Xenakis Piano Concerto "Synaphai"

[ahinton]

If, however, in your heart of hearts, the answer really is no, then I suggest you try to think carefully about the role music plays in your life. Is it purely a tool for being a pompous wind bag and attempting to appear vastly more intelligent than others, or can it be a force for good in your life, something you enjoy deeply?

I presume that you are seeking to address me (among others) in your comments here. If not, I apologise for misunderstanding you. If so, however, I can only say that if you have as much as the slightest suspicion that my rôle as a composer is to see music as "purely a tool for being a pompous wind bag and attempting to appear vastly more intelligent than others", then you must hate my music with a vengeance at least as deeply seated as that which I'd thought you reserved especially for Xenakis. Not that you've necessarily heard a note of mine, of course. In all seriousness, were music anything other than "a force for good in (my) life", I can imagine no circumstances in which I would ever wish to try to compose any.

What makes you and soliloquy and others like you suspect in my opinion is I have never seen you people EMOTE in any way shape or form about the music, except to express frustration and to condescend to those who dislike the music. When have I ever seen a listener of alyrical/atonal music declare: GOD I love this music, it is SO BEAUTIFUL!   Not once.  That makes me suspicious.

I cannot speak for "soliloquy" or anyone else, as it is not my place to do so. You can suspect whatever you like about me for whatever reason or none that you choose. When, however, you write "I have never seen you people EMOTE in any way shape or form about the music, except to express frustration and to condescend to those who dislike the music", I have not the slightest idea what it is that I have written here that prompts you to do so; in particular, I would draw your attention (again) to the fact that you either didn't read, or you disbelieved, what I wrote about my reactions to certain works of Chopin, Ravel and Roussel at the age of 11. Again, you have either omitted to read or chosen to ignore or violently disagree (without saying so) with my remarks about tonality and atonality being largely a matter of degree, but even in the absence of any or all of those things, why would "atonal" and "alyrical" necessarily be synonymous - other than in your mind, that is?

When did Western art-music composers throw away the idea that music is to be enjoyed simply, with melody and other basic elements? What happened to that?

Some time well before J S Bach, I imagine. There is more to fine music than mere surface enjoyment, although that element of enjoyment is of course one of a number of important factors too. Believe me, I am not one of Xenakis's greatest fans, but I do enjoy some of his works as well as admiring them. I also enjoy the Herbstsymphonie of Joseph Marx and the first Kammersymphonie by his slightly earlier compatriot Schönberg. and so on and so on. I love the C# minor Quartet and Pettersson's Tenth Symphony - the B minor Mass and Schmitt's Piano Quintet. I don't expect you necessarily to admire, love, enjoy or whatever those things which others do. Do not, however, seek to try to tell me or persuade others that I am not profoundly moved by certain music - you do not know me personally, nor do I imagine that you know any of my own work or what motivates it (nor need nor should you, of course), but I really would seriously counsel you, in your own best interests, to try to confine your statements - especially the more vociferously expressed of them - to matters where you have sufficient personal experience to voice them legitimately and articulately; please believe that I do not seek to patronise you when I assure you that, if you endeavour to do this, you will be taken more seriously by more people of more different persuasions.

Best,

Alistair

[Derek]

Since before J.S. Bach the idea of throwing out enjoyment in music came about? You're nuts. 

One more comment---since it IS blatantly obvious I don't know even remotely the amount that you do about music- why ARE you spending so much time and effort responding to me? Wouldn't you rather be listening to an orchestral whoopie cushion?

[Derek]

Welp, there you have it folks. This thread is a perfect example of people defending something that most people hate to get an ego trip. Isn't it hilarious? Have you ever seen such a towering avalanche of arrogant words in your life? And about MUSIC!  ......MUSIC!  It just kills me.

[Derek]

The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

[jre58591]

just let the topic die already. music is music. everything is music. let it die!

[debussy symbolism]

The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

That really is true. What sounds good to one may not sound as good to another. If Xenakis is your love than go for it, just as much as one might go for Bach.

P.S, don't take my earlier post seriously. It was a dash of bad humor. (Just to ameliorate the situation.)

