opus clavicembalisticum

[y000]

i've been playing piano for 13 yrs. so i decided to spend the next year (at least!) on learning at least the first movement of opus clavicembalisticum bu sorabji. where can i download it?

[jre58591]

i sense that a post by alistair hinton is coming.

you cant download it (legally). you have to go to the sorabji archive and order it from them.

just to add: i think youll need more than 13 years of playing to tackle this piece.

[lostinidlewonder]

I sense that this thread is meant to provoke people

[ramseytheii]

I sense that this thread is meant to provoke people

Don't be silly.  Anyways, why would anyone want to learn this piece?


Just Joking,
Walter Ramsey

[ryguillian]

i sense that a post by alistair hinton is coming.

you cant download it (legally). you have to go to the sorabji archive and order it from them.

just to add: i think youll need more than 13 years of playing to tackle this piece.

Why can't you download it legally? I don't even think it's copyrighted in the US... and who the hell cares about copyrights, anyways?

—Ryan

[jre58591]

Why can't you download it legally? I don't even think it's copyrighted in the US... and who the hell cares about copyrights, anyways?

—Ryan

well, i kinda do. if i were to post it, nils would probably remove it or alistair would ask me to remove it. i could care less about copyrights. its technically an illegal download because sorabji died less than 70 years ago. also, not everyone taht visits these forums is from the US.

[ryguillian]

well, i kinda do. if i were to post it, nils would probably remove it or alistair would ask me to remove it. i could care less about copyrights. its technically an illegal download because sorabji died less than 70 years ago. also, not everyone taht visits these forums is from the US.

You could always send him a private message with a link to it there... I don't think anybody could say anything about that.

[jre58591]

You could always send him a private message with a link to it there... I don't think anybody could say anything about that.

i just might if i feel generous enough.

[thalbergmad]

Please God, not this again.

[andhow04]

dont waste ur time. ANYONE WHO IS LEARNING THIS MUSIC IS JUST WASTIN THEIR TIMES.

its BAD music,

it CANT BE PLAYED,

it;s UGGLY SOUNDIN,





and NOBODY WANTS TA LISTEN TO IT. MK?

[jre58591]

wow that was totally unnecessary. you probably havent heard it once in your life. but i wont start another argument. its pointless to argue with people of lower intelligence. just leave before alistair hinton comes to pwn you.

[Ruro]

just leave before alistair hinton comes to pwn you.

HAHA, I hope he has something to say ^^

Please God, not this again.

I love these threads

I was actually just following the Coda Stretta Madge plays to the score, because for some reason the line from the letter came to mind, "Bites Like Nitric Acid", suprise suprise this phrase come up on google as well, so I found some good reading material too. I did my best to follow the wake of destruction that madge implies, and it does actually sound kinda cool - or maybe it's just the look of the score, looks friggin kick-ass!
Seriously though, the last movement, according to the score, should be fricking sweet. Mind you, I can't hear the notes in my mind, but I think I get a good enough picture.

*Tugs Hintons Shirt!* Any updates on the Sorabji recording?

EDIT: For fun trivia, it should be the 76th Anniversary of the OC's completion in 10 days (The 26th) - welcome any clarification on the accuracy of this. I got the finish date from somewhere, perhaps from a scan of the Letter.

[pies]

Who would copyright such garbage?
Please erase this composition of treachery from the face of earth.

I call for extermination of all records of Sorabji, his works, recordings, and all of those who "enjoy" his works.  Why didn't Hitler file Sorabji lovers under the same category as homosexuals and Jews? The world would have been a better place if he had done so.

JK   

[jre58591]

its BAD music,

it CANT BE PLAYED,

it;s UGGLY SOUNDIN

"i am the spirit that denies"

[andhow04]

wow that was totally unnecessary. you probably havent heard it once in your life. but i wont start another argument. its pointless to argue with people of lower intelligence. just leave before alistair hinton comes to pwn you.

Actually, i heard this monstrosity FROM TWO different CDS! some ppl say No bad piece, only bad performance, but in this case i gots ta say, BAD PERFORMANCE for a BAD PIECE ! ! !  ! ! !  !
ANd Mr Sor-who-boo doeasnt understand nothin about HOW MUCH PPL CAN HEAR because HE WROTE MORE THAN ITS POSSIBLE TO HEEEEEEAAAAARRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and its uggly soundin. i think he must 've had that diesase that glenn gould had, aspens yndrome or whatever twas called. Sor-who-boo was definitely PSYCHOTIC and needed MEDICATIOn and PYSCHOTHERAPIES!!!

