Xenakis Piano Concerto "Synaphai"

[mephisto]

OMG THAT CONCERTO IS MAKING MY EARS BLEED

No it isn't

[danny elfboy]

I really disagree with a lot of this and will respond mroe tomorrow
Walter Ramsey

You can disagree as much as you want but it will not mean much unless you've been an active member in accademies on those years. I've been speaking recently with a composition teacher and now composer who was a student in that era and comfirmed every word of what other thousands of students and teachers have been experienced.
It can't be even called a conspirancy because a conspirancy is something subtle while what happened wasn't subtle at all it was direct: "you do that and you can perform, study and record" "you do this and you get the *** out" ... not a conspirancy at all.
Interesting enough this has been confirmed by even people who was part of this orthodoxy and I still see first hand hints of it (and yes, that direct) in my experience as a student in an accademy that not only followed that ideology but had made a lot of economical connections with several recording labels based on the advent of this ideology.

I want to point out that all of this is not a critique or an attack to the music itself.
Everyone can create a militant and yes limiting and fascist ideology out of anything.

I will never criticize the freedom to express yourself in whatever way you want and therefore I will never even criticize the artistic appreciation of the sound of an electric drill. It's because I can't criticize freedom and defend it that I wrote that post.

Now if you say that it never happened it is you (many of which never set a foot in a musical accademy or conservatory) against thousands of teachers, students, composers, performers, musicians and criticis. But I do know what they say is real because many of them (thanks to various groups that promoted the freedom from the avant-garde ideology [and again check the masterprize and why it was so important]) can now perform and record their creations and there's no reasons why it was impossible for them before if not, as they say, that they were not allowed too and that anything that was opposed to the avant-garde artistic ideology was just ignored.
Another reason why I know that it is real is because I'm still living it, things are changing and it's easier now but I can still sense old vibes of that mentality and orthodoxy.

I'm sorry but I know accademies environment well, I know many people who have always said the exact same things meaning they wasn't making them up, many of them are also friends of mine and even talented and renowed people (now)
At masterprize hundreds of students and composers from the whole world confirmed it publically before having the first chance in their life to perform their works some of them written many years before.

Not only. I know people in this forum who can confirm this having lived that in first hand on accademies and concert halls.

To believe that I'm talking about an "avant-garde conspirancy" and that something like that never happened is like believing in an opposite and even bigger "conspirancy" ... that of the thousands of composers, students, critics, musicians who have over the years confirmed all of this.

I'm not attacking any style of music or the freedom to composer whatever you want.
But this was a reply to the statement "they must like it because it is what have been composed for the last 70 years" ignoring that there's ton of music which is not even close to this style but it never got a chance to be performed or known (otherwise such statement would have never been made)

Doubting this sounds to me like doubting the black slaves testimonies of sufference, oppression and abuse just because it would sound like an attack to the white people and the white culture (hence  ... I'm white, my family is white ... we're nice .. so they must have made this up)

I can provide you the phone number of a composer and teacher I know in a very famous school. You can ask about all of this and her experience yourself.
I'm not making an "ad hominem" argument here but I know that we sense the honesty of people. When you'll listen to her story ... narrated with so little presumption, with so many details and with a sense of sufference you won't think twice again about believing any of that can be made up.

I don't know what Charles Rosen is talking about and whether he has just interested (ideological, economical .. whatever) to deny the truth; but no one is talking about a a subtle conspirancy ... but about direct facts.

I can bring this as far as this needs to go because I will never accept such an importnat and universal testimony to be considered something "made up" (and for what reason ... what would be the reason to make something up about this if there was total freedom ... it would be just a pain in the ass). Even if that means getting the writtern testimony of hundres of people involved in those facts and attacching each of the to this thread.

[Derek]

Yeah see Derek, this is where you're wrong.  You're the one "on a mission", the mission to rebel against us elitists, right?  lol


Anyway, as I had to say about 600 times already in this thread, what you don't understand and have failed to have notice, time after time after time, maybe due to illiteracy, maybe due to idiocy, is that I never said ANYWHERE that someone has to LIKE Xenakis.  What you didn't notice is that the assholes are the ones like you, not me   You are bashing one of the most important composers of the 20th century, while I am not saying "*** you you have to like his music or you're stupid", but saying you should be able to appreciate the things he did with music.


There's the 601st time I've said it.  Let's see if you can understand it this time   Here let me try again with putting as few words inbetween the important ones as possible.  Judging by your ability of comprehension, this will be more effective.

You are "XENAKIS BAD".
I am "XENAKIS IS IMPORTANT".
You are "WHY DO YOU SAY I MUST LOVE XENAKIS MUSIC?"
I am "NO WHY CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND."
You are "BLARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGSNRGJNJEWNG."



602

You didn't understand me, either. My point is that nobody would even know who he is if there weren't tons of arrogant elitists (like you) around causing controversy by saying Xenakis' music is worth more consideration than a fart.  What I fail to understand is where the idea of him being "important" came from originally. To whom is his music important?  Is he important to some abstract idea of "musical progress?" Is he important to millions of people?   Describe this "importance" so that I might better understand.   I just don't understand how musical flatulence can be considered important.

In fact, I don't really understand how any music can be considered important, unless it somehow influences the progress of music.  Schoenberg had already composed orchestral farts,  Xenakis just ate the baked beans, as it were, rather than just a couple of hot dogs.