[Derek]

I don't think it is over yet. ahinton will have the last word undoubtedly, because he's right about everything and knows more than everyone about everything and has a bigger vocabulary than the oxford english dictionary 

I suppose you may be right to a degree---heck, I listen to death metal. Maybe I'm a hypocrite, I don't know.  However I highly doubt that individuals such as ahinton would give death metal the time of day, either.

[ahinton]

I don't think it is over yet. ahinton will have the last word undoubtedly,

Not the last, I'm sure, but I will have a few, yes...

because he's right about everything and knows more than everyone about everything and has a bigger vocabulary than the oxford english dictionary 

In your opinion, perhaps; not in his...

However I highly doubt that individuals such as ahinton would give death metal the time of day, either.

Whilst you're pretty close to the mark about that, I would draw the line at posting on a forum that it "sucks", or possesses some kind of citric quality.

As you have been advised not only by me but by others, people's tastes inevitably vary as much as those who have them vary; such is the joy of human contrast.

Since before J.S. Bach the idea of throwing out enjoyment in music came about? You're nuts.

I had not said, or meant, "throwing out"; to clarify once more, "enjoyment" - in the sense of superficial pleasure - is just one of the things offered by great music - it is an intrinsic and vital quality but not an exclusive one. Of course, reactions to comments on this subject will depend upon the reader's interpretation of "enjoyment"; something as spiritually uplifting as a Palestrina Mass, the Cavatina from Beethoven's Op. 130 quartet or the final movement of Brian's "Gothic" Symphony, for example, suggests to me something more than mere "enjoyment"...

One more comment---since it IS blatantly obvious I don't know even remotely the amount that you do about music- why ARE you spending so much time and effort responding to me? Wouldn't you rather be listening to an orchestral whoopie cushion?

It was perhaps not necessarily so "blatantly obvious" to everyone before you wrote this - and if I had any idea what an "orchestral whoopie cusion" was, I might (or might not) bother to answer your question. I am spending very little time or effort in responding to you, but my responses, such as they are, are intended, among other things, to point out that there's little useful purpose to be served by throwing accusations hither and thither and then shouting that music that you do not like "sucks".

This thread is a perfect example of people defending something that most people hate to get an ego trip. Isn't it hilarious? Have you ever seen such a towering avalanche of arrogant words in your life? And about MUSIC! ......MUSIC! It just kills me.

Hilarious? Really? You don't sound as though you're laughing. And who is "defending" what, I ask? Just take a quick skim through the thread so far and see how many composers have been mentioned in it and who has done what accusing and defending. Of course we must all by now assume that, according to your wisdom, admitting to any positive comment about music that Derek thinks "sucks" is "arrogant". It doesn't quite seem to "kill" you, however, on the strength of the number of posts you're still making...

The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

Not much help to the atheist and not much more to the agnostic, I fear - but, that apart, I would be the last person on earth even to think of arguing with J S Bach!

Ah, well...

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

To all who hate Xenakis, you should listen to one of his songs(by that I mean vocal songs, are there any other?). You can here a sample at amazon and the name of it is "a Helene".

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000I9AB/qid=1150364115/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/104-3530126-7437569?s=classical&v=glance&n=5174

[ahinton]

The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

Just a brief P.S. on this. "The aim and final end..." seems to me to be less than synonymous with "the only acceptable and admissible aim...".

One of the greatest strengths of musical expression is that it can encompass such a wide variety - indeed an infinite variety - of emotions; it can entertain, it can uplift, it can excite, it can depress, it can do almost anything - and without visual or verbal aid. This is surely something that we all celebrate. You cite the immortal Bach. May I join you by quoting Mahler (to Sibelius) that "the symphony should contain the world"? One of the joys of music as a whole is its ability to "contain the world" - and indeed other worlds besides this one - but Mahler wisely refrained from suggesting that either the symphony in particular - or music in general - should contain only conveniently selected aspects of the world...

Best,

Alistair

[thracozaag]

I don't think it is over yet. ahinton will have the last word undoubtedly, because he's right about everything and knows more than everyone about everything and has a bigger vocabulary than the oxford english dictionary 

I suppose you may be right to a degree---heck, I listen to death metal. Maybe I'm a hypocrite, I don't know.  However I highly doubt that individuals such as ahinton would give death metal the time of day, either.

