Began a new analysis...

[steve jones]

Lastnight I decided I would have a blast at the big fella - Chopin Ballade Op23!

I intend to describe:

- motif's and development

- harmonic progression

- form

First I have 'chopped' up the piece into sections - I have:

- Thematic material A (1, 2 and 3 etc)
- Thematic material B
- Thematic material C
- Thematic material D
- Misc material

Basically, it appears to me that there are 4 main themese which are exposed and consequently reappear thoughout the piece in different forms. The first theme takes the form of a Waltz, while the second sounds more like a Nocturne for example until it is reintroduced in forte.

There are also three sections of what Iv named 'Misc Material' - the intro, virtuosic interlude and coda closing sections. These I will attempt to describe while referencing back to the thematic material (for instance, the main motif featuring in the close of the coda section).

This may take a while, but should be a fun little project. I will ofcourse post the results up for you in some form or another.

Any suggestions?

SJ

[pianistimo]

interesting and good ideas.  it's been awhile since i've done a lot of analysis, but feel that i learned a little bit last year in a piano concerto class that helped.  the teacher said to look for 'points of articulation' to mark sections.  so as i see it - ur 'waltz theme' is starting at measure 8, transition mm.32-35 and the 'nocturne theme' is starting at measure 36.  the point of articulation not being a rest , per se, but an obvious change to 'a tempo' and some changes in the rhythmic structure (second beat accented).  to me, this is more reminiscent of the polonaise and the 'nocturne' element might be more at measure 67-68 (meno mosso)? at measure 106 there is a 'military polonaise' type feel.  do u think?

thanks for bringing out these ideas of different styles within one ballade.  u definately hear them, too.  at measure 158 harmonically it seems to 'end' on e minor with a 'sf.'  then suddenly we have piano.  this is another 'point of articulation.'  lots of transitional stuff. we know that there is something chopin has in mind to do.  he seems to take little snippets of memories of the themes but adds some chromaticism inbetween the chords and notes.  seems that he is speeding up the melody (theme A)snippet esp. at measure 180 by making this transition virtuosic and in triplets now.

the true return of the A section is at m. 194 but at 199 swerves off the beaten path (just as brahms liked to do) and so unless u have a really good memiory (ur going oops) and it's taking u somewhere else.  the presto con fuoco at m 208 seems like a scherzo.  am i right? the ending seems like a huge cadenza.  starting at m. 242.   

[steve jones]

So great suggestions, thanks Pianistimo.

Yeah, I totally agree that the coda section is very much like the Scherzo's, as is much of the transitional material too.

Plenty of chromatisism in the harmonic progression, featuring secondary dominants (and substitutes) in abundance. Also, Iv noticed that he uses quite a few chord inversions, in order to allow the bass to move stepwise.

The transition in the middle (between the 'polonaise' recaps of the second theme) reminds me very much of the Etudes and Preludes - the fast melodic passage work in the RH with jumping harmonic accompaniment in the other.



SJ

[cjp_piano]

SJ --
Where do you have the different themes?  Waltz feel at m. 8, nocturne at 68?  I think pianistimo thought you meant nocturne-like at m. 36, but it's still "waltzy!"

Anyway, I find 2 main themes (with several transitions that could be other themes in themselves).

Theme A is the waltzy one (m. 8 )
Theme B is the nocturnish one (m. 68)

Section:   A          B          A            B          (C?)         B          A         Coda
Measure:  8          68        94         106        138         166        194        208
Key:        Gm       EbM      Am         AM        EbM         EbM         Gm        Gm


I notice the keys, and it's interesting that he uses not the relative major key of Bb, but Eb instead.  The Second A theme is in A minor, with a dominant pedal on E instead of root position chords like the beginning.  This makes it feel unresolved and we anticipate what's coming, which is the return of the B theme, but in A Major now, instead of the original Eb Major.

The C section at m.138 seems pretty Scherzo-like to me, since it's in triple time, fast, and crazy!  To me, it's reminiscent of the m. 36 section (more evident in the LH figures).

Pianistimo was talking about m. 158, I think he meant to say Eb major, not E minor.  But notice that for these several measures of transition, it's really an expansion of a V 6/4 chord (or I 6/4 however you want to look at it).  The Bb (V) is in the bass with a weird Cb leading to the Bb again that becomes a V chord (V13 actually) in m. 166 to get us back into Eb Major for the B theme.

I love all the different ideas in the Ballades.  Of course, that's what a Ballade is: a story.  So naturally there will be different scenes and events.  I love the little return of the motive of the A theme at the very end of the coda (m. 253, 257) tying it all together 


 

[steve jones]

Yeah, I initially thought of the two main themes. But then I noticed that the some of the apparently transitional material reappears later on. For example, the new material at bar 36 reappears in the coda, be it well developed.

So in all, I have down four themes. I would give you bar numbers, but my score is in pdf and doesnt have numbers! I really must print it out and mark them on.

Yeah, you are quite correct about the main motif, it features all over the shop. But I like how it appears at the end aswell - very conclusive imo.