[mephisto]

Derek please tell me wich of these statements you would agree with:
1: Xenakis' music is crap, and that is fact.
2: Xenakis' music is great, and that is a fact.
3: I do not lik Xenakis' music, but I am not saying it is bad or anything, simply stating that I do personally not like it.
4: I love Xenakis' music, but I can easely understand that a lot of people don't like it, simply because of its complexities and general "weirdness".

 

[Derek]

5. I do not understand why Xenakis' music is considered important, since any non self-deceiving, down to earth person would feel nauseous listening to his music (or at the very least, this particular concerto, as I have not heard all that much of his music).

[mephisto]

So basicly no2?

Have you heard Evyali?

Btw I think you are closeminded.

[jre58591]

5. I do not understand why Xenakis' music is considered important, since any non self-deceiving, down to earth person would feel nauseous listening to his music (or at the very least, this particular concerto, as I have not heard all that much of his music).

correction, meph: very closeminded. xenakis wouldnt get all of the praise that he gets if he was just a "crappy" or "random" (etc) composer. there is far more genius in it than meets the ear. he is pretty much the pinnacle of stochastic music. do some research (google is your friend).

[danny elfboy]

he is pretty much the pinnacle of stochastic music. do some research (google is your friend).

But he could say that according to him stochastic music has not value, purpose or importance. After all there's really no universal acknowledgement about the role of certain movements, styles, periods ... so one is even entitled to say that a whole current in art/politics/sociology/science is just devoid of importance and value.
We must agree to disagree at the end and just accept that we are and must free to express ourselves in whatever way we want.

[ramseytheii]

there is far more genius in it than meets the ear.

I love it!  It reminds me of : "Wagner is much better than he sounds."

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

I like Xenakis, some other people share this oppinion, others do not. It is as simple as that.

You obviously don't like it enough.

Walter Ramsey

[Derek]

correction, meph: very closeminded. xenakis wouldnt get all of the praise that he gets if he was just a "crappy" or "random" (etc) composer. there is far more genius in it than meets the ear. he is pretty much the pinnacle of stochastic music. do some research (google is your friend).

I don't need Google to realize that Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Liszt, Grieg, and many many others were great composers.

Like I've said many times, pointing out that Xenakis used a lot of mathematical theory of some sort in his composition is comparable to a hypothetical scenario where an artist arranges a bunch of turds in a geometric pattern. If you are interested in math you might find the geometric pattern interesting,  but for the rest of us it is just a bunch of turds.

BTW  WHO is praising Xenakis? All the people who like his music, no doubt. Will Xenakis ever become a household word like Beethoven has? Of course not. His music sucks.


I'd like to add that I feel mildly duplicitous entering into these discussions on the side of "closed minded conservatives"  because I often improvise exceedingly atonal music.  Maybe what pisses me off really is the elitism---not the music itself.

[Etude]

The biggest problem I have in my very occasional listening to Xenakis, is concern over the extent to which Xenakis was actually in control of the way his music 'sounded'. 

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenakis, Xenakis' wish was that the listener disregarded the complex techniques used to create his music.  This is of especial relief to particularly mathematically inexperienced people such as myself.  However, in an interview viewable on youtube, Xenakis also explains that he often wasn't exactly sure what his music sounded like when he wrote it.  Outside of Xenakis' work, my view is that the end-result is the highest priority when creating music, and any compositional techniques, mathematical or otherwise, exist simply as tools to aid the creator in achieving this result.

From what I gather from the interview, the importance of the methods in Xenakis' music seems to outweigh the importance of the result.  Consequently, while I may or may not enjoy the sound of a range of Xenakis' music, these feelings are also accompanied by a sense that what I am hearing is irrelevant to the composer's accomplishments. 

Will Xenakis ever become a household word like Beethoven has? Of course not. His music sucks.

I needn't state that "his music sucks" does not constitute an evaluation of Xenakis' compositional output.  By this logic, one could also state that a higher ranking in the charts of a song or album indicates greater musical worth and quality.  Something that so many people need to get through their heads is that popularity is not indicative of quality.

[Derek]

I refer to my previous point. There may be an abundance of quality, but it may not be musical quality. Xenakis may have inserted all kinds of mathematical "quality" in his music, but the quality of the MUSIC, is terrible.  I recognize that this is to a degree subjective, but COME ON. That piece at the top of this thread, at least (as I haven't listened to very much of his output) is one long screech. One long fart. It is not music.   I'm making an appeal to down to earth, common sense here.  You people can blather all the intellectual hot air you want, it doesn't change the fact that this piece is musical vomit.

[mephisto]

You obviously don't like it enough.

Walter Ramsey

I don't understand?

[mephisto]

Xenakis may have inserted all kinds of mathematical "quality" in his music, but the quality of the MUSIC, is terrible.  I recognize that this is to a degree

No it is not. I do personally not understand ANY of the math used in Xenakis' music, I do simply like many of his pieces because they give me a kick, they are unique and often have addictive rythms.

[danny elfboy]

Outside of Xenakis' work, my view is that the end-result is the highest priority when creating music, and any compositional techniques, mathematical or otherwise, exist simply as tools to aid the creator in achieving this result.

From what I gather from the interview, the importance of the methods in Xenakis' music seems to outweigh the importance of the result.

