Pianists "World Cup"

[thalbergmad]

This would be my team.

                                     Giesking

 Richter                   Lill                            Michelangeli             Rachmaninov

 Horowitz                Ashkenazy              Berman                     Solomon

                                   
                                           Gilels            de Pachman

4-4-2 formation with a creative midfield.

Discuss.

Thal

[nicco]

Rach as goalie obviously, gotta use those big hands

[bflatminor24]

Mine would be:

Alkan                Liszt                   Rachmaninoff

Michelangeli                  Horowitz                 Hamelin                Arrau

Rubinstein              Gould


This team has EVERYTHING....technique, fluidity, interpretation, emotion, flamboyance, and absolutely command over the piano. I dare anyone to find a better 10....

~Max~

[pianistimo]

just for fun, mine would be all female:

idil biret       helene grimaud

angela hewitt               a few of the five browns           the labeque sisters

valentia listitsa             martha argerich               anyway.  it would be a formidable team in looks as well as playing ability.  and a couple would actually have world cup sizes, too.  this is always impressive.  susan

[gilad]

some impressive line ups, great thread, i will not try, i am not qualified yet and this is some serious stuff.

[bflatminor24]

just for fun, mine would be all female:

idil biret       helene grimaud

angela hewitt               a few of the five browns           the labeque sisters

valentia listitsa               hmmm gotta check the list again.   anyway.  it would be a formidable team in looks as well as playing ability.  and a couple would actually have world cup sizes, too.  this is always impressive.  susan

Susan,

Interesting choices...funny how you neglected to pick perhaps the best female pianist, Martha Argerich, even though she does tend to play rather fast. I always enjoyed her recordings because they are exciting and new. I love her Chopin preludes CD (sonata 2, piano concerti 1 and 2, scherzo 2, preludes).

~Max~

[pianistimo]

it was sincerely not intentional. i knew i was leaving someone out and couldn't remember.  but, i've been wanting to hear her for ages.  she played at the kimmel center a while back and i was really mad that i had to do something else that evening.  i will definately try to hear her.  she always seems to get raving reviews.

[bflatminor24]

it was sincerely not intentional. i knew i was leaving someone out and couldn't remember.  but, i've been wanting to hear her for ages.  she played at the kimmel center a while back and i was really mad that i had to do something else that evening.  i will definately try to hear her.  she always seems to get raving reviews.

Yeah you "definitely" should...she's really exciting to watch.

Out of innocuous curiosity, why do you have a quote about lines being sexy as your signature? And who is George Balanchine?

~Max~

[pianistimo]

perhaps i should start a new thread, but george balachine was a choreographer and understander of what sexy means.  i think in life, you have to have a philosophy.  mine is clean lines.  to me, with piano, this would signify something like watching a kite fly around.  you have dips and swirls and updrafts and downdrafts - but the basic flying is there unless u have an accident.  that is not sexy.  i think accidents stunt sexiness.  overall - the sexiness lies in the ability to carry this line to the end.  but, if the worst case scenario happens - if you can make it look like a small accident and not a large one - it is much to your favor.

despite calling pianists geeks - they are really among the most sexy people out there besides ballet choreographers.  what we are doing is orchestrating musical affairs.  helping people enjoy being spontaneous.  now, one thing i dont' understand is why so many musicians are fairly stiff dancers - but that's another thread, too.  i once was at a workshop for pianists where we had to express our feelings for certain piano rep by physical actions.  that was hilarious.  we had to pass the feeling to the next person - and they'd take it from there.  one thing i learned is that physical movement IS really key to playing a line.  i mean, you don't have to move your body so much - but you are moving a line.  you are making it dynamic.

i can't stop writing about this tonight - because A) i am again insomniac right now B) i like to know why certain people have this 'tango beat' inside them C) why my teacher can play without having accidents consistently.  now, about 'B' - i think if you watch a flamenco dancer you will see the importance of building upon intensity.  intensity, line, dynamics - they all seem to lead to one great orgasm of music.  when you can keep an audience from yawning - that's when u have the sensuality or the beauty of the line going in your favor.  it's like ur starting from a place like a ribbon dancer - who lightly brings up the ribbon and starts it's movement.  then, it's almost like the ribbon takes off and does what the wind has it do.  then, it's brought to land again.  you don't want to fight the wind.  you try to find the path of least resistance and the quickest and simplest manner of getting things in the air.

also, it's similar, to me - of a chef.  you want to cook 5 things.  they all have to be completed at the same time - but start cooking each thing at staggered times.  this is also sexy.   especially if the food tastes good.  this is the thrill of getting five pieces ready for performance and all about the same level of quality of readiness.  i didn't realize until the last time i tried it what a real feat that is.  i mean - if your going to be a sexy pianist - you don't just worry about what you are wearing to your recital.  you dress the piano.  you make it sound like you're tangoing with it.

[ahinton]

now, one thing i dont' understand is why so many musicians are fairly stiff dancers - but that's another thread, too.  i once was at a workshop for pianists where we had to express our feelings for certain piano rep by physical actions.  that was hilarious.  we had to pass the feeling to the next person - and they'd take it from there.  one thing i learned is that physical movement IS really key to playing a line.  i mean, you don't have to move your body so much - but you are moving a line.  you are making it dynamic.