  I'd rather listen to Slayer than Xenakis...but that's just me, heh.

koji

[ahinton]

  I'd rather listen to Slayer than Xenakis...but that's just me, heh.

koji

Yes - OK, so I wouldn't, personally, but it is welcome to see an opinion voiced as such - no more, no less - and without the attendant requirement for lemons to be sucked...

Best,

Alistair

[steve_m]

g

[mephisto]

  I'd rather listen to Slayer than Xenakis...but that's just me, heh.

koji

Is Slayer Death Metal?

[jre58591]

Is Slayer Death Metal?

kinda. i personally like some xenakis works, to some extent. however, i dont see a need for a big heated argument like the one that just occured, especially over something so petty and stupid as differing opinions.

[ahinton]

i dont see a need for a big heated argument like the one that just occured, especially over something so petty and stupid as differing opinions.

Me neither - which is why, rather than venture any opinions of my own, I endeavoured to defuse it a bit by hoping to take some of the heat out of some of it. I failed.

Best,

Alistair

[Derek]

-

[soliloquy]

Slayer is speed/thrash.  Slayer is the Comme le Vent of metal, except sux more.

[Derek]

Slayer are WAY better composers than xenakis. Death metal would be a band like Opeth, which is actually so many other styles one can hardly call it anything but "really good music."

[yuc4h]

Yelling + Noise = Heavy metal ;<

[ahinton]

Slayer are WAY better composers than xenakis.

This bald statement seems about as valuable - and relevant to anything worth discussing - as would be a suggestion that Turner was greater as a painter than Debussy was as a composer (and no, I'm not saying that he was, of course...)

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Yelling + Noise = Heavy metal ;<

Now there's a helpful equation! - and there I was, in my ignorance, thinking that "heavy metal" merely was the kind of thing whose potential future use in Iran has of late become such a source of angst for certain members of the US government...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

To return to more serious and pertinent matters, this might be of interest:

https://www.iannis-xenakis.org/matossian.htm

Best,

Alistair

[bflatminor24]

The main reason I made that post at all is because I am disgusted by the way soliloquy is responding to various individuals on this thread. I was hoping by contrasting him directly with someone with a similar aesthetic, he might realize there are better methods for getting people to listen to strange music than beating them over the head with a verbal sledge hammer.

I recognize no categorizations, in ANYTHING really can possibly encompass every individual or exception; however for the purpose of criticising soliloquy's decidedly questionable method of defending Xenakis, categorization provided an excellent means for contrast.

Well put....a didactic, yet humble approach is best, and anyone in the professional academic community will corroborate this. This whole better-than-thou method you have of talking down to people alienates you and pushes people away from your ideas, which by themselves, may have merit. Your intellectual superiority complex is just some way you have of stroking your giant ego dick, but everyone knows it's a façade and you're just a bit insecure about being a gay smoker who didn't get accepted at that piano competition...

[bflatminor24]

Oops, I suspect my last post may have gone too far.... I didn't mean to sound vindictive, but it's cathartic for me to say things how they really are...

<3

~Max~

[monsieurrenard]

Firstly, Xenakis looks crazy because he got hit in the face by shrapnel during the French Revolution; just out of curiosity, how many wars have you fought in?

I was reading through your post and had to point out that neither Xenakis or artillery shells/grenades existed during the French Revolution, which took place in the 18th century.

After reading most of the thread I have to say both sides with a few exceptions have done an excellent job of making themselves look either foolish or pompous.

I like Xenakis, I don't think it sounds random at all actually.
If you don't like it, don't listen.

-Monsieur Le Renard

[ahinton]

I was reading through your post and had to point out that neither Xenakis or artillery shells/grenades existed during the French Revolution, which took place in the 18th century.Monsieur Le Renard

I pointed out the error in the use of the term "French Revolution" in this thread some time ago, so perhaps your reading of it has been either selective or fragmented. Anyway, you are right, Mr Fox.