That's been the reison d'etre of the avant-garde and postmodern philohophy (not just music but all arts) that the mean to reach a goal is more important than the goal itself, in fact the goal is morginal what is really important is the technique and the mean used.
That why even on galleries and halls and such they were fall less interested than providing prochures about the "meaning" of the end results by made sure to explain as much as possible about "what they did to reach that end result" ... which in itsel is rather irrelevant.

Music is a language, as such as all languages it obeys to the rule that what is important is the end the result of what you express not the mean you use which is just marginal or totally irrelevant. The communicative goal is what matter, what technique you use to go there is of no importance. Otherwise in so many postmodern artistic philosphies the goal is of no importance or irrelevant, it just serves the purposes of allowing the artist to show off or explain the technique and means used to reach that goal.

[jre58591]

LET IT DIE

[phil13]

LET IT DIE

I doubt that saying that anymore will have any effect. I'm just going to quietly walk away...

Phil

[ramseytheii]

You can disagree as much as you want but it will not mean much unless you've been an active member in accademies on those years. I've been speaking recently with a composition teacher and now composer who was a student in that era and comfirmed every word of what other thousands of students and teachers have been experienced.
It can't be even called a conspirancy because a conspirancy is something subtle while what happened wasn't subtle at all it was direct: "you do that and you can perform, study and record" "you do this and you get the *** out" ... not a conspirancy at all.
Interesting enough this has been confirmed by even people who was part of this orthodoxy and I still see first hand hints of it (and yes, that direct) in my experience as a student in an accademy that not only followed that ideology but had made a lot of economical connections with several recording labels based on the advent of this ideology.

You certainly pre-empted my disagreement in true Bushian fashion (Bushist?).  First you tell me it won't mean anything if I am not in academia, which you don't know, then you tell me you get your information from talking to other people!  Very naughty.  Anyways, I hope to provide you with interesting fodder from Charles Rosen, who is very much a part of not only academia, but performance life as well.

I want to point out that all of this is not a critique or an attack to the music itself.
Everyone can create a militant and yes limiting and fascist ideology out of anything.

You may not be totally aware of it, but to me your posts are nothing but an attack on that music.  Beethoven's powerful style dominated composition for decades, but nobody ever deemed to call him "militant" and "fascist."  Your loaded terminology comes from a strong tradition: Charles Rosen writes, "Julian Lloyd Webber [the cellist]... gave a speech in Feb 1998 at the World Economic Forum in Davos, attacking what he called 'the new fuehrers of the classical music establishment.'  It received surprisingly generous media coverage, including... a long interview in The Independent with the headline "STOP THE DICTATORS OF MODERN MUSIC."

Webber also wrote, much like danny elfenboy: "I am not necessarily criticizing [the avant-garde] style, but it cannot be good for music to straitjacket its composers.  In the years after the war, Western classical music created a pernicious politburo which proved as effective as its counterpart in the East.  In America, composers like Aaron Copland and Samuel Barber found themselves dismissed as dated.  In Germany, Bertold Goldschmidt couldn't even get a hearing."

These are of course composers of mostly tonal, perhaps more traditional, music.  Charles Rosen responds, and I quote at length, because it is really the individual case that matters here:

"The vocabulary - fuehrers, politburo - is considerably more interesting than the absurd propositions: Goldschmidt had difficulty in getting a hearing in his native Germany after the war pricnipally because he emigrated to England in 1935... both Copland and Barber, however, were performed from 1945 to 1975 with much greater frequency in the US than any of the more 'radical' composers like Elliott Carter or Roger Sessions.  Lloyd Webber makes it seem as if it had been easy to hear the works of mdoernist composers during this period, as if the public could not have escpaed their dread dissonances.  Of course, just the opposite is true."

I will never criticize the freedom to express yourself in whatever way you want and therefore I will never even criticize the artistic appreciation of the sound of an electric drill.

And why not?  You are just a step away from doing it.  Actually, you needn't bother, your feelings are apparent enough reading your unfortunate words.

Now if you say that it never happened it is you (many of which never set a foot in a musical accademy or conservatory) against thousands of teachers, students, composers, performers, musicians and criticis. But I do know what they say is real because many of them (thanks to various groups that promoted the freedom from the avant-garde ideology [and again check the masterprize and why it was so important]) can now perform and record their creations and there's no reasons why it was impossible for them before if not, as they say, that they were not allowed too and that anything that was opposed to the avant-garde artistic ideology was just ignored.

Have you been reading the Charles Rosen essay?  MY goodness, you practically quote straight out of there.  Rosen quotes Peter Gelb, the new director of the Metropolitan Opera, and at that time who headed Sony Records:

"Attempts to commission or schedule accessible and emotionally stimulating new music were blocked by a cabal of atonal composers, academics, and classical-music critics, who seemed to share ony goal: to confine all new classical music to an elite intellectual exercise with limited audience appeal.  By their rules, any new classical composition that enjoys commercial success is no good."

Rosen replies:  "That imples that difficult avant-garde music was played more often in recent decades than more conseravtive modern works 'easy' to listen to and more successful commercially.  That, of course, is quite simply false."

