Complaint: Lack of "Schubertmindedness" in the Forum

[cloches_de_geneve]

Don't get me wrong: I like this forum a lot. However, I find its focus on a select number of virtuosistic pieces (mostly by Liszt, Chopin, Rach, Skrijabin, Prokofieff, Beethoven: mostly Waldstein, Appassionata, op. 111, Hammerklavier etc.) somewhat monotonous.

For example, why are there virtually no exchanges about Schubert's last 8 piano sonatas? They are among the gems of advanced piano literature. But not many seems to play, let alone discuss them here. You think they might be too easy to impress? I can reassure you: they are not easy, indeed tricky enough to pose some serious technical challenges even to the accomplished virtuoso (e.g., D850, D958) not to speak of the musical demands. Thus, requiring advanced technique in combination with the highest musical intelligence, they are a true test of craftmanship, indeed more so than most Liszt, Rach or Prokoffieff, and perhaps even Chopin).

At the risk of sounding arrogant, in my modest view, if a pianist is not able to convince a rigorous jury with a couple of these sonatas and a couple of Mozart sonatas, they should think about switching profession (even if their Rachs, Liszts and Appassionatas are great).

[m]

For example, why are there virtually no exchanges about Schubert's last 8 piano sonatas?

In light of this forum, maybe because it is much less appropriate to rank them... unlike Chopin Etudes, for example

[cloches_de_geneve]

In light of this forum, maybe because it is much less appropriate to rank them... unlike Chopin Etudes, for example

Very funny
and besides, it could actually be quite interesting to start a new poll about their relative overall difficulty - if only these sonatas were played more often.

[m]

Very funny

Why?

About 25 years ago I also was very interested in this kind of ranking. I passionately wanted to know which of Chopin etudes is the most difficult. I really wanted to know what is more difficult Islamey or Brahms Paganini, Schumann Toccata or Feux Follets, Don Juan or Marriage of Figaro or Spanish Rhapsody, Rachmaninov 3 or Tchaikowski 1, or Brahms 2. To figure it out, since then I played all of this stuff and still am working on some.

My classmates (some of them are really very famous now) were interested in the same and did the same--practiced to figure it out for themselves. Unlike some clowns, who claim they prepared 10/2 for a concert performance in a couple weeks... but only the first page, those folks from Moscow Concervatory refined 10/2 or 25/6 for years an hour every day, and most of them had... quite good technical abilities, to start with.

It is quite amusing, after years of studying with some of the best teachers in the world, sharing experience and being close friends with some of the greatest pianists, practicing for 8 hours every day for most of the life to figure things out, one comes on this forum just to get an answer something like sarcastic: "There is kind of people who knows better..."
It is also amusing on this forum when somebody who heard only one performance of something and votes for it as the best, and you suggest to have a listen to some others just to hear back about "right for opinion".
It is like somebody who never saw a real wheel tells you: "Look, this wheel is square--it seems to work fine for me", you answer: "Try to get round one--round works the best" and you hear back: "Sorry man, I beleive the square works the best and will stick with it". 

So where were we?... Oh yeah, Schubert Sonatas...
I was on Richter's recital where he performed G major. He played it the slowest tempo one could imagine, but the musical tension was such that whole audience just got frozen up.  It was magnificient. After the last chord it seemed like a nonsense to ruine the silence with stupid applauses. After the concert nobody even seem to want to share their feelings--it seemed that for every one it was such a deep personal experience.

When you perform this music, it is already not about what you can do on the piano, but about who you are--it is just way too personal to start talking about on a public forum.

And now lets rank and vote.

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

I am playing Schubert's 4th Impromptu right now. Who can say that the piece isn't magnificent, let alone trio. This forum is concerned with the "show off" pieces too much, and not give enough attention to many sensual and beautifull works.

[presto agitato]

I play Schubert´s  Musical Moment Op 94-2. Great piece and very underrated.

His sonta in A major is a triumph.

Schubert is the best after Beethoven

[Motrax]

Schubert's Gb major impromptu is what really introduced me to his genius.

I recently went to a recital of Leon Fleischer's where he played the Bb major sonata (D 960, right?) - it was one of the most memerable performances I've ever heard (although his shaky technique got the better of him in some of the other repertoire he played). I was nearly in tears by the end of the second movement (because it was good, not bad ). Fourth movement was unbelievable too...