Mr Fox?

Oooh!

Best,

Alistair

[soliloquy]

Well put....a didactic, yet humble approach is best, and anyone in the professional academic community will corroborate this. This whole better-than-thou method you have of talking down to people alienates you and pushes people away from your ideas, which by themselves, may have merit. Your intellectual superiority complex is just some way you have of stroking your giant ego dick, but everyone knows it's a façade and you're just a bit insecure about being a gay smoker who didn't get accepted at that piano competition...

Yes, it's quite true, I have a giant dick.  I'm not sure if you can call someone "pompous" after going out of your way to put a little squiggle mark under the C in facade without being extremely hypocritical.  Seeing as how you like to follow me around in pretty much every thread I post in and respond to all of my posts and try to out-intellectual-ego-cockstroke me (such eloquence!), I feel not only is all of the rest of this (sans gay smoker) is also quite hypocritical, but pretty pointless, not to mention harassment (most certainly attacks on sexuality) could very easily get you banned.  If trying to prove I'm smarter than someone makes me insecure, what does that make you?  Like, what's a stronger word for insecure?  Pathetic?  Sympathetic?  Did you not get enough hugs from your mommy or something?  Anyways, I don't smoke any more, I get laid a lot more than you, you're barely competant at the piano, and I hear you're morbidly obese, so if we're going to take pot shots, fatty, let's not throw stones from big, fat, sweaty glass houses (btw, I asked Brian Ferneyhough who you were and he said he didn't know- zing).  I think you're used to knowing the most about music and it really pisses you off when you're bested, so you have to keep trying to top me in random music trivia because somehow that means you're better than me.  If this wasn't the case then you wouldn't keep bothering me.  Seeing as how all you do is piss me off and waste my time with your BS, once again I will not be responding to your posts, because I know you just couldn't live without getting the last word.

If it helps you, I have absolutely no respect for you, never will/never have, no matter what you do, I will never like you or help you or give you scores or music or be your friend, and I will always know more than you, so I think you should just give up and leave me alone; really, you're just wasting my time and yours, seeing as how the only thing you accomplish is making us both look like asses, which much to your disadvantage I don't mind.  I think it would make things easier on you.  Why don't you, as you put it previously, "grow a sac" and stop whining like a little schoolboibitch and showing off, because after all my dick will always be bigger, just waiting to cockslap you down back into mediocrity 


PS- How do you like the pianist?  Pretty good, huh?

[ahinton]

Yes, it's quite true, I have a giant dick.  I'm not sure if you can call someone "pompous" after going out of your way to put a little squiggle mark under the C in facade without being extremely hypocritical.  Seeing as how you like to follow me around in pretty much every thread I post in and respond to all of my posts and try to out-intellectual-ego-cockstroke me (such eloquence!), I feel not only is all of the rest of this (sans gay smoker) is also quite hypocritical, but pretty pointless, not to mention harassment (most certainly attacks on sexuality) could very easily get you banned.  If trying to prove I'm smarter than someone makes me insecure, what does that make you?  Like, what's a stronger word for insecure?  Pathetic?  Sympathetic?  Did you not get enough hugs from your mommy or something?  Anyways, I don't smoke any more, I get laid a lot more than you, you're barely competant at the piano, and I hear you're morbidly obese, so if we're going to take pot shots, fatty, let's not throw stones from big, fat, sweaty glass houses (btw, I asked Brian Ferneyhough who you were and he said he didn't know- zing).  I think you're used to knowing the most about music and it really pisses you off when you're bested, so you have to keep trying to top me in random music trivia because somehow that means you're better than me.  If this wasn't the case then you wouldn't keep bothering me.  Seeing as how all you do is piss me off and waste my time with your BS, once again I will not be responding to your posts, because I know you just couldn't live without getting the last word.

If it helps you, I have absolutely no respect for you, never will/never have, no matter what you do, I will never like you or help you or give you scores or music or be your friend, and I will always know more than you, so I think you should just give up and leave me alone; really, you're just wasting my time and yours, seeing as how the only thing you accomplish is making us both look like asses, which much to your disadvantage I don't mind.  I think it would make things easier on you.  Why don't you, as you put it previously, "grow a sac" and stop whining like a little schoolboibitch and showing off, because after all my dick will always be bigger, just waiting to cockslap you down back into mediocrity 


PS- How do you like the pianist?  Pretty good, huh?

