Don't mean to be sexist but..

[paulmoony]

I see way more famous male pianists than famous female pianists.
What's going on here?

[nanabush]

not that much more..... there's a lot of well known female pianists.... but sitll ya male does outrank

[bflatminor24]

No, there are a lot more male professionals. We have virtuosi like Martha Argerich but she is the ONLY one that comes to mind when people say "female pianist." And Idil Biret isn't what I would call a virtuoso even though her repertoire is expansive. And even if you include her, that's two I can name, and I have literally hundreds of recording artists in my library.

[steve jones]

Iv heard it said that equally as many (if not more) women train to become pianists, yet still fewer get there. Dont know if this is true, or why if it is.

Is it possible that fewer women possess the physicial attributes to handle life as a pro pianist?

SJ

[Derek]

the women have babies and care for them. people are more important than music.

[steve jones]

Where do babies come from though?

SJ

[ramseytheii]

No, there are a lot more male professionals. We have virtuosi like Martha Argerich but she is the ONLY one that comes to mind when people say "female pianist." And Idil Biret isn't what I would call a virtuoso even though her repertoire is expansive. And even if you include her, that's two I can name, and I have literally hundreds of recording artists in my library.

I guess you don't know many pianists!

Walter Ramsey

[ada]

I see way more famous male pianists than famous female pianists.
What's going on here?

I see way more dopey male pf members than female.

What's going on here?

[bartolomeo_]

Well, you forgot Uchida and probably a host of others.

Relatively few pianists get the opportunity to record major works as soloists or perform in a public concert setting.  Doing so requires, in addition to ability, a confluence of personal factors, connections, a willingness to make major sacrifices, and luck.

Most pianists, men and women, go into teaching or end up accepting relatively low-visibility local gigs.

And there is discrimination in the music industry, though perhaps not as bad as was once the case.

[moi69]

bon j'écris en français, mais c'est pour dire tout d'abord que c'est comme pour le sport: les hommes ont de plus grandes capacités physiques, endurance, force, puissance, etc... je sais plus qui disait (Diderot je crois) que les femmes sont de mauvaises artistes (comédiennes ou musiciennes) car elles sont  trop "sensibles" et se laissent emporter par leurs émotions au lieu ede réfléchir! A voir...

[invictious]

je ne comprend pas..
parlez l'anglais s'il vous plaiz.

[pianistimo]

maybe women have to be more aggressive in finding their own arenas to perform.  one pianist (cousin of my husband) regularly performs in japan.  she might be less well known here, but hasn't let it bother her.  i think u have to have an attitude of success and not believe that people can manipulate your dreams.  i think she's personally very satisfied (so the competition stuff is really far behind her).  she married a composer and they seem to be quite content.  no children - but she teaches many many - so those kids ARE her children.

[ahinton]

I see way more famous male pianists than famous female pianists.
What's going on here?

I see way more dopey male pf members than female.

What's going on here?

Er - wait a minute. In the first case, I can only imagine that "paulmoony" isn't looking closely enough and in the second I wonder what kind of enhanced vision you have, since I was unaware that the sexual identity of each and every forum member was necessarily clear; how do you know for sure which contributor is male and which female - or are you occasionally just making assumptions from their post content?

In any case, there are plenty of female solo pianists, although I would admit that their numbers are rather less than those of male solo pianists. The same might be said of other instrumentalists to a lesser degree, but is it true of singers? (sorry to widen the terms of reference here, but I do so only briefly).

The arguments posed by some in this thread about there being less female piano soloists because of child-rearing duties suggest that some people seem to think that all potential female pianists are somehow obliged to decide between the two activities. If so - what utter rubbish!

Best,

Alistair

[ail]

No, there are a lot more male professionals. We have virtuosi like Martha Argerich but she is the ONLY one that comes to mind when people say "female pianist." And Idil Biret isn't what I would call a virtuoso even though her repertoire is expansive. And even if you include her, that's two I can name, and I have literally hundreds of recording artists in my library.

Well, I can think of Hélène Grimaud and Maria João Pires, but actually I'd like to know how well considered are they. Plus, I do not know if they're really virtuosi. That isn't too important for me, as long as they are concert pianists.

Alex

[ramseytheii]

Well, I can think of Hélène Grimaud and Maria João Pires, but actually I'd like to know how well considered are they. Plus, I do not know if they're really virtuosi. That isn't too important for me, as long as they are concert pianists.

Alex

\



Anyways, blfatminor didn't say "female virtuoso," he said "female pianist," and his own admission that he has only ever heard of Biret and Argerich as far as women pianists are concerned says a lot more about his own narrow exposure to classical piano, than it does about any issue of females in music!