[jre58591]

and its uggly soundin. i think he must 've had that diesase that glenn gould had, aspens yndrome or whatever twas called. Sor-who-boo was definitely PSYCHOTIC and needed MEDICATIOn and PYSCHOTHERAPIES!!!

from your last two posts it looks to me that youre the one that needs medication and psychotherapies.

[henrah]

from your last two posts it looks to me that youre the one that needs medication and psychotherapies.

ehehhe burn But you gotta love his 'Sor-who-boo' name ehehe

You know, I'm starting to think that maybe Sorabji wrote this piece for people like us to quarrel over. Or possibly he wanted to be the first composer to ever write a piece that no one would perform... Is he in the Guinness World Records?

[invictious]

Look, there is absolutely no point in playing the OC.

It just just random notes bunched together, why not write your OWN and beat Sorabji.

Don't waste your time and money, play more Rachmaninoff, Scriabin and Prokofiev.

[henrah]

There is a point to playing the OC invictious. If someone likes the OC, why shouldn't they play it?

Where did you get the knowledge that it's just random notes bunched together? Or is that an attempt to insult Sorabji?

Either way, we need Ali* to clear this all up

[prometheus]

Why doesn't everyone listen for themselves how 'random' Sorabji is: Click

I can already tell you it is less random than Chopin.

I also tried to write music like Sorabji. But I failed because his music is just on a much higher level. Everyone can write an half-assed Chopin-like piece. To do the same with Sorabji is much much harder.

[ahinton]

I'm starting to think that maybe Sorabji wrote this piece for people like us to quarrel over. Or possibly he wanted to be the first composer to ever write a piece that no one would perform... Is he in the Guinness World Records?

I ws going to leave this for others to squabble over if they so wish, but I suppose I'd better make a few brief observations, now that I've actually been invited to do so.

I hardly think that Sorabji would have sought to write a piece just so that people who weren't even born at the time he wrote it would "quarrel" over it on an internet forum, a medium that would have been entirely unfamiliar to him at the time (1929-30); neither is it conceivable that he would have wanted to be the first - or any other - composer "to ever write a piece that no one would perform", given that, at the time of its completion, he was already scheduled to perform it himself within less than six months.

OC used (erroneously) to be in the Guinness Book of Records but has not been for some years.

"Invictious" is as entitled to his opinion of OC as is anyone else, although it is clearly not shared by those who have played the work or most of those who have attended public performances of it and/or purchased one or more of its recordings; that said, the value of individual opinions to those that read them is inevitably dependent upon the extent of experience and understanding that informs - and helps to form - those opinions in the first place, whether on OC or anything else - and just how well "invictious" knows OC I have no idea. I am quite sure, however, that Sorabji would also have encouraged people to play more Rakhmaninov, Skryabin and other major piano composers whose work he adored - not that this fact is directly relevant to the subject under discussion here.

Who would copyright such garbage?
Please erase this composition of treachery from the face of earth.

I call for extermination of all records of Sorabji, his works, recordings, and all of those who "enjoy" his works. Why didn't Hitler file Sorabji lovers under the same category as homosexuals and Jews? The world would have been a better place if he had done so.

It seems unlikely that this post was intended to be taken seriously but - just for entertainment value - let's divert ourselves momentarily and try.

The copyright in OC was established in precisely the same way as is the case for all new compositions; the question here therefore seems redundant.

The identity/ies of those to whom the rather fatuous and unworkable erasure plea is intended to be addressed is as unclear as is that of the victims of the alleged "treachery" (and I had thought that "treachery" involved betrayal, so the use of the term here is also unclear); the call for "extermination" is self-evidently even more implausible of execution.

