Sharps and Naturals

[barnowl]

In the second measure from the end in the attachment...

The first B of this measure  is naturalized (if this is a legitimate term?), so I assume
the second B - a half note - is like wise naturalized, correct?

Now say in another piece of a different genre written in G major, an A in the treble clef
is sharped at the very end of of the line. Then, in the next line A appears in the very first measure of the bass Clef, but  with no sharp or  natural indication.

How is this note played, sharped or naturalized?

I'm confused, because I was under the impression that if a note is sharped or flatted - other than in the key signature, of course - the situation persists until a natural mark appears.

If you also want to help me with my terminology, that would be nice, too. E.g., sharped vs sharpened, flatted vs flattened vs flatulented,  naturalized vs I don't know what.

[tac-tics]

Accidentals (Sharps and flats) last the entire measure on the line or space they are on (not the note name). So notes on other clefs and octaves are not affected.

Then again, you can usually tell by playing the piece (usually......) which one makes sense.

[barnowl]

Accidentals (Sharps and flats) last the entire measure on the line or space they are on (not the note name). So notes on other clefs and octaves are not affected.

Then again, you can usually tell by playing the piece (usually......) which one makes sense.

I went to the dictionary and got my answer about the terminology.

Although you know the various usages of sharp and sharped, you might still be a little charmed seing them all in one fell swoop at:

https://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sharped

Same goes for flat and flatted:

https://dictionary.reference.com/browse/flatted

[barnowl]

In my previous post I thanked you for your input, but somehow managed to delete it.

I would never make it as a copy editor.

[barnowl]

But what about natural - naturalize?

Do we say, "Oh, that D flat was naturalized at the start of the measure."

Or...?

It's not in the dictionary.

[annoying_airhead]

'So notes on other clefs and octaves are not affected.'

I thought notes on the other octaves were affected.  It's just that some publishers wish to reinforce the point by putting extra sharps on the other octaves.  I'm quite sure this applies to notes in other clefs, but I'll ask someone else about it.  =)

[jlh]

'So notes on other clefs and octaves are not affected.'

I thought notes on the other octaves were affected.  It's just that some publishers wish to reinforce the point by putting extra sharps on the other octaves.  I'm quite sure this applies to notes in other clefs, but I'll ask someone else about it.  =)

When a note is sharped, flatted or naturalized, it affects ONLY that note in the same register for the duration of the measure or until the accidental marking changes, whichever comes first.  Therefore, other octaves (and clefs as a natural extension of this rule) are not affected unless there is a seperate accidental marking for that note.

[barnowl]

Im not disputing you at all,JLH, but isn't there something like a "courtesy" natural that is sometimes used by some publishers to indicate that the sharpening/flattening of the note in the previous measure no longer applies? (Improper terminolgy but I couldn't tresist.)

I'd swear recently someone used that term right here on Piano Street and in the context we're addressing.

[bartolomeo_]

Yes, and it is in fact called a "courtesy" natural (or sharp or flat as the case may be).

Whether or not it is used is a stylistic choice made by the engraver, and some engravers place parenthesis around the mark while others do not.

It's my view that music should be engraved as unambiguously as possible with the use of extra symbols where necessary to remove any doubt.  So where there is, say, a Bb in one octave, clef, or staff and then a B or Bb appears in another it should be clearly notated as either flat or natural.

[barnowl]

Yes, and it is in fact called a "courtesy" natural (or sharp or flat as the case may be).

Whether or not it is used is a stylistic choice made by the engraver, and some engravers place parenthesis around the mark while others do not.

It's my view that music should be engraved as unambiguously as possible with the use of extra symbols where necessary to remove any doubt.  So where there is, say, a Bb in one octave, clef, or staff and then a B or Bb appears in another it should be clearly notated as either flat or natural.

Amen!

[jlh]

Im not disputing you at all,JLH, but isn't there something like a "courtesy" natural that is sometimes used by some publishers to indicate that the sharpening/flattening of the note in the previous measure no longer applies? (Improper terminolgy but I couldn't tresist.)

I'd swear recently someone used that term right here on Piano Street and in the context we're addressing.

You're right, many publishers do remove any doubt of an accidental's status by putting a courtesy natural or whatever.  However, many times (especially in urtext editions) they aren't there, so you can't always count on them.

[barnowl]

You're right, many publishers do remove any doubt of an accidental's status by putting a courtesy natural or whatever.  However, many times (especially in urtext editions) they aren't there, so you can't always count on them.

Thank you, JLH. Now, if I may, ask...

What are urtext editions? I keep running into that expression and never in a context that is self explanatory. The word "urtext" isn't very pretty, in fact I know some ugly, salacious words that are cuter than urtext. But of course, it has a very nice meaning, and I'm simply ignorant. Could you enlighten me, please? 

 

[barnowl]

Thank you, JLH. Now, if I may, ask...

What are urtext editions? I keep running into that expression and never in a context that is self explanatory. The word "urtext" isn't very pretty, in fact I know some ugly, salacious words that are cuter than urtext. But of course, it has a very nice meaning, and I'm simply ignorant. Could you enlighten me, please? 

Never mind, JLH. I found the definition at...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urtext_edition

...and feel pretty stupid for not having looked before. Poor thing, it's still grotesque. I'll bet all the other musical expressions make fun of it.