I will refrain from commenting on any of the content of the above but, whilst one may reasonably suppose that it might be an especial prerogative of the initiator of a thread to have a particular determining rôle (now flame me for using the circumflex if you must) in its subsequent content, I fail to grasp what relevance any of the above has to the subject of Xenakis, or to Synaphai, or to piano concerti and, if it really had to be written at all, it seems to me to be so personal in its expressive intent that a PM would have been a more appropriate course of action rather than posting it in a thread about a work by Xenakis.

Just my opinion, of course - unless it happens also to be anyone else's as well...

Best,

Alistair

[donjuan]

Just my opinion, of course - unless it happens also to be anyone else's as well...

Best,

Alistair

yeeee-eup

[bflatminor24]

Yes, it's quite true, I have a giant dick.  I'm not sure if you can call someone "pompous" after going out of your way to put a little squiggle mark under the C in facade without being extremely hypocritical.  Seeing as how you like to follow me around in pretty much every thread I post in and respond to all of my posts and try to out-intellectual-ego-cockstroke me (such eloquence!), I feel not only is all of the rest of this (sans gay smoker) is also quite hypocritical, but pretty pointless, not to mention harassment (most certainly attacks on sexuality) could very easily get you banned.  If trying to prove I'm smarter than someone makes me insecure, what does that make you?  Like, what's a stronger word for insecure?  Pathetic?  Sympathetic?  Did you not get enough hugs from your mommy or something?  Anyways, I don't smoke any more, I get laid a lot more than you, you're barely competant at the piano, and I hear you're morbidly obese, so if we're going to take pot shots, fatty, let's not throw stones from big, fat, sweaty glass houses (btw, I asked Brian Ferneyhough who you were and he said he didn't know- zing).  I think you're used to knowing the most about music and it really pisses you off when you're bested, so you have to keep trying to top me in random music trivia because somehow that means you're better than me.  If this wasn't the case then you wouldn't keep bothering me.  Seeing as how all you do is piss me off and waste my time with your BS, once again I will not be responding to your posts, because I know you just couldn't live without getting the last word.

If it helps you, I have absolutely no respect for you, never will/never have, no matter what you do, I will never like you or help you or give you scores or music or be your friend, and I will always know more than you, so I think you should just give up and leave me alone; really, you're just wasting my time and yours, seeing as how the only thing you accomplish is making us both look like asses, which much to your disadvantage I don't mind.  I think it would make things easier on you.  Why don't you, as you put it previously, "grow a sac" and stop whining like a little schoolboibitch and showing off, because after all my dick will always be bigger, just waiting to cockslap you down back into mediocrity 


PS- How do you like the pianist?  Pretty good, huh?

Hey John. I didn't attack you for being gay. I don't care that you're gay. And from what I'm told, I'm a very "competant" (or did you mean competent) pianist. I don't have something to prove, nor do I have an agenda. But this really isn't about me. I don't try to indoctrinate people, I don't alienate them, I don't denigrate them, and I certainly do not endorse petty insults and slapstick humor (re: cockslapping). I just think you're insecure and you derive pleasure in putting down other members of this forum. I also think you're a giant phony and I'm not convinced by your sophistic antics.

If claiming to have a humongous repertoire after only fourteen years of experience including many of the most difficult works composed weren't enough, certainly listing the "Bach Italian Concerto" under "Chamber and Orchestral Repertoire" is. Quite a laugh...

<3

~Max~

[ahinton]

If claiming to have a humongous repertoire after only fourteen years of experience including many of the most difficult works composed weren't enough, certainly listing the "Bach Italian Concerto" under "Chamber and Orchestral Repertoire" is. Quite a laugh...

