. Is this art?

Do you think Monet painted with the intention of painting better than all his colleagues, to be known as a great artist? No, of course not- he painted to capture beauty and share it with other people. It should be just the same in music, and those who have that attitude, I think, will be artists worthy of the name.

Couldnt agree more.

[plunkyplink]

Depression due to feelings of competiveness is due to self talk, and a suffering self esteem. If you think and feel that your value as a human is dependent on what you can do, then you'll always be struggling with feelings of inadaquacy. An unhealthy self esteem fluctuates with what's happening around you, what you think people's opinion of you are. A healthy self esteem isn't egotistical or self damning, it's an even line, a comfortable level not dependant on what other's feel or how you feel about others in comparison to yourself.

Competitiveness is not a healthy state of mind. The result of this is what you stated, depression. How can this be good for you? You are driving yourself to depression.

You can solve this by changing your self talk, thus, changing your emotions. Try and see your worth as independant of your ability to perform, your talents, your appearance. Tell yourself simply that you are of equal value as a human being simply because you are human and you exist. Think of others as having equal value as a human being simply because they exist. You are no better or no worse than anyone.

There are many self help books that could probably help you. I'd check into ones that focus on depression and anxiety, they explain the thoughts and feelings process and explain what rational thinking is, competitivenesss is a form of distorted thinking that is quite destructive actually. If you can conquer this type of irrational thinking you'll be much happier, and isn't that what life is all about?

[d.shosty]

Do you think Monet painted with the intention of painting better than all his colleagues, to be known as a great artist? No, of course not- he painted to capture beauty and share it with other people. It should be just the same in music, and those who have that attitude, I think, will be artists worthy of the name.

Very well put!

[walking_encyclopedia]

the way i see it, there will always be better pianists than me (or you). so instead of becoming depressed by that fact, let it become a motivater for you to practice harder and achieve more.

[kaiwin]

Don't worry about it, once you got the Saint-Saens concerto down with a very moving interpretation your good to go 

Motivation, thats what it is that makes you a better pianist.

[pianowelsh]

Well I know I couldnt handle the pressure of being the worl'ds greatest pianists so im glad that there are pianists better than me.  I havent always seen it this way. I remeber feeling very down and forlorn when I started college and even before when I was taking what you would call senior High recital. I suffered from a lack of technical training and consequently the reperotire I was playing wasnt as glitzy as many of my contemporaries. I went through a patch of lessons where I felt really lethargic (not helped by the fact the person in front of me was a competition winner and 2 years younger! - often playin the same pieces) and then my teacher percieved my frustration - i didnt hide it. They said you have to remember that you progress from where youve come from is exceptional and that there are qualities in your playing and musical understanding and appreciation which some of even my most talented students dont have. Technique will come, sometimes slower than for others but technical glitz is skin deep.   I think something you need to remember as you go to these competitions and conservatory is that every single one of these pianists the 'greatest' to the 'least' has teachers who pick faults in them week by week. We all have problems and deficiencies - some are more obvious than others but we are all very self conscious of them and we dont like people to see them. However you need to not let the fear of that stop you from holding your head up high amongst the others. Were all learning! I have to say there was one person I started college with who was very cutting to me after piano classes at first and that made it hard to play in front of everyone, but as I think they ended up about the same level as me in the end and several others dropped out completely so dont take too much notice of what people say. If you love music keep going and perseveing with it and keep looking out for your own growth not so much at others - its a hard lesson to learn but you need to for your own sanity.

[infectedmushroom]

Piano playing isn't even about enjoying it anymore, it seems... It's about to battle with eachother and see who's the best in competitions.

It's kinda sad if you think of it. Competing with the wonderful feeling of music. You've spend so much lonely hours behind the piano, just to reach technical perfection and win that competition. Though, after competing you heard you lost, just cause of that little wrong note in one of the Chopin Etudes... 

[soliloquy]

Nope

[e60m5]

In my opinion (and this will perhaps sound brash to some), if you are faced with such a situation wherein you feel upset due to a younger person playing pieces that you are only just now struggling with (or any such unfavourable comparison), I feel you should question the reason why you play the piano. Do you play the piano to be better than everybody else at it, or do you play the piano because you enjoy playing it, love the repertoire, and want simply to make music?

If the former, then I humbly advise you to reconsider your priorities and why you play music in the first place...

I hope this post does not sound harsh; it is certainly not meant as such, but is simply my honest and unadulterated opinion on the matter.

[rc]

Don't apologize for honesty.

sorry.

[le_poete_mourant]

You should never enter a competition expecting to win.  Hope to win, yes, that's fine.  But we should enter competitions only as a learning experience.  It will only help you in the future.  Expect to win, and you only set yourself up for disappointment.  Everyone will get shafted, everyone will feel like they got screwed at one point or another.  But you have to let it make you better, learn from it. 