And how many programs have we been forced to sit through with works of Xenakis?  Kurtag?  Boulez?  Carter?  Babbitt?  Wuorinen?  I am willing to wager you could count it on the fingers of one hand, if it wasn't even zero.  Where are these avant-garde fascists?  If they are dominating the prizes, the academies, why is their music simply not played?  Boulez, you may be shocked to learn, gets performed mostly by Boulez.  Carter gets his accolades from James Levine; I remember Kurtag was a favorite of Dohnanyi.  In other words, they had personal supporters, people who played their music because they loved it, not to enforce an ideology. 

Another reason why I know that it is real is because I'm still living it, things are changing and it's easier now but I can still sense old vibes of that mentality and orthodoxy.

Rosen writes: "I should have thought that the modernist style in music was no longer a threat, but if it is still frightening, then this attack is an encouyraging sign that modernism is alive and in good health.  The earliest figures, of course, are now long dead and have entered the pantheon: Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Berg, Webern, Bartok are an unquestioned part of our musical heritage.  The most radical revolutionary masters of the generations that followed - Messiaen , Boulez, Carter, Berio, Ligety, Stockhausen, Birtwistle, Maxwell Davies, Babbitt - are all aging and respectable members of society...  It is, I suspect, this respectability that terrifies [danny elfenboy]."

At masterprize hundreds of students and composers from the whole world confirmed it publically before having the first chance in their life to perform their works some of them written many years before.

For every traditionalist student you know that never had their works performed publicly, I am sure i know one "avant-garde" or modernist who has the same problem.  And for those modernists who do achieve performances, there are rarely a second.  But Rosen writes:  "The music of conservative composers, like Barber or Thomson, may not provoke outrage, but it has no more popular mass appeal than that of the most extravagant modernists."

Not only. I know people in this forum who can confirm this having lived that in first hand on accademies and concert halls.

As long as you rely on these nameless thousands of people with whom you have apparently spoken personally on this very topic, these assertions are easily refutable: because I know just as many people who refuse all contact with modern and avant-garde ideologies, and these people I know are composers, performers, and theorists alike.  In fact when I was young I desperately wanted to play the Webern Variations - my teacher wouldn't allow it.  I was the one oppressed, banned from playing the music I wanted.  (I did play it, and my teacher ended up loving it.)  I had a composition teacher in university who refused to allow atonal music, because he said that writing diatonic music had to be mastered first.  There you have it, I have successfully rebutted your argument.

To believe that I'm talking about an "avant-garde conspirancy" and that something like that never happened is like believing in an opposite and even bigger "conspirancy" ... that of the thousands of composers, students, critics, musicians who have over the years confirmed all of this.

Then you are not talking about an avant-garde conspiracy?  Or you have not personally interviewed thousands of people on this subject?

Doubting this sounds to me like doubting the black slaves testimonies of sufference, oppression and abuse just because it would sound like an attack to the white people and the white culture (hence  ... I'm white, my family is white ... we're nice .. so they must have made this up)

I see that by doubting you I have become an intolerable racist.  Well, one should certainly be careful when one doubts danny elfenboy.  Fortunately I am not intimidated by these insecure attacks on my morality, and I feel safe in accusing you of holding irrational resentment!

I can provide you the phone number of a composer and teacher I know in a very famous school. You can ask about all of this and her experience yourself.

Perhaps we can trade phone numbers of our foot soldiers.

I don't know what Charles Rosen is talking about and whether he has just interested (ideological, economical .. whatever) to deny the truth; but no one is talking about a a subtle conspirancy ... but about direct facts.

At least you confess you don't know what he is writing about.  I will kindly rewrite your sentence to give history a warmer view of your ideas: "I don't know what Charles Rosen about and whether he is just interested in finding the truth..."

Walter Ramsey

[danny elfboy]

Also I know there are people here who can testimony the kind of orthodox establishment I'm talking about and the violent ostility of this establishment toward your freedom to express yourself and the consequent problems with studying, composing, performing and so on. 

Please don't be shy and share you testimonial here so that Mr. Ramsey can claim what kind of bastard LIAR you are from making up such nonsense.

[ramseytheii]

I honestly cannot understand the vitrolic venom spewing out at me.  The history doesn't seem to warrant it.  First off, I only politely said I disagreed, and promised more information, since I didn't have all my materials with me.  Then, you accused me of being a white supremacist (you don't even know, am I white?), or at least suggested that if I dared disagree, I wouldn't have a choice in the matter.  Now you say I am "worse than you," which at least is a small confession that your argument might be irrational.

For the record, I never called anyone a liar.  I only said that for as many people who were oppressed on one side of this avant-garde fence, you can find just as many who experienced the same on the other side.  But I will reiterate this numerous times in my reply.

What you don't seem to understand is that if a certain orthodox establishment had made it harder for people with different philosophies and styles to be accepted, go on with their studies, perform their works or record it, the one aware of this problem are the victims of this system not those that not contrasting with it never had a problem with it and couldn't know how it reacted to those leading in different directions.

Elisabetta Brusa is more likely to know as someone who composed many works in very different styles than those wildly promoted those years who the reaction of the accademic establishment whose, then someone "unwarelessly" pleasing that establishment and never finding out what was like to "disagree" with it.