As is that conflated work of Ravel quaintly described as his Concerto in G major for left hand; unless "soliloquy" has actually written some kind of transcription in which he moulds together Ravel's two piano concerti (à la manière de Godowsky's "Badinage", etc., where he conflates two Chopin études) - and I think we can be reasonably certain that, had he actually done so, we'd all have been told about it - Ravel's Concerto in G major is for two hands and the (superior, in my opinion) one in D major is for left hand alone. Perhaps I'm missing the point, however, and "soliloquy" has in fact learnt to play Ravel's two-handed concerto with his left hand alone - yet, again, I suspect that, were this the case, he would not have shrunk from letting us all know...

Best,

Alistair

[lisztisforkids]

I actually like it. I found it hideously frightining. But the piano writing really sucked. I felt so confined and restrained with the piano, but the orechstra was magnificent...

[jre58591]

I actually like it. I found it hideously frightining. But the piano writing really sucked. I felt so confined and restrained with the piano, but the orechstra was magnificent...

i think erikthon and eonta are better piano/orchestra works than synaphai. the piano gets more of a chance to be free in these pieces. synaphai was a bit restrained, i agree, but i still like it.

[counterpoint]

I don't understand, why do people get so angry, when they hear some new music, which sounds strange to them? Schumann already stated, that the last mouvement of Chopins B-minor Sonata were no music? On the other side, Chopin didn't like Schumann's Kreisleriana (which was dedicated to Chopin!)  at all.

People are different and they like different things.
Nobody can be forced to like a special piece of music.
Perhaps, you can give some informations about a piece, which will wake the interest, but in general, the personal taste is something, which doesn't change very much.

I find Xenakis' music very interesting, but I wouldnt run through the streets, telling all people, they should hear this music. This music is not for the mainstream classic fan.

[invictious]

Sorry for bumping old thread, jsut felt that I needed to.

I am synaesthetic, and this piece gives me a DAMN HEADACHE AND A SEIZURE WHEN I CLOSE MY EYES>
ARGH
ARGH
DIE>

[ramseytheii]

I find Xenakis' music very interesting, but I wouldnt run through the streets, telling all people, they should hear this music. This music is not for the mainstream classic fan.

\

Then clearly you don't love it enough.  You must love it more!

Walter Ramsey

[jre58591]

oh come ON! let this die already!

[danny elfboy]

With that said, apparently composers and a lot of other people must like this stuff a lot since this has been the direction that they have been heading in for the last 70 years or so.

Not at all. It is known as the "avant-garde fascism".
Read about the masterprize and you will read about hundreds of composers of students who were forced to write on certain styles just to get commission or not to be kicked out of their schools. Many careers have been just destroyed and many people couldn't even find someone who taught them traditional orchestration.
So while I'm sure this "mean" (because this style of music is nothing but a mean and any pretension of intellectual superiority of obligatory evolution is plain nonsense) can be very usefull to express yourself and many enjoy using it, the "compulsury avant-garde" is not something wanted, is not something accepted and is not the natural evolution of anything; how it all began and why it's a very complex synergy of factors which has more to do with politics and philosophy (and money too) than art.

This "elitism" have just chased away almost everyone (especially young people) away from accademic music. That's why the masterprize is having so much success especially among young student, composers and listeners.

That being said if such elite fascism hadn't been a reality you would have heard much more varied music in the last 70 years and the goal right now for several groups of teachers, composers, students and criticis and for accademies too is that of destroying the limited and militant ideologies of accademy music and restore some real freedom in musical arts and composition. Music after all is an arte liberale not a closed pseudopolitical ideologies. Fortunately the elitism I'm talking about is getting kind of old right now and it's small in number compared to the growing number of people involved in accademies and accademic music that want this to change.

The very hypocritical aspect of all of this is that it all started through the ideology of freeing arts from past indoctrinated ideologies and it ended up establishing an artistic orthodoxy that in its own way was as doctrinaire as any that had come before.

[ramseytheii]

Not at all. It is known as the "avant-garde fascism".
Read about the masterprize and you will read about hundreds of composers of students who were forced to write on certain styles just to get commission or not to be kicked out of their schools. Many careers have been just destroyed and many people couldn't even find someone who taught them traditional orchestration.
So while I'm sure this "mean" (because this style of music is nothing but a mean and any pretension of intellectual superiority of obligatory evolution is plain nonsense) can be very usefull to express yourself and many enjoy using it, the "compulsury avant-garde" is not something wanted, is not something accepted and is not the natural evolution of anything; how it all began and why it's a very complex synergy of factors which has more to do with politics and philosophy (and money too) than art.