Walter Ramsey

[thalbergmad]

It is purely a matter of hand/eye co-ordination why there are not as many great women pianists as great men pianists.

For instance, women struggle for ages to get the right money out of their purse when the bus comes. In addition, they make crap dart players.

Simple when you think about it.

Thal

[ahinton]

It is purely a matter of hand/eye co-ordination why there are not as many great women pianists as great men pianists.

For instance, women struggle for ages to get the right money out of their purse when the bus comes. In addition, they make crap dart players.

Simple when you think about it.

Thal

You's a-gonna get yaself flamed to hell for that! And then someone who might take your post more seriously will take you to task for only knowing about women who need to catch a bus in the first place. As for dart playing -well, how many women do that at all? - probably not quite sufficient for you to cite what you perceive to be their generic lack of prowess in that department.

Your post was a good laugh, though - which nobody can deny (only just wait for some people to do just that!)...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Alistair, you have encapsulated yourself.

[ahinton]

Alistair, you have encapsulated yourself.

So I did, an' all! Painful, it was, too! Sometimes I just don't realise the sheer extent of my talents and so I'm immensely grateful to someone who's mad about Thalberg to draw some of them to my attention!

More haste, less - er - well, you can interpret "speed" how you like, I guess...

Bah! (that's short for Bach)

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

everyone knows that women are better at ping-pong than men.  'friendship matches' can turn deadly if a man plays a woman.

similarly, women can play very delicate passages with ease on the piano.  wanda landowska would be my choice of pianist to describe the ease of playing bach or whatever in a sort of harpsichord fashion. 

i think clara schumann would  have given most guys a run for their money in the memory department and musicality.


 

[bflatminor24]

everyone knows that women are better at ping-pong than men.  'friendship matches' can turn deadly if a man plays a woman.

similarly, women can play very delicate passages with ease on the piano.  wanda landowska would be my choice of pianist to describe the ease of playing bach or whatever in a sort of harpsichord fashion. 

i think clara schumann would  have given most guys a run for their money in the memory department and musicality.

What are you talking about? Ping Pong? Where did you come up with that? I've never witnessed this, nor read it, nor heard of it, nor anything.

And Clara Schumann? Oh, and I suppose you have a recording to refer to? What's to prevent someone from saying her technique blew when compared to Alkan, Liszt and Anton Rubinstein?

Nothing backs up what you said, mang.

Argerich has the technique, too bad she plays too fast in most of her recordings. That said however I do really like her Chopin Preludes.

~Max~
 

[lamia]

Here's a quote from Rubenstein female protege, Janina Fialkowska, which I found interesting:

"I think there's another reason, too, why we womendon't take too well to this [piano] profession [Fialkowska first mentioned motherhood] - and I'll probablly have a lot of women jumping down my throat for this one - I just don't think we're that strong. I'm sure I get much more fatigued that my male colleagues. I try not to admit it, or give in to it, but there are times when I can hardly move, I'm so tired. One of my best friends is Emanuel Ax, and I notice how nervous and tired he occasionally gets from the amount of playing he does; he even sometimes looks unhealthy, and I try to avoid that degree of tiredness. Although with the fatigue he can manage wonderfully with a bigger schedule that nime. Perhaps I too could cope, but perhaps not. Yet I can't help feeling that that's one of the reasons more women don't enter the field -- we simply get tired more easily.
   [...] I played the Liszt Transcendental Etudes, which is not an easy thing to do. I did it just to show that I could. The same holds true for the Brahms and the 3rd Rachmaninoff. I know it's pushy, but I love the pieces. But eight years ago I was attempting the same works; I was just everywhere in the chord passages and octave passages. I just didn't have that feeling of absolute power that some of my very short, and somewhat weak, male colleagues had. They could play those pieces and it just sounded huge. So I told myself that I'd just have to learn to do it, and I worked, and worked, and worked.

[raskolnikov]

Here you go:
https://www.pianowomen.com/

[m]

Speaking of motherhood, a very dear friend of mine (female) played a concert, where at the first half was complete Transcendental Etudes, and at the second--Hammerklavier. She was eight month pregnant then...
A few months after her daughter was born she gave another concert--Chopin 24 etudes.
 
There are a lot of female pianists which tremendously affected whole music art. Anna Esipoff, Teresa Carrenio, Olga Samaroff, Myra Hess, Anna Fisher, Wanda Landowska, Rosalyn Turek, just to name a very few.
Rumour, but when Richter was asked who is the best pianist in the world, he answered: "Maria Yudina". The next question was: "And who would be among male pianists"--his answer: "Maria Yudina".