You bypass my concern that your argument doesn't have a base.  If this establishment is so powerful that it can be compared with facism, where are all of the avant-garde works on the concert programs?  Where are all these thousands of evil avant-garde soldiers, being brainwashed and graduated and flooding the world with their ideological music?  I don't doubt that you know composers who experienced difficulty.  And perhaps they were in a local situation of disapproval towards traditional techniques.  I just don't know.  However you take that to an enormous conclusion that there is a worldwide facism that only exists to crush those who don't compose avant-garde music.  And where are the results?  Are the results in the orchestral programs?  In the radio programming?  In student recitals?  In music that is published?  Hardly.  There has never been a dearth of traditional music, or tonal music, and there never will be.  I guarantee you that thousands more know of Philip Glass, then Charles Wuorinen.  And Messiaen, who wrote avant-garde music with strict tonal definitions, though not diatonic, is wildly more popular than his avant-garde students, who avoided all systematic connection between harmonies.  I never doubted anyone was oppressed, but I asserted, and I still assert, that for every non-avant-gardist who is oppressed, there is an avant-gardist who is also oppressed.  Your argument is: Well, I know people.  My argument is just as good: I also know people.  Big deal!  You still haven't shown the results of this oppression; how this so-called fascist power exerts its presence.  There are simply no performances of this music to back you up.

Your argument is even worse than me.

I don't think you are that bad.

I'm resorting that's true to personal and writtern statements from hundreds of composer, teachers, students (and it's very UNLIKELY they have any reason from different parts of the world without meeting each other to MAKE UP at the same time the same story knowing they would just attract no sympathy just even more militant contrasts) while you're resorting to just one book from just one person which has way more reasons and why to deny something (or maybe he isn't even aware of it) than all those students, teachers and composers had to make up all the same story.

Actually, while you resort to thousands of testimonials you have apparently collected, I am relying on testimonials plus a scholarly source.  I never accused anyone of making up anything or lying.  I just said there are people on the other side of the fence who experienced the same thing, and therefore where are the facists?

However, perhaps your thousands of personal friends have just as much stake in inventing an evil monster: maybe in the end nobody wanted to play their music.  I say that not to insult anyone, but to observe the possiblity of a harsh world truth.  Much music exists in all styles that frankly nobody wants to play.

Anyway I guess you're smart enough to understand why you're not providing any serious counterargument. I said that it's easy to disagree with somthing when you've not lived it, so I repeat it ... if you haven't lived the conervatory and accademic envioronment in composition you don't know much ... and in fact you do provide not to know much since your ONLY source is ONE book with a person which has many many reason to act like an arrogant idiot denying the evidence.

I thought you were smart enough to understand what I wrote, but I am beginning to wonder if your irrational resentment is making you see red, and not read words.  Didn't I provide you with examples from my own conservatory life?  I had a teacher who refused me to play the Webern Variations, and I had a teacher who refused me to write atonal music.  Therefore my sources include myself, my friends, those I have observed, plus one scholarly book.  And if Rosen has a good reason to act like an arrogant idiot, someone whose music was never performed has a good reason to act like a victim.

You're right so far that I'm relying on "nameless" thousand but as I said I can bring this as far as it gets to the point that you'll admit you don't know or have experienced enough to just call thousands of people liars. So yes I can get their testimony and attach it to this thread including name, nationality and everything.

By the way how old are you?  Anyways, I didn't say anybody was lying.  I said that for ever person who was oppressed on one side of the avant-garde fence, another was oppressed on the other side.  Therefore there is no worldwide facism, and the only attempt you have made to prove there is is by claiming testimonials of several thousand personal friends, whom I am sure you contact on a regular basis.  I wish I had even several thousand devoted enemies, let alone friends.  So your guess is as good as mine.

When I said you can call certain people it's not because I'm resorting to ad hominem arguments but because I want to prove you that once you've heard their story from their own words and you've heard the honesty and detail of what they have to say you will never have the gut to call them liars to claim they made it up.

Anyways, I didn't say anybody was lying.  I said that for ever person who was oppressed on one side of the avant-garde fence, another was oppressed on the other side.

Because it's very easy to claim things when you've not lived those and have never been there experiencing what these people are talking about.

I was refused the privilege to write atonal music in conservatory.

Also you'll admit to yourself (even if you won't admit it to others) that those people and their story have a more "real life" hint than the clear arrogancy of the ONLY source you love to claim for.

Charles Rosen has lived a very full life in music, as a performer, theorist, and educator.  He is both inside the academic system and without.  How is his life not "real?"  This is bizarre and frankly irrational.  There is no reason for you to make such vicious attacks, except that it is the only way to convince yourself what you are saying is true.  I urge you to open your mind, forget this hostility, and forgive those who have wronged your thousands of friends.

That you consider what I'm saying an attack to the music itself just means that you don't know what you're talking about strawman.

So kindly tell us, do you like the music you are talking about, or not?

Also I'm the totally opposite of a Bushist.

I knew that would be effective!

This crap that somehow anyone defending the freedom to express yourself in whatever style must be a conservative right-wing while the elite accepting that avant-garde, postmodernism and nex complexity are natural evolution to be embraced and defended against the desire to use other styles as well is progressive left-wing is your own self-delusion.

Right-wing and left-wing are your own words, I never even hinted at them.  Also, the strawman is yours, because "thou sayest" that so called "elite" "progressives" embrace one style of music in order to do violence to another.  Beethoven's implosion of Haydn classicism didn't do any damage to the music of Haydn, but Beethoven was sure as hell a lot more famous.  You are deluding yourself to think there is even these two groups of people that exist.  The more I read your paragraph the more my jaw drops thinking, where did this even come from?