This "elitism" have just chased away almost everyone (especially young people) away from accademic music. That's why the masterprize is having so much success especially among young student, composers and listeners.

That being said if such elite fascism hadn't been a reality you would have heard much more varied music in the last 70 years and the goal right now for several groups of teachers, composers, students and criticis and for accademies too is that of destroying the limited and militant ideologies of accademy music and restore some real freedom in musical arts and composition. Music after all is an arte liberale not a closed pseudopolitical ideologies. Fortunately the elitism I'm talking about is getting kind of old right now and it's small in number compared to the growing number of people involved in accademies and accademic music that want this to change.

The very hypocritical aspect of all of this is that it all started through the ideology of freeing arts from past indoctrinated ideologies and it ended up establishing an artistic orthodoxy that in its own way was as doctrinaire as any that had come before.

I really disagree with a lot of this and will respond mroe tomorrow, but Charles Rosen addressed this in a terrific essay (the title escapes me but I will have the book tomorrow).  He made fun of the idea of conspiracies amongst the avant-garde to suppress other types of music; apparently someone proclaimed their was a conspiracy to prevent the performance of the music of Henze.  Charles Rosen wrote: "How can I join such a splendid conspiracy?"

Walter Ramsey

[Derek]

...

[Derek]

Not at all. It is known as the "avant-garde fascism".
Read about the masterprize and you will read about hundreds of composers of students who were forced to write on certain styles just to get commission or not to be kicked out of their schools. Many careers have been just destroyed and many people couldn't even find someone who taught them traditional orchestration.
So while I'm sure this "mean" (because this style of music is nothing but a mean and any pretension of intellectual superiority of obligatory evolution is plain nonsense) can be very usefull to express yourself and many enjoy using it, the "compulsury avant-garde" is not something wanted, is not something accepted and is not the natural evolution of anything; how it all began and why it's a very complex synergy of factors which has more to do with politics and philosophy (and money too) than art.

This "elitism" have just chased away almost everyone (especially young people) away from accademic music. That's why the masterprize is having so much success especially among young student, composers and listeners.

That being said if such elite fascism hadn't been a reality you would have heard much more varied music in the last 70 years and the goal right now for several groups of teachers, composers, students and criticis and for accademies too is that of destroying the limited and militant ideologies of accademy music and restore some real freedom in musical arts and composition. Music after all is an arte liberale not a closed pseudopolitical ideologies. Fortunately the elitism I'm talking about is getting kind of old right now and it's small in number compared to the growing number of people involved in accademies and accademic music that want this to change.

The very hypocritical aspect of all of this is that it all started through the ideology of freeing arts from past indoctrinated ideologies and it ended up establishing an artistic orthodoxy that in its own way was as doctrinaire as any that had come before.

Holy crap man, you rule. I agree with you 100%

[jre58591]

lets face it. people like what they like. respect it. and LET THIS THREAD DIE.

[Derek]

Why let it die? Everyone loves controversy, that is why the News is such a booming business all over the world.

What is really interesting is, WHAT really is controversial here? Is Xenakis' music itself controversial? Or is the controversy being created by a bunch of self-important intellectuals who revel in causing huge arguments such as this one while they act all self assured and calm? In the absence of such people, would anyone even know Xenakis' name? Personally I think not.

[mephisto]

I like Xenakis, some other people share this oppinion, others do not. It is as simple as that.

[soliloquy]

Yeah see Derek, this is where you're wrong.  You're the one "on a mission", the mission to rebel against us elitists, right?  lol


Anyway, as I had to say about 600 times already in this thread, what you don't understand and have failed to have notice, time after time after time, maybe due to illiteracy, maybe due to idiocy, is that I never said ANYWHERE that someone has to LIKE Xenakis.  What you didn't notice is that the assholes are the ones like you, not me   You are bashing one of the most important composers of the 20th century, while I am not saying "*** you you have to like his music or you're stupid", but saying you should be able to appreciate the things he did with music.