SJ

[pianistimo]

at measure 36, the reason i thought it sounded polonaise-like is because there is an accent on the second beat (similar to polonaise idea).  also, at the ending - it seems like some of chopin's fantasie's.  am looking at it again tonight.  i am a very amateur analyst ,but i like to just look at things and think about them.  i will write in the key signatures that cjp gave and re-think these things.  sometimes a combo of ideas works.  u know when u analyze something - u can give several layers and even though a theme repeats (u can add details and stuff - calling it A1 instead of exact repeat of A).  because i don't do these things every day - it usually takes me a long time to analyze - but it gets my mind off of mundane chores (that i've been doing all day).  btw, i'm not him.  i'm her. 

cjp - was looking at the lengths of the sections and wondering why measure 36 wouldn't get the same importance as the return of the A theme in m. 94.  each of these 'sections are a page or page and a half.  that's my thinking FOR the 'polonaise' idea.  don't know what u'd call it  (all four sections)  maybe  A , sub a, then B, then A1 (variant which starts on different note and leads to different outcome)?  the first A theme seems to 'pull down' and the second 'pull up' (chromaticism leading upwards).

m 36 and m 138 have distinct similarities in the lh.  do analysts normally not call it a different section if it (possible second section) is in the same key as the theme that came before (talking about first A theme and then measure 36 being in the same g minor key).

[cjp_piano]

at measure 36, the reason i thought it sounded polonaise-like is because there is an accent on the second beat (similar to polonaise idea). 

I thought you said it was nocturne-like

i will write in the key signatures that cjp gave and re-think these things. 

the key signature never changes, but you can tell what key it's in by the accidentals and harmonic structure.  I wouldn't write in key signatures, maybe just write "Eb" or whatever at the beginning of that section.

cjp - was looking at the lengths of the sections and wondering why measure 36 wouldn't get the same importance as the return of the A theme in m. 94.  each of these 'sections are a page or page and a half. 

That's a question for Chopin, ha ha.  Is the measure 36 section of same importance as the return of the A theme just because it's the same length on the page?  Some of the transitions are that length, too, but I would just consider them transitions.

m 36 and m 138 have distinct similarities in the lh.  do analysts normally not call it a different section if it (possible second section) is in the same key as the theme that came before (talking about first A theme and then measure 36 being in the same g minor key).

I wouldn't call it a completely different section, because it's still in the same key, same waltz-feel, etc.  I was just saying that at m. 138, it reminded me of m. 36.  What you do when you analyze isn't just naming sections, but explaining WHY it works.  So whether you call m. 36  A2 or B or XX, it doesn't really matter, what matters is your explanation of what's going on in the piece.

[pianistimo]

sorry about the use of 'key signatures.'  i meant key in my head.  i just write in the new key below the staff to remind myself of modulations to new keys.  these are 'points of articulation' to me just as much as having a feel of a polonaise, nocturne, or waltz.  i tend to think the polonaise idea fits (having second beat accented) and was just spinning off of steve's idea.  but, you're right - chopin wouldn't be doing something without purpose or planning.  have to look into it some more.  he can do two things at once -  he can transition at the same time as he does something else.

[cjp_piano]

i tend to think the polonaise idea fits (having second beat accented)

Isn't it the Mazurka that accents the second beat? 

[pianistimo]

i have to confess ignorance on knowing what separates a polonaise and a mazurka.  i guess they are both in 3/4 - but perhaps the mazurka (being faster) feels more like a polka and because the other feels like a march or promenade? and is slower - u don't feel the third beat so much?  (so the second beat on a polonaise wouldn't seem to be accented even tho u have . ..  . . . .  (one and a two and three and...) 

was reading that chopin's sister used 'bam bum bum' to explain the rhythm of his mazurka's. definately a second beat accent.  got it from this site:  www.rps.psu.edu/sep99/chopin.html

i'm irritated this morning because now i can't find my chopin ballade book.  maybe the speed is the indication of a polonaise or mazurka?  perhaps in this case it is the mazurka.  also, the general feel?  (is a polonaise always more sad and reserved and slow?)  fromt he above article - it also said that the mazurka combined three different dances at times.  the polonaise generally keeps the same military like feel with the eighth, two-eighths beginning?

[moi_not_toi]

Hmmmm.
motives.

I would suggest buying the Buch Der Motives by R. Wagner. Gives them all in piano reduction.

[pianistimo]

that's a good idea.  i didn't know richard wagner had done that with chopin.

[moi_not_toi]

that's a good idea.  i didn't know richard wagner had done that with chopin.

OYVEY!!
oops. didn't read the rest of it. I just saw motives and thought Wagner.

[steve jones]

I think that book only covers Wagner's Opera's, right?

SJ

[pianistimo]

well, there's definately a sort of similarity between motives in wagner - because he takes them and makes them 'germanic' totally - just as chopin takes polish themes and ideas and expands upon them.  they both were trying to get a nationalistic theme across and not just music for music's sake.  they're both a cry to arms.

here's a bit of comparison of their ability to use 'tone color':
www.usc.edu/dept/polish_music/PMJ/issue/5.2.02/stojowskichopin.html

(second paragraph - 'chopin: colorist')

[moi_not_toi]

Sorry, really didn't mean to jump the gun, but I got happy when I saw "MOTIVES" so I wrote without thinking.

[steve jones]

Chopin certainly does like to pull motivic tricks in his music. And this is no more apparent than in his Op23 ballade. As has already been mentioned, the way he brings the first themes motif back at the end if just fantastic.

But Im not sure whether he does this quite to the extent of, say, Mozart? I mean, Iv seen people analyse Mozart's melodies as almost completely motivic.

SJ