Poor Hitler; why blame him? - especially when he was almost certainly ignorant of the subject (and quite understandably so, since he was not a professional musician and no performances of Sorabji's music are known to have taken place in the Fatherland during his lifetime); after all, he departed this world long before there were any Sorabji recordings and before the dawn of the now burgeoning performance tradition in the composer's work. In any case, had he known more, who knows? - perhaps his much-vaunted love of Wagner might have prompted him to find something to admire in the larger-scale works of this very non-British and non-Jewish composer. But then - taken literally -  the question here seems only to bemoan Hitler's omission to "file" these individuals; it is therefore unclear what outcome of his greater efficiency as a filing clerk might have arisen had he actually done as the questioner seems to wish he had done.

To return hastily to more serious and less speculative matters, I am sorry have to to say that there is no more news on a new recording of OC yet. The latest situation, as we understand it, is that Jonathan Powell, who intends to make the next one, wishes to secure and give just two more public performances of it before he is prepared to commit himself to it in the studio. Everyone interested in the outcome of this will naturally share my hope that these events will all occur sooner rather than later.

Readers will doubtless be relieved to learn that I do not propose to be drawn into yet another series of exchanges about how to obtain Sorabji scores legitimately or why they should be obtained in that way, if for no better reason than that most people surely know by now how to get hold of these items and that we are here to help anyone who wants Sorabji information and material - and those who don't know will be aware of who to ask. Full stop. Amen.

I hope that the above answers whatever needed to be answered to the satisfaction of anyone who wanted some kind of answer from me.

Best,

Alistair

[henrah]

Well written!

[gymnopedist]

Actually, i heard this monstrosity FROM TWO different CDS! some ppl say No bad piece, only bad performance, but in this case i gots ta say, BAD PERFORMANCE for a BAD PIECE ! ! !  ! ! !  !
ANd Mr Sor-who-boo doeasnt understand nothin about HOW MUCH PPL CAN HEAR because HE WROTE MORE THAN ITS POSSIBLE TO HEEEEEEAAAAARRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And you clearly don't understand anything about legibility. Seriously though, is there any explanation for why he wrote so long pieces? Of course, he has shorter pieces, but a lot of his works seem to last for more than an hour...

[ahinton]

And you clearly don't understand anything about legibility. Seriously though, is there any explanation for why he wrote so long pieces? Of course, he has shorter pieces, but a lot of his works seem to last for more than an hour...

His own view was that composers should always try to get the length of each of his/her pieces as correct as possible and that, while length was no guarantee of greatness and profundity, neither was brevity a guarantee of worth. I think that, since he wrote piece that occupy between a few seconds and a few hours, he presumably exercised his mind sufficiently in regard to this consideration as it might apply to his own music. I rather doubt that he would have considered that the use of ever-incresingly large point sizes would of itself be an advantage in putting across his ideas...

Best,

Alistair

[ramseytheii]

wow that was totally unnecessary. you probably havent heard it once in your life. but i wont start another argument. its pointless to argue with people of lower intelligence. just leave before alistair hinton comes to pwn you.

It's a bizarre and ridiculous post, but the opinion is not unprecedented.  I was unable to find the full text in my library, but I recall Busoni using the word "ugly" to describe Sorabji's first sonata - which Sorabji played for him - in the subsequent letter of recommendation, which was by the way not entirely negative, but not exactly positive either.

Walter Ramsey

[luda888]

i have the score

pm me

[ahinton]

It's a bizarre and ridiculous post, but the opinion is not unprecedented.  I was unable to find the full text in my library, but I recall Busoni using the word "ugly" to describe Sorabji's first sonata - which Sorabji played for him - in the subsequent letter of recommendation, which was by the way not entirely negative, but not exactly positive either.

Walter Ramsey

To be fair, Busoni also declared his fascination with the work and he did, after all, comply with Sorabji request for a letter of recommendation to help him get the sonata published (this is, of course, the letter to which you refer and it is far more positive than it is negative - it is reproduced in full, along with Sorabji's own typescripted account of the occasion concerned, in the booklet accompanying Marc-André Hamelin's CD of the work which was released in 1990).

Best,

Alistair

[Ruro]

i have the score

pm me

Legendary Do you have a recording Luda? Haha

[luda888]

Legendary Do you have a recording Luda? Haha

lol, i dont have the recording. i have heard it before though.......... parts of it.

[jre58591]

i have a couple of recordings of OC. too bad my computer is screwed up. i already have enough promises to fulfill anyways.

[ahinton]

i have a couple of recordings of OC. too bad my computer is screwed up. i already have enough promises to fulfill anyways.