Two words: Ivo Pogorelich

[maxy]

You should never enter a competition expecting to win.  Hope to win, yes, that's fine.  But we should enter competitions only as a learning experience.  It will only help you in the future.  Expect to win, and you only set yourself up for disappointment.  Everyone will get shafted, everyone will feel like they got screwed at one point or another.  But you have to let it make you better, learn from it. 

Two words: Ivo Pogorelich

Pogorelich?  He murdered the competitors  in Montreal and easily won that international competition...  He owned the Chopin comp but provoked the judges and got an early exit, which gave him huge publicity (with the help of Argerich).  He walked away from a rehearsal with Karajan... once again huge publicity.  He converted his losses in gains.  Great marketing strategies!

but hey! I love the name:  le_poete_mourant posting in "depression due to competition", that is pure genius! 

[nervous_wreck]

no one is better than you, just different. i say just run your race, let them run theirs.
being too good has its setbacks too... can you imagine how boring playing piano would be, if at 6 years old, you had already done everything stretching to the hardest pieces available? and i know that i'll never be 6 again... and i'll never play the hardest pieces or play easy pieces as musical (twice as challenging) as the 13  year old i competed with last week, but people enjoyed him, and me. your audience isn't sitting there going "hmmmm... you know i don't think he gave as much as the guy before" well... maybe they are, but who cares? do you like to play? that's all that matters.

[mike_lang]

Look, I walked into my studio in Chicago my junior year of high school and got upstaged by an eight-year-old (he played Ravel toccata).  Let me assert that all of these students play very well - the pieces they play are not above their level.  The same night, we heard a 15-year-old with the Rach 3rd, a 12-year-old with La Campanella, and a 13-year-old with the Waldstein and Mephisto.  For a 16-year-old playing Fantasie-Impromptu, mediocre at best, that's pretty intimidating.

But on the other hand it's inspiring.  You see what's possible with focus and work.  And of course, it's humbling.  The worst thing to get in the way of success is an ego.  So you must drop any pretense of being the "best" anywhere and just play your best.

Best,
ML

[kelly_kelly]

Also, a 13-year-old playing a piece well will still be enjoyable, regardless of an 8-year-old playing the same piece equally well. Everyone has a unique element to their playing.

[kelly_kelly]

I simply find comfort in the fact that probably 3% of them will ever play Medtner, Alkan, Reger, Godowsky, or almost any composers that are off the road map, whereas that is exactly what I intend to do in later life, to some extent or other.

Their desire to prove that they have skill and are worthy of the public's attention basically negates the possibility of them taking honest steps down that path until a lot later than I will have. That's what I perceive and I may be wrong.

I know I just replied, but I had to respond to this.

What do mean they have "a desire to prove that they have skill"? What if they just enjoy playing and performing?

A week ago, I heard a 10-year-old play the first movement of the Mendelssohn violin concerto. He played beautifully, and enjoyed every moment. And he's one of the sweetest kids I've ever met- I doubt he realizes how exceptional his technique (and even more his musicality) are. I therefore doubt that he's trying to prove himself: he just wants to make music, as we all do.

And what do you mean by "honest steps down that path"?

[rimv2]

Please tell me that I'm not the only one who gets depressed when I hear pianists that are my age or younger who are so much better than I am. I know that it's a situation that I need to get used to because there's always going to be someone better and someone who's not so good. But it would be nice if I could look at it a different way that would make me feel not so depressed.
I admit that I've always been very competitive and I came from a small town where I was pretty much the "best" pianist in town. Then, I left and was exposed to these teenage pianists who'd already won international competitions.
How do you guys deal with this kind of situation? What's your attitude towards this kind of inbound competition/comparison?

So what you're saying is you're lazy and got by on nothing but talent alone.

Quit whining and step up your game

If they can do it, you can too.


IF you dont believe this, you have no right to call yourself the best pianist in your town.

Cuz im sure some less talented but harder working individual would be more than happy to take that title.

Prodigies are born (however few) but virtuoso are made, biyotch!!!!

[jamie0168]

Prodigies are born (however few) but virtuoso are made, biyotch!!!!

There's no need for misspelt profanity, friend  Chill out

In my opinion (and this will perhaps sound brash to some), if you are faced with such a situation wherein you feel upset due to a younger person playing pieces that you are only just now struggling with (or any such unfavourable comparison), I feel you should question the reason why you play the piano. Do you play the piano to be better than everybody else at it, or do you play the piano because you enjoy playing it, love the repertoire, and want simply to make music?

I play music because I DO love it. However, I majored in it because I want a career in it. And let's face it....you want a good career in music these days (esp. for the position that I want) you have to have one heck of a resume, repertoire list, and experience!

Thank you, everyone for your advice. After being at that festival for 3 weeks, I think I might have solved alot of these problems on my own. 

[counterpoint]

Don't think: I'm not good enough!

but think: I could be better!

and work for this target.

The first will discourage you more and more,

the second will help you  getting a better and better pianist.