I'm EXTREME left-wing and hard-core liberal.
So I have nothing to do with conservative and right-wing or bushist ideologies or politics.

Actually the people of the world are subtly influenced by their leaders, and they mirror their leaders actions in distinct ways.  When Bush pre-emptively attacked a country that "could have" attacked, this became a model for people the world over, who pre-emptively attack in innocent conversation those who suggest in passing that there might be a disagreement, and who furthermore do it in a polite way.

You're masturbating your own mind in an incredible disturbing way projecting my own words in your own hypersensitive defensiveness. As I said, you're just acting like a snob up from his pedestal judging things he has never lived, experienced or heard about founding his judgment on one book. No, I won't let you tell you that so many people (AND AGAIN READ SOMETHING ABOUT THE MASTERPRICE AND THE REASON TO CREATE IT, THE PRESS, THE INTERVIEWS AND THE ARTICLES) are making things up ... which in not even in their interest too (while it's in the interest of your beloved author to deny things)

To address this paragraph from the bottom to the top: I didn't say anybody was lying.  I said that for ever person who was oppressed on one side of the avant-garde fence, another was oppressed on the other side.  If you have articles to link, link them.  I gave you the name of my scholarly source, after all.  You never said before that I am acting like a snob, but you seem to think repeating it will be effective.  I experienced an opposite thing to your hundreds of thousands of friends: I was forbidden to write atonal music.  I haven't projected anything, and you are the one being defensive, since I never attacked you, especially not in my first post, where I politely said I would disagree with a couple of things, and then you called me a white supremacist.  But I will let this rest and let the posts speak for themselves.  They speak volumes!

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

Also I know there are people here who can testimony the kind of orthodox establishment I'm talking about and the violent ostility of this establishment toward your freedom to express yourself and the consequent problems with studying, composing, performing and so on. 

Please don't be shy and share you testimonial here so that Mr. Ramsey can claim what kind of bastard LIAR you are from making up such nonsense.

When all else fails, implore the mob mentality.  For the record, and I think this is the tenth time I have typed this, I never said anybody was a liar.  Nor did I say that I am nice and therefore how could white people be slaveholders?  Nor do I have any information about anyone's birth status, bastard or legitimate.  However in this Easter season, I do promote forgiveness, even when a person publishes a vitriolic response to an innocent post, then erases it, but it is too late because the next person to respond has already quoted them.  Pity!

Walter Ramsey

[mephisto]

GREAT posts Ramsey!

[jre58591]

i gotta agree with meph. you really hit the nail on the head. danny elfboy, take some advice and knowledge from him instead of writing out long-winded speeches, which are just an attack on this music in disguise.

[danny elfboy]

You are deluding yourself to think there is even these two groups of people that exist.  The more I read your paragraph the more my jaw drops thinking, where did this even come from?

Indeed you don't know it.
I'm sure many peple's jaw dropped while thinking "where did this even come from?" when they heard absurd ideas like the earth is not flat and we're primates ...

I was forbidden to write atonal music.

Again you didn't explain the circumstance.
And I do believe you but even if the circumstance was a fanatical conservative teacher there are many many reason (that any historician making an analysis of the sociopolitical situation we're talking about would acknowledge) to claim that YOURS is more likely to be the exception.

I haven't projected anything, and you are the one being defensive, since I never attacked you

You do attacked me, but it's true that arrogance is hard to self-detect in ourselves.

and then you called me a white supremacist.

Can't you even understand a simple analogy?

[danny elfboy]

i gotta agree with meph. you really hit the nail on the head. danny elfboy, take some advice and knowledge from him instead of writing out long-winded speeches, which are just an attack on this music in disguise.

Why you idiot pretend to read people's minds?
Shut up if you don't know what you're talking about.
There's no music I don't like ... I don't care about styles, labels and genres.
And there's no artistic expression I would want to see disappear from this world.

[jre58591]

Why you idiot pretend to read people's minds?
Shut up if you don't know what you're talking about.
There's no music I don't like ... I don't care about styles, labels and genres.
And there's no artistic expression I would want to see disappear from this world.

screw you. i wasnt calling you anything, and then you outright call me an idiot? i dont know who the hell you think you are telling me to shut up either. this is the internet and no one has any (verbal) control over anyone else. and, i wasnt reading anyone's mind. im not that smart and great of a person. lets just end our little debate here.

[danny elfboy]

screw you. i wasnt calling you anything, and then you outright call me an idiot? i dont know who the hell you think you are telling me to shut up either. this is the internet and no one has any (verbal) control over anyone else. and, i wasnt reading anyone's mind. im not that smart and great of a person. lets just end our little debate here.

So ... you're another of those hypersensitive hypocrite that believe a meaningless word used an offence is more of an offence than a well planned and subtle insult?
I'm more offended by someone using statements to claim something not true about me than being called son of pregnant dog. Who cares for those harmless offenses.
Anyway you're not *** entitled to claim why I waste time writing 2 posts that exdeed the maximum amount of characters allowed. So don't even try this "I know why you wrote this ..." you know sh*t ... so please don't guess.
And yes you were reading my mind since suddenly you knew that my posts was an attack to a style a music, a style of music I apprecciated in many circumstances and have nothing against and want to thrive and increase in number ... which is the same fate I wish to every free and honest form of expression.

