Moral Absolutism? Yes or No

[chopiabin]

Hey guys, do you believe there is an absolute truth? Or is there room for moral relativism? This is not necessarily asking if you believe in a certain religion, or a religion at all, it is just asking if you think there is an absolute right or moral Tao as C.S. Lewis puts it.

I certainly don't agree with the opinion that there is an absolute right for everybody. I don't believe we can judge other people's morals because we can not place ourselves within their situations and minds.

Chop

P.S. How many stars does it take to become a full member and then a senior member?

[schnabels_grandson]

I really hope I understood you question!

I do think there is an "absolute truth".  The fact is that nobody lives up completely to the highest moral standards.  You are right that nobody can judge others because as the saying goes: "nobody's perfect".  Therefore, it is asinine to criticize others for their moral shortcomings.   However, if everybody attained to the same ideal of moral standards, nobody would ever feel obligated to judge others.

[chopiabin]

Who is to say what the "absolute truth" is then? If I say it's one thing and you say it's something else, then how do we determine who is "correct"?

Chop

[schnabels_grandson]

There are bound to be very few possibilities for what this "absolute truth" could be.  Hypothetically, we could determine who is correct by giving your set of morals to an isolated group of people (a seperate society as it were) and my set to a different group, then seeing which group fared the best as far as crime rates and general person to person relationships.  That not make much sense as I am unable to put it differently.

[Esther_Yana]

I agree with you 6th_Gen_Beethoven, except I'm still doubting.  Cause by what you were saying you gave me also reason nót to believe in moral absolutism (oid).

Seems like the reasons for Do believe in it are the same as do NOT believe in it. If you get my point...

But my personal view is not believing in Moral Absolutism. There are as many as there are people.  

And yeah, we think it's normal not killing someone ( for example), but still there are people who do? I think this MA standard just depends on the conscience everyone has. Because only in this conscience I can find some corresponding things in mankind, so maybe this where we have to look for this MA . But it got to be far more complicated I believe.

Still, I'm a rebel, and only live at my own standards.

[robert_henry]

 You are right that nobody can judge others because as the saying goes: "nobody's perfect".  Therefore, it is asinine to criticize others for their moral shortcomings.  

So, because I have shortcomings as person, I am not worthy to judge a murderer or a pedophile?  That's absurd.  The highest standard for moral living is not represented by any one person, but the IDEAL exists nonetheless, and we all have right, obligation, and indeed the duty to "judge" others for the betterment of the human race.  We as a society tell the murderer or the thief, "No, those behaviors are unacceptable."  One of the main problems with the world today is that people don't have a conscience, and people are loath to take responsibility for their own actions.  

We should choose our battles, of course, and as with everything, there is a healthy way to judge and an unhealthy way.  The healthy way is to guide others with a humble and empathetic heart, and do so in a way that acknowledges our own shortcomings.  People will point to verse when Jesus said, "Judge not lest ye be judged" as an excuse for their or others behavior.  I do not believe that the intent of that verse is meant to give people a free pass.  The people who were the target of Jesus' statement were obviously feeling rather self-righteous.  That is the unhealthy way to judge.  Plus, there are verses in the Bible that say just the opposite about judging.  (I just mention the Bible because I know someone will bring it up anyway.)  Plus, did not God judge people all throughout the stories in the Bible?  Most Christians only read the testaments, verses, and books that already correspond with their own proclivities anyway, so I really am not interested in anecdotal verse tossing.  I just figured I would rebut the Bible argument before someone made it.

As for absolute morals:  Is it wrong to kill for sport, like the D.C. snipers?  Yes.  Is it wrong to kill to protect one's family?  No.  There are many examples like this.  However, the lines are not so clearly drawn from there on down the list as lesser crimes are considered.

My value system for HUMANITY AS A WHOLE falls pretty much into the libertarian realm: if my actions do not deprive someone else of their life, liberty, or property then all is well, and that applies to the other guy as well.  Now, the values I hold for MYSELF are much higher than that.  For instance, getting drunk seven days a week doesn't hurt anyone else, so it might be acceptable under the "humanity system", but under my "personal system" it would not be acceptable to me, so I simply would not do it.  Make sense?

Robert Henry

[schnabels_grandson]

You are absolutely right Robert.  I was refering to non criminal moral choices.  Of course there are clear drawn lines about what's right or wrong, but there is also a grey area.  In this grey area are issues such as sexuality and lifestyle.  For example, I may completely disagree with homosexuality, but because I am imperfect, it's not my place to tell anothere imperfect person that it's wrong or be judgemental towards them.  As you said, some things are beyond a doubt immoral and wrong, therefore in this case people can judge others.  
      As for the " humanity system", as described by Robert, it is an impossibility.  No matter how much people deny or ignore it, everything you do has direct or indirect effects on other people.  So, if you are doing something that is hurting yourself such as being a lush 24/7, you are possibly hurting your family and society as a whole.  I guess the real humanity rule would be:  If it hurts ANYBODY (including yourself), don't do it.