And Schubert's chamber music requires a whole other forum! 

[debussy symbolism]

Schubert's Gb major impromptu is what really introduced me to his genius.

I recently went to a recital of Leon Fleischer's where he played the Bb major sonata (D 960, right?) - it was one of the most memerable performances I've ever heard (although his shaky technique got the better of him in some of the other repertoire he played). I was nearly in tears by the end of the second movement (because it was good, not bad ). Fourth movement was unbelievable too...

And Schubert's chamber music requires a whole other forum! 

Oh yeah, concerning Schubert's chamber music. I have heard one quartet, I think, on the Arts chanel. Saying that it blew me away is putting it mildly.

[steve jones]

Funnily enough I was listening to a Schubert piano sonata just now, and a wonderful piece it was too (No 13 I think, D664).

SJ

[brewtality]

So where were we?... Oh yeah, Schubert Sonatas...
I was on Richter's recital where he performed G major. He played it the slowest tempo one could imagine, but the musical tension was such that whole audience just got frozen up.  It was magnificient. After the last chord it seemed like a nonsense to ruine the silence with stupid applauses. After the concert nobody even seem to want to share their feelings--it seemed that for every one it was such a deep personal experience.

I think this is one of Richter's supreme gifts; to play so slowly but never bore the audience, rather enlighten and captivate them. Of course, I only know his schubert from cds but I expect it must have been such a magical experience in the concert hall.

[debussy symbolism]

Just thought that I would say this. This forum is kind of an allegory of the "world out there", in its approach to the certain composers or piano works of a certain character, which is virtuosity. Flashy music is easier to listen to, and to talk about. The "masses",(such a bad word) enjoys "pop" music, which is easy to listen to. Music such as the Grand Galop Chromatique is easier to listen to comparatively than to lets, say a Schumann piece.

This might be self evident, but just thought I'd share that.

[debussy symbolism]

Put a comma in the wrong place there.

[debussy symbolism]

Concerning the lack of discussion of Schubert, I think that same may go for composers such as Schumann, as the discussions of his music tend to go into umbrage and may only be seen in a couple of threads.

[burstroman]

Schubert is my favorite composer.  I never rate a pianist until I have heard the person play Schubert or Mozart. Much of Schubert's music is heart-breakingly beautiful.

[kriskicksass]

Schubert is ignored by a lot of pianists because it is layed out terribly for the instrument and takes quite a bit more skill and serenity to pull off than some other music.

[cloches_de_geneve]

Another difficulty is that, at least the last 6 sonatas, are very long, well over 40 minutes. Most sonatas by other composers are significantly shorter (think of Beethoven op. 109 or 110, last just over 15 minutes!!). When playing D959 it was always a 45 minute affair to go through it. That requires an enormous amout of endurance and concentration, first to be really there from beginning to end, and second to organise the quite heterogeneous musical material. And many passages do indeed not fit hands and fingers very well.

But exactly for all these reasons, mastering these sonatas is a real test of pianistic competence and musical intelligence. This was recognized by Schnabel, Kempff, Richter, Arrau, Pollini, Brendel and Schiff -- but where is the next generation of worthy Schubertians? I also think that, speaking emotionally, these sonatas can only be played by pianists with a deep sense of sadness and longing. Think of all the pianists I mentioned, they are all quite "deep", introspective personalities, supporting my view this music is nothing for the lighthearted, overly self-confident extravert.

[opuswriter]

I love the Schubert impromptus for instance, but usually find his sonatas a bit boring. I've played the Sonata in C minor (D.958) and loved it, but generally I feel Schubert repeats too much material throughout a piece. Many of the sonatas are nice and neat, but IMO they lack the passion, creativeness and wide spectrum of ideas (= greatness?) of sonatas by, for instance, composers you mentioned in your original post. 

Schubert is like Mr. Bean (Rowan Atkinson) to me sometimes, I love him for a few minutes but can't stand him after 20 minutes.

But there's no doubt he was a master at beautiful melodies. One of my teachers in piano theory said the musical world was lucky Schubert died young, or else he would have left no room whatsoever for other German composers to fill. 

// Jason Lee