[jre58591]

So ... you're another of those hypersensitive hypocrite that believe a meaningless word used an offence is more of an offence than a well planned and subtle insult?
I'm more offended by someone using statements to claim something not true about me than being called son of pregnant dog. Who cares for those harmless offenses.

i really dont know what the hell you are talking about. im not a "hypersensitive hypocrite". sometimes i may go over the edge because people piss me off, but the bottom line that that people are entitled to their beliefs, if they are rational. if i misinterpreted what you said, so be it. and i said nothing to offend you. its you who is using offensive language.

Anyway you're not *** entitled to claim why I waste time writing 2 posts that exdeed the maximum amount of characters allowed. So don't even try this "I know why you wrote this ..." you know sh*t ... so please don't guess.

i dont know where you got any of that from. and i take offense to that. i didnt say anything offensive to you, so why say something offensive to me? i said nothing of the sort. youre the one who clearly doesnt know sh*t. now stop pulling nonsense out of your ass and shut the f*ck up. (is that what you wanted to hear? its only fair that i talk like this now.)

And yes you were reading my mind since suddenly you knew that my posts was an attack to a style a music, a style of music I apprecciated in many circumstances and have nothing against and want to thrive and increase in number ... which is the same fate I wish to every free and honest form of expression.

that is not the definition of "reading one's mind". "reading one's mind" is when i can outright tell you what you are thinking at this moment. my claim that your posts are an attack on music is merely my interpretation and not a read of your mind. get it straight. now lets end this right here and call a truce.

[danny elfboy]

now stop pulling nonsense out of your ass and shut the f*ck up. (is that what you wanted to hear? its only fair that i talk like this now.)

I don't really care. Only naive people can believe that real insult is about those harmless words. The real insult is not these words by implied in your post.
Insult doesn't depend on scurrile language which is just a sort of joke, it is suble and well thought and articuled.

[jre58591]

I don't really care. Only naive people can believe that real insult is about those harmless words. The real insult is not these words by implied in your post.
Insult doesn't depend on scurrile language which is just a sort of joke, it is suble and well thought and articuled.

i dont really care either. i was just imitating what you were previously doing to me. that is not my personality and i usually do not talk like that. run with it as you please. im done here. and what is "scurrile" language? it doesnt show up in firefox's dictionary. please dont make up words to make yourself look smarter. it only does the reverse.

[danny elfboy]

and what is "scurrile" language? it doesnt show up in firefox's dictionary. please dont make up words to make yourself look smarter. it only does the reverse.

you'll have more luck with a search in a latin dictionary for the terms: scurrilem

[jre58591]

you'll have more luck with a search in a latin dictionary for the terms: scurrilem

well, i dont speak latin and this isnt a latin, but an english, forum.

[danny elfboy]

well, i dont speak latin and this isnt a latin, but an english, forum.

I thought it was a word used also in english in its non-latin form ... my mistake.

[ramseytheii]

Danny elfenboy has gone from a thoughtful poster who gave lots of information especially on physical matters of technique to one of the ranters and ravers.  What happened?  And why the sudden transformation?  I almost want to think somebody like opus12 has just commandeered his account, stolen his password.  Where does this spite come from?

Walter Ramsey

[danny elfboy]

And talking about Wuorinen, that's what one of the most widespread (in accademies) book of him stated shamelessly:

While the tonal system, in an atrophied or vestigial form, is still used today in popular and commercial music, and even occasionally in the works of backward-looking serious composers, it is no longer employed by serious composers. It has been replaced or succeeded by the 12-tone system.

I'm not making any argument here about the music itself, for all you know I could hate tonal music or any style which is not postmodernist, but those words, the arrogance of those words ALONE sounds like something that could occur only in well established, narrow and militant orthodoxy.

This is nothing compared to what have been written on ther widespear accademy texts and or articles. Websites of avant-garde composers or theorists are even more shamelessly and violently militant and intolerant about any other style of music.

You know what is really ironic?
That you're arguing with me that there have never been any avant-garde orthodoxy or establishment and ironically the people that more likely would like to disprove you are avant-gardists themselves; they would just admit in refuting your arguments "Of course, the postmodernist style is evolutionarily superior and it needs to be defended from other inferior and obsolete styles and if that means curtailing the freedom of those composers and students that don't agree with our agenda so be it!"

Heard that billions of times, especially in accademies and very often from teachers, text books authors and theorists.

[soliloquy]

I honestly cannot understand the vitrolic venom spewing out at me.

WELCOME TO MY WORLD


Idiots are very good at pulling you down to their level.  Ergo, I am simply going to absolve myself entirely from this thread.  There is simply no way to argue with Derek, because no matter how logical or irrefutable your argument is, he's just going to continue to repeat himself, verbatim, as he has been doing, because he knows he's severely outmatched in all categories pertinent to this debate, and all he can do is refer to Xenakis' music as feces.  I personally suggest you, meph and lawrence follow me

[ramseytheii]

WELCOME TO MY WORLD


Idiots are very good at pulling you down to their level.  Ergo, I am simply going to absolve myself entirely from this thread.  There is simply no way to argue with Derek, because no matter how logical or irrefutable your argument is, he's just going to continue to repeat himself, verbatim, as he has been doing, because he knows he's severely outmatched in all categories pertinent to this debate, and all he can do is refer to Xenakis' music as feces.  I personally suggest you, meph and lawrence follow me

You're so right.  The shocking thing for me is that danny elfenboy made such thoughtful and usefl posts in the past, and even when people like opus12 said jerky things in response to his posts, I never saw him post hatefully in return.  One gets a certain feeling for personalities although it's the internet but I guess those really can't be trusted.  But never stop posting good information, somebody somewhere will read it and be happy!