There is one pianist--Ekaterina Novitskaya. Even connoisseurs hardly know this name. At the age of 16 she won Gold Medal on Quine Elizabeth.
Never ever in my life I heard such Prelude Choral and Fuge, Brahms 3rd Sonata, or Scriabin.

So many other great names we don't know. But if we don't know them, it does not mean they are not great. The interesting thing, in fact, the GREATESTs most of the time ARE in the shade...

[jas]

the women have babies and care for them. people are more important than music.

... What?

Speaking of motherhood, a very dear friend of mine (female) played a concert, where at the first half was complete Transcendental Etudes, and at the second--Hammerklavier. She was eight month pregnant then...
A few months after her daughter was born she gave another concert--Chopin 24 etudes.

Good for her. See, Derek? The fact that women have babies is irrelevant.

Women are multitaskers, so maybe that means we're better equipped with the necessary hand-eye-foot-mouth coordination necessary to play the piano, turn pages and hold a conversation at the same time. That's a valuable skill, you know.

[pianistimo]

the last four posters seem more moderate in their views, although i might conceed that lamia's post was possibly true about stamina and energy levels being overall consistent from day to day moreso for men and their being able to handle stress levels and tiredness better.  i did find it interesting that it didn't make her say 'well, this is now an excuse.'  she just went and worked some more - so that one day it would be easy (as it seems to be for emmanuel ax). 

i don't think there ever was or will be a battle of the sexes over playing the piano.  it's just not a warring instrument.  it very conveniently allows for the tastes and technique and love of all who play it.  to hear a woman play a concerto is no less thrilling than a man - it's just that sometimes different parts are brought out.  i found at the last helene grimaud rach concerto here that  she understood the concept of the instruments speaking to the piano and the piano responding (and not plowing over everyone and being the 'solo' instrument for ego's sake).  i enjoyed the lighter french version of rach - but at the same time - enjoy people who play heavier as well.  it's just going to a concert with an open mind and not really having an exact interpretation that u want to hear.  otherwise, you'll always be dissappointed it didn't sound like 'so and so.'

maybe it's all in appreciation.  just to enjoy what u hear and expect to hear a lot of sensitivity from women (and some moments of power and passion) - but for it to be usually reversed with men.  now, there are a few exceptions to this rule - because i happen to think my teacher is a very unusually sensitive player.  i think of him also as a sort of 'international' pianist instead of simply an 'american pianist.'  the reason for this is that he plays all sorts of music equally well.  for women and men - this is a huge feat.  i think u have to travel and understand cultures.  this is a highly difficult thing to do - to make time to understand a culture AND their music.  guess there are not that many of this type of pianist around - who are not playing so other's hear THEM but so that others hear the MUSIC - hear the soul of what is being played.

[pianistimo]

oh, and bflatminor24, what i refer to in terms of believing clara schumann was good is that she had a conductor for a father, had many fans, and liszt himself praised her.  i don't think that u can discredit the things spoken of her in her lifetime.  sometimes u realize that if a composer like brahms would be utterly in love with her and tells of her ablility to play virtuosic things admittedly much better than himself - he would not have fallen for a slouch.

why can't u admit that women can be good too.  are u sexist?

i think when i read about her (pg 229 of 'the great pianists') i was struck by this:

'the pencil sketch image is apt, for with her temperate use of the pedal and her avoidance of pronounced rubato effects, the playing would be intimate and even prissy against the tumultuous orchestration of the liszt school.  she detested speed and empty passagework.  if a student tried 'to rattle through any rapid figuration with mere empty virtuosity,' adelina de lara has written, clara would throw up her hands in despair.  'keine passagen!' she would cry.  'why hurry over beautiful things?  why not linger and enjoy them?'  this was anti-virtuosity with a vengeance.  clara's restrained rubato greatly disturbed some of the late romantic pianists.'

she seemed a schumanesque figure to me - and represented the feminine side of music in my mind.  not that women can't have passion - but it was not the kind of passion that rips off all her clothes and dances on the piano.

[pianistimo]

btw, i am fairly outspoken in my critiques in the past of any concert i happen to hear and never said i thought helene was perfect in everything.  in the concert that i heard - i thought that maybe she lost a little umph (maybe it was a rhythmic thing with the orchestra) toward the end of the concerto.  sometimes people have a bad day - so u can't just make a 'final judgement' of them without hearing them play other things on other days.  i would definately want to hear her play again.  i think people expect performers to be 100% good 100% of the time.  this only happens with a few select ones and i don't know how they have time to do anything else but practice.