There's the 601st time I've said it.  Let's see if you can understand it this time   Here let me try again with putting as few words inbetween the important ones as possible.  Judging by your ability of comprehension, this will be more effective.

You are "XENAKIS BAD".
I am "XENAKIS IS IMPORTANT".
You are "WHY DO YOU SAY I MUST LOVE XENAKIS MUSIC?"
I am "NO WHY CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND."
You are "BLARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGSNRGJNJEWNG."



602

[jakev2.0]

haha da 'woofah listened to approx 5 mins of da Xenakis b4 recognizing that he cud maximize utility by listenin to BRAHMS instead. 

[phil13]

You are "XENAKIS BAD".
I am "XENAKIS IS IMPORTANT".
You are "WHY DO YOU SAY I MUST LOVE XENAKIS MUSIC?"
I am "NO WHY CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND."
You are "BLARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGSNRGJNJEWNG."

ROFLMAO

*ahem*

haha da 'woofah listened to approx 5 mins of da Xenakis b4 recognizing that he cud maximize utility by listenin to BRAHMS instead.

I feel pretty much the same way, though it DOES NOT mean I don't respect it. To be honest, I didn't dislike Synaphai as much as I disliked Herma- there were some eerie moments, especially with the string instruments. Personally, I feel that the sounds Xenakis gets in his music sound a little better in a full orchestra. I can respect his music, even if I do not like it.


That said, this may be one of the most hate-filled topics I have ever seen on Pianostreet, with crap spewing fom BOTH sides.

i can just imagine the grunts of distaste from other members though.

You'd be correct, judging by the way this thread developed.

Excuse me, but as funny as it is, Skepto's boiled-down version is essentially correct. It seems that a lot of people are dismissing Xenakis as 'random noise' and basically condemning the stuff EVEN AFTER it was already explained at the beginning of the thread that Xenakis's music used a lot of mathematic and scientific formulai to produce the notes. Posts like these:

Ehm... Can someone actually listen the whole piece without getting a headache?

Edit: And the piano sounds so random that I doubt that even the performer knows what notes he/she should hit and when, since apparently there is no time signature, tempo or anything else except random notes whatsoever. I wouldn't be very surprised if the performer plays it differently each time since noone can tell the difference. At least the piano couldn't sound crappier?

Xenakis looks like he was seriously insane btw ;<


Edit2: Hey, I got it, maybe you need to be synaesthetic to enjoy this. Then, after you have listened it you can atleast say that it looked really cool.

I'm not going to get too involved in this, but get real.  Anyone in the world could of written that piece.  Often I think that people pretend to like this stuff just to make themselves look sophisticated.  I can appreciate more Xenakis' music that is based on mathematical principals because you need to be somewhat intelligent to understand it, but still it is awful in comparison to tonality.  

To make the claim that everyone who can't appreciate blaring noise with no musical value is retarded is ...retarded. is

...are not necessary. They only encourage the wrath of the other side.

That said, I turn to you now, Skep. Calling everybody retarded if they don't appreciate Xenakis probably won't get them to appreciate Xenakis. Calling them idiots, illiterates, and incompetent assholes probably will not get you much further. Either ignore them or maybe try posting without adding insults to your rebuttal? Just a thought.

Perhaps it was said best by Derek:

Welp, there you have it folks. This thread is a perfect example of people defending something that most people hate to get an ego trip. Isn't it hilarious? Have you ever seen such a towering avalanche of arrogant words in your life? And about MUSIC!  ......MUSIC!  It just kills me.

So, now turning to what Jre has been saying:

just let the topic die already. music is music. everything is music. let it die!

oh come ON! let this die already!

lets face it. people like what they like. respect it. and LET THIS THREAD DIE.

Maybe you need to type louder, my friend.

LET THIS F*CKING THREAD DIE ALREADY.

Phil
 

 

[jakev2.0]

PS: Xenakis = cute.

[imbetter]

OMG THAT CONCERTO IS MAKING MY EARS BLEED