Walter Ramsey

[Derek]

You guys have avoided a very good question I asked.  WHY do you consider Xenakis  "important?"  What does it mean for music to be "important?"

[danny elfboy]

You're so right.  The shocking thing for me is that danny elfenboy made such thoughtful and usefl posts in the past, and even when people like opus12 said jerky things in response to his posts, I never saw him post hatefully in return. 

opus12 insults are not real ... they're the jokes of a buffoon.
Your hypocritical and subtle insults instead are real and means much more than some nonsense cursing from opus12. What is really shocking is that you're not able to detect the arrogance and insulting condescendence in your own posts, this is both shocking and disturbing.

[danny elfboy]

WELCOME TO MY WORLD


Idiots are very good at pulling you down to their level.

Look who is talking.
I'm thinking at devoting a thread to collecting the best of the best of your posts, the hundreds of times you've been just a pompous arrogant self-conceited idiot with your presumptuous and self-deluded faith on your skills and talent at the expense of others.
You are not the the kind of person who can in all good conscience criticize someone.
You're the best example of the kind of human attitude where you need to spew sh*t at other to feel better about yourself when you clearly don't ... only that there's very little "human" about you.

[ramseytheii]

opus12 insults are not real ... they're the jokes of a buffoon.
Your hypocritical and subtle insults instead are real and means much more than some nonsense cursing from opus12. What is really shocking is that you're not able to detect the arrogance and insulting condescendence in your own posts, this is both shocking and disturbing.

Well then I apologize to you, danny elfenboy, because I never meant to insult you.  In fact I like reading your posts.

Walter Ramsey

[danny elfboy]

Well then I apologize to you, danny elfenboy, because I never meant to insult you.  In fact I like reading your posts.

I apologize too.
I believe you didn't mean to insult so it was a case of a message being delivered the wrong way and this is also the fault of the person it was delivered to. It's easy to misunderstand the tone of what is being said when you can't hear it from someone's voice and look at the body language and expressions and such. Peace.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Although this lies well outside my usual listening habits, I decided to give it a look out of curiosity. I don't understand why it has attracted so much adverse attention - I found it surprisingly accessible.

I'm not saying I would rush back to it in a hurry, but it was quite interesting; and I felt that it was more tonal than I'd imagined - maybe not tonal in a conventional sense, but not atonal - there were passages which sounded "quasi-tonal" at least to my ears. I'd say it was certainly music - as to how important it is, I don't have enough experience of this sort of repertory to be comfortable in passing judgement.

[maxreger]

I love this piece, Synaphai is my favorite xenakis.

I am sad to see so many people that "hate" music as much as Derek, but, I can understand. I gave up a long time ago trying to convince people like that of anything. If anything, I can see what they dont "get", and I let them move on to the music they do love, be it Liszt, Bach or Back Street Boys...

I dont understand why people like that have to come across as so "all-knowning", as to try to come into a thread, sh*t on Xenakis and his music and hard work (and that it was hard work, you can believe me it was.), and pass off their ideal in regards to music and the organization of sounds as "THE ONLY" way to view music.

I personally dont love Xenakis as much as I love Ligeti, and Penderecki (my two favorite composers bar NONE). But, I really like this concerto, the writting, th texturing, and the sheer power of the piece. Forget the math, forget the theory, I know its there, but its not important in my listening experience.

In regards to "importance", Xenakis will surely go down in the history of 20th century music, as a revolutionary, in his treatment of color, texturing, timbral control, and yes, his use of individual theoretical applications in his music.

If Derek wants to hear that this is "important", im not sure, I guess it is, it is to me, and I would assume it is to others who love music, and love to see where music has been where its going, and has gone. It wont feed starving kids in Africa, and it wont cure AIDS, but neither will Beethoven.

In the end, the passion I personally feel for this type of music, and all music in general (be it Liszt, Bach, or Xenakis) is far stronger than the hate a person like Derek can bring into a thread such as this.

[jre58591]

that's well said, maxreger. i agree with your points.

[mephisto]

Although this lies well outside my usual listening habits, I decided to give it a look out of curiosity. I don't understand why it has attracted so much adverse attention - I found it surprisingly accessible.

I'm not saying I would rush back to it in a hurry, but it was quite interesting; and I felt that it was more tonal than I'd imagined - maybe not tonal in a conventional sense, but not atonal - there were passages which sounded "quasi-tonal" at least to my ears. I'd say it was certainly music - as to how important it is, I don't have enough experience of this sort of repertory to be comfortable in passing judgement.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but this should definetly show Derek that you don't have to be and uber avant-garde person to at leats appreciate some of what Xenakis does with music. Based on your posts your favourite music is from the romantic era right? So why would you be under some kind of "spell" made by the high avant-garde to make people into elitis who pretend to like this music to feel better than the common man.

Glad to see such an open person as you Ronde

[ganymed]

PS: a picture says more than thousand words

[pita bread]

Seconded

[jre58591]

haha ganymed, my thoughts exactly.