For anyone interested who does not already know, there have been three recordings of OC - two by Geoffrey Douglas Madge and one by John Ogdon. The Madge ones were taken from live performances in 1982 (Utrecht) and 1983 (Chicago) respectively and the Ogdon was a studio recording made in London and released in 1989 (the year of Ogdon's death). The first of Madge's was released in 1983 on LP on RCS (a long since defunct Dutch label) and has never been reissued, the second of Madge's was released on BIS (Sweden) in 1999 and is still available and the Ogdon is on Altarus (USA) and also still available. Visits to the websites of BIS and Altarus will yield details of these two currently available recordings.

Best,

Alistair

[opusclavicem]

Just to let you know. Anyone who bought the CD with MAdge would probably know this. Sorabji wrote this music intentionally to sound horrible. He wrote it to please his frineds. Not that he was on drugs.

[ahinton]

Just to let you know. Anyone who bought the CD with MAdge would probably know this. Sorabji wrote this music intentionally to sound horrible. He wrote it to please his frineds. Not that he was on drugs.

Is that supposed to be a comment on the quality of Madge's performance on the CDs concerned? If not, one may well wonder (from what you write) why you'd want even to discuss it.

Best,

Alistair

[soliloquy]

Is that supposed to be a comment on the quality of Madge's performance on the CDs concerned? If not, one may well wonder (from what you write_ why you'd want even to discuss it.

Best,

Alistair

haha opusclav's knowledge does seem pretty thorough on the OC; it's probably some layered, esoteric joke he hopes someone will get.  But we won't XD

[cmg]

Well, Sorabji certainly doesn't need my support (he's beyond need anyway), but my first real exploration of his music has been recent -- Fredrik Ullen's recording of the first 25 of the "100 Transcendental Studies" and Michael Habermann's mixed-bag recording of Sorabji trnascriptions.  (Finally, with the closing of Tower Records, NYC has a great record store again:  J&R music down by City Hall.  Huge Sorabji selection.  Imagine.  In a world ruled by Brittany Spears!!)

I was dazzled.  I know of few composers who sound absolutely like no other composer.  Sorabji's sound-world is entirely distinctive.  The Transcendental Studies are amazing.  As great as music gets. 

The transcriptions are thoroughly unique.  Sorabji, beyond all the compositional virtuosity, just spills over with original and astonishing ideas.  The "Minute Waltz" transcription, for one, is probably one of the few "serious" compositions I know that actually seems to have been written to provide humor.

This man's creativity was enough for 12 composers and if some of his works tend to run on the long side, well, it would appear that his creative faucet was clearly gushing.

I'm looking forward to getting to know these larger works.  But one step at a time.  I'm on a budget. 

[rschuering]

you can download it here https://en.scorser.com/I/Sheet+music/300171919.html 

[lostinidlewonder]

Page 65 looks hard.

[ahinton]

you can download it here https://en.scorser.com/I/Sheet+music/300171919.html  

You can download it illegally from that source, yes. Alternatively, you can obtain it legally for a modest sum as a .pdf file from The Sorabji Archive by writing to sorabji.archive@gmail.com .

This version will shortly become redundant anyway, as a brand new corrected typeset edition is now imminent and this will be obtainable from The Sorabji Archive but not from scorser .

Best,

Alistair

[cuberdrift]

I am under the impression that, while reputed to be among the very hardest of the hard playable piano pieces known, it surely isn't that much of an impressive feat to be able to perform and/or record the full work compared to what many famous pianists already do - record Complete Beethoven Sonatas? Complete Chopin Works? Complete 555 Scarlatti? Etc.?

One of the piano students I know in my conservatory even says that, while he acknowledges its insane complexity, he admits to agreeing to the notion that he may be able to perform the piece if he devoted all five years of study to just that one piece.

In short, how is playing this piece that much more impressive than playing a collection of shorter, easier pieces?

[klavieronin]

dont waste ur time. ANYONE WHO IS LEARNING THIS MUSIC IS JUST WASTIN THEIR TIMES.
its BAD music,
it CANT BE PLAYED,
it's UGGLY SOUNDIN,
and NOBODY WANTS TA LISTEN TO IT. MK?