Why don't you understand that? I cannot imagine why it would necessarily follow that they would never be so - or that they would be generally expected not to be so. The two things are entirely different. The pianist (ideally) moves as few muscles as possible in order to achieve the desired result, whereas the dancer has to bring any and all the muscles to bear on the matter in hand. The pianist is using muscles to enable the recreation of music in performance at an instrument, whereas the dancer's performance is in the movements rather than the sounds.

I don't know what Angela Hewitt would think about this, having once been a dancer and now being a pianist, but in the absence of any input on the subject from her, I would continue to regard the two disciplines as entirely different from one another.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

good point.  ur right.  you try to move as few muscles and make as few unnecessary movements as possible at the piano.  and, yet - to be really musical - you almost have to see the line.  to make it more 'vivid' in the imagination.  maybe workshops like this are not as silly as they seem.

[ahinton]

good point.  ur right.  you try to move as few muscles and make as few unnecessary movements as possible at the piano.  and, yet - to be really musical - you almost have to see the line.  to make it more 'vivid' in the imagination.  maybe workshops like this are not as silly as they seem.

Well, yes, of course, but this is surely a mental rather than a physical exercise. Frankly, I couldn't imagine how to keep a straight face in a workshop such as that which you describe! Maybe it's just as well that I'm not a pianist...

Best,

Alistair

[bflatminor24]

Susan,

After reading your post, I'm still not quite sure what you mean by "lines being sexy." Perhaps you could elucidate further, keeping dancing and piano as separate examples? Since I am not a dancer, nor do I understand dancing, I have a hard time visualizing what you mean. From what I could understand, I interpreted your idea to mean this:

A piano performance, in order to maintain it's 'sexiness,' so to speak, must be fluid and continuous, without interruption or "accident" (as you put it). The music must flow and keep the audience interested, and convey beauty from spontaneity.

I'm not sure if that is correct but it's the message I got. Care to explain further?

Also, what does dance have to do with piano from a physical standpoint? Sure, anyone can argue that art is expression and thus any form of art shares this virtue in common. But beyond that, wherein lies similarity? I sure can't find any...

~Max~

[pianistimo]

max - you do ask pertinent questions and stay on track.  this is something that i strive to do, but never (to the best of my ability) can. 

with piano - a pianist (after having practiced the notes, etc) has to start deciding what exactly he/she wants to convey to an audience.  many pianists want to convey technique.  many want to convey the fact they can make large sounds.  some are proud of their baroquish sounds (getting soft harpsichord effects).  but, my philosophy not in the sound per se - although i like to hear things sound orchestrated - but in the 'flow.'  i am more interested in the flow than anything.  it is like electricity, to me.

a split second of waiting too long at a certain section - and u've made the piece sound 'choppy.'  not giving another section quite enough rubato or pause - might make it sound rushed.  i think what i am talking about is kinetic energy.  now that i think about it - line and kinetics is what i am talking about.  i think pianists SHOULD fly kites,  SHOULD dance, SHOULD do a little ribbon flitting, SHOULD play some percussion, and maybe even go out for an afternoon and experiment with kinetics.  the natural speeding and slowing of things.

in augmentation of this idea of line - is a thought about half-lifes.  i was told by one prof. that if you have a note that is being held (as contrasted to shorter notes in the piece) - then you should play that note a little bit louder because more vibrations are needed to carry it forward so that it will still sound to the end of the period of time you are holding it.  on the other hand - shorter/faster notes can be played softer since they have a cumulative effect and will sound louder because of how many there are in quick succession.  i guess this ties in with line - because you don't want to lose a line due to a note being lost somewhere in the recesses of the piano - and not to the audience.   



 

[Tash]

Yeah you "definitely" should...she's really exciting to watch.

Out of innocuous curiosity, why do you have a quote about lines being sexy as your signature? And who is George Balanchine?

~Max~

wow for the first second there i was like how on earth can you not know who george balanchine is, and then i remembered that the only reason i know that is cos my sister's a ballerina thus i've been indoctrinated with all things dance-related. but he's like the father of american ballet, he's re-done like 50 million ballets and choreographed another 50 million. had a lot to do with stravinsky, in fact i own an entire book called 'stravinsky and balanchine'- he choreographed Apollo, Agon and the violin concerto i think.

but there is a reason as to why most musicians are crap dancers- it's how you get conductors- if you can't dance be a conductor, it practically is retarded dancing if you get into it enough.

[bflatminor24]

I'm not gonna lie...the first time I read that quote, I thought George Balanchine was some character from the movie "Blow" or something, and that he was talking about lines of cocaine...now I can sit back and bask in my ignorance. Lol.

I was at a party the other night, and I called up a friend to ask if he wanted to come. His first response was, "are there lines?" and he was talking about cocaine. Perhaps that's what got me. Hahaha. Wow.

~Max~

Susan will kill me for this.

[Tash]

LOL i totally didn't know that, i'm so naive hahaha

[Motrax]

Back on topic now... 

                                                 Schnabel

                 Rachmaninoff             Ohlssohn         Richter

              Michelangeli