[ahinton]

Women are multitaskers, so maybe that means we're better equipped with the necessary hand-eye-foot-mouth coordination necessary to play the piano, turn pages and hold a conversation at the same time. That's a valuable skill, you know.

Not on the concert platform, it isn't...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

in 'the great pianists' - clara schumann is listed many times.  also listed is adele aus der ohe - who worked with liszt for seven years.  in 1891 she played at the carnegie hall inaugural in nyc.  her piece was the tchaikovsky concerto in b flat minor, with the COMPOSER conducting.

sophie menter, liszt's favorite female pupil ' the dynamism of her playing, her blend of virtuosity and poetry, put her in a class by herself until the flowering of teresa carreno.

julie rive-king, the first of american's great woman pianists.  after her studies with liszt, she returned to america to give over 4,000 solo recitals and moke over 500 appearances with orchestra.

as for knowing a pianist by their students as well, olga samaroff would be one.

thanks to raskolnikov, we also have a more complete list up-to-date.  i've only heard helene grimaud, live.  but, i'd like to hear argerich and others.  valentina lisitsa was highly recommended by someone i know who heard her in ny.  her chopin is supposed to be extraordinary.

i think it's very true, also, what was said about unknown's.  i happened to hear some of the most fantastic chopin from a female piano student in alaska - and have never heard better to date.  a lot of stamina, passion, and technique.  she would bring u into the 'setting' of the music really well, too.  u know how liszt and chopin create a scene or a setting at the beginning of their ballades or whatever - and it was so amazing to hear this woman because immediately it was like u were hypnotized by the beginning and had to follow it through.

[pianistimo]

ps  her name is beverly holt/guth.  i just looked her up on the internet and i think she resides in parker, colorado now.  she has a site here:

www.privatelessons.com/daypoint/media/editbio.asp?mode=view&userid=5312

to me, she's living clara schumann.  she's extremely talented performer and a GREAT teacher!

another great female teacher in the virginia area is louise billaud.  she is of the lisztian side more.  she plays very difficult music with ease as well.  sometimes these 'hidden' people can be amazing to find.  and, they have great backgrounds.  for louise - she is married to jean-paul billaud - who is a great great teacher!  doesn't overlook details.  she has her own talents, but he has been a mentor.

her site:  www.nr.edu/billaud/pages/bio.htm

[pianochild]

I see way more famous male pianists than famous female pianists.
What's going on here?

I think you mean that there are a lot more male COMPOSERS then female, not pianists.

[elevateme]

i dont know.. i think he might mean pianists. anyway whoever said that about multi tasking was right - girls can concentrate on separate parts at once, whereas guys have to try and concentrate on them as a whole - it gives us a huge advantage.

however women cant drive as well as guys because their spacial awareness is not as good.

[monsieurrenard]

bon j'écris en français, mais c'est pour dire tout d'abord que c'est comme pour le sport: les hommes ont de plus grandes capacités physiques, endurance, force, puissance, etc... je sais plus qui disait (Diderot je crois) que les femmes sont de mauvaises artistes (comédiennes ou musiciennes) car elles sont  trop "sensibles" et se laissent emporter par leurs émotions au lieu ede réfléchir! A voir...

Translation:

It's like in sports: Men are more physical, have better endurance, strength, etc... I can't remember who said so (Diderot I think) that women are bad artistes (comedians, musicians) because they're too sensible and let themselves be distracted by their emotions instead of reasoning! Maybe that's it.

______________________


In my opinion, the only reason why we don't have many female artists is because we live in an inherently chauvinist society. In developped countries it's slowly starting to change, but 80% of the world still treats women like inferior beings.

-Monsieur Le Renard.

[letters]

ar monsieurrenard you beat me to it! i was going to test out my a level french skills.... except i dont agree with moi69. i agree with you monsieurrenard that the music business is sexist as is most other businesses and that hopefully equality is restored because im sure that there are just as many virtuoso female pianists, its just they have been denied teaching/ recording opportunities because of their sex.

[raskolnikov]

Honestly, this argument can be transposed to many different fields and it often is.   For example, why aren't there women in the sciences, government, etc.  And the same answers are given and have been for many years, so I really don't feel like giving an argument either way.

My problem with the argument is that it is a little utilitarian.  Namely, that a gender/peoples are only worth what they produce or the kinds of people they produce.  One of the main problems with this kind of thinking is it can justify racism, sexism and/or discrimination.  In my opinion it is best to just drop this discussion before it turns into a flame war.

[cellodude]

Whatever the differences between men and women, I know for sure that men are definitely better at the foot-in-mouth coordination 

dennis lee