I had no idea people viewed Sorabji with such scorn and vitriol. I always found his music to be relatively accessible compared to a lot of contemporary music. Frankly, I think he's underrated.

I call for extermination of all records of Sorabji, his works, recordings, and all of those who "enjoy" his works.  Why didn't Hitler file Sorabji lovers under the same category as homosexuals and Jews? The world would have been a better place if he had done so.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say there pies but it's a little unnerving. Surely you meant "Why didn't Hitler file Sorabji lovers under the [extermination] category [instead of] homosexuals and Jews?".

[ahinton]

I am under the impression that, while reputed to be among the very hardest of the hard playable piano pieces known, it surely isn't that much of an impressive feat to be able to perform and/or record the full work compared to what many famous pianists already do - record Complete Beethoven Sonatas? Complete Chopin Works? Complete 555 Scarlatti? Etc.?

One of the piano students I know in my conservatory even says that, while he acknowledges its insane complexity, he admits to agreeing to the notion that he may be able to perform the piece if he devoted all five years of study to just that one piece.

In short, how is playing this piece that much more impressive than playing a collection of shorter, easier pieces?

It's not about how impressive it is to do this; it's the sheer fact that the work is fearsomely demanding, as anyone who has studied and performed it knows very well!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I had no idea people viewed Sorabji with such scorn and vitriol. I always found his music to be relatively accessible compared to a lot of contemporary music. Frankly, I think he's underrated.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say there pies but it's a little unnerving. Surely you meant "Why didn't Hitler file Sorabji lovers under the [extermination] category [instead of] homosexuals and Jews?".

"pies" can call for whatever he/she wants, although far fewer people will listen than listen to Opus Clavicembalisticum, of which Jonathan Powell alone has already given three performances this year and is about to give three more.

I wouldn't waste my tme responding to his absurd statement about Hitler except to point out tht the likelihood that Hitler was aware of Sorabji's work and had views on it is about as vanishingly small as is the mentality of someone who writes as "pies" did here.

A new typeset edition of the work will be issued shortly.

Best,

Alistair

[cuberdrift]

It's not about how impressive it is to do this; it's the sheer fact that the work is fearsomely demanding, as anyone who has studied and performed it knows very well!

Best,

Alistair

Then, as I understand it, the "impressiveness" of the act comes, then, from the realization that one has actually successfully performed a single work of such magnitude.

It might be the same as being more frightened of the power of a single atom bomb compared to the thousands of lesser bombs dropped by hundreds of B-17's which, collectively, are more devastating.

[ahinton]

Then, as I understand it, the "impressiveness" of the act comes, then, from the realization that one has actually successfully performed a single work of such magnitude.

It might be the same as being more frightened of the power of a single atom bomb compared to the thousands of lesser bombs dropped by hundreds of B-17's which, collectively, are more devastating.

The "impressiveness" is in the music itself and its expressive power, provided that it's in the right hands to enable this to come to the fore.

Best,

Alistair

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I don't get what's the big deal he's dead so how can you illegally get his music?

[abel2]

I don't get the hate for the piece. It seems like everyone just piles on to bash it because it's long, hard, and dissonant. I mean, for god's sake, sit down and listen to the Coda. The counterpoint is absolutely brilliant and the ending is downright triumphant. There should be no doubt that it's a fantastic piece of music.

[stevensk]

Compared to learning the entire WTC for two years, it is an incredible waste of time.

[ahinton]

I don't get what's the big deal he's dead so how can you illegally get his music?

Quite simply because the work remains in copyright. As copyright in Sorabji's works in vestged within The Sorabji Archive, distribution of copies of it other than by the archive itself is illegal unless by that archive's written permission. In that respect, Sorabji's no different from any other composer whose work is not in the public domain.

Best,

Alistair

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Quite simply because the work remains in copyright. As copyright in Sorabji's works in vestged within The Sorabji Archive, distribution of copies of it other than by the archive itself is illegal unless by that archive's written permission. In that respect, Sorabji's no different from any other composer whose work is not in the public domain.

Best,

Alistair

this is where I have conflicting views with the law -.-

[ahinton]

this is where I have conflicting views with the law

Well, that's your problem, if I may say so. Just out of interest, what do you think that the law should instead provide in respect of intellectual property rights?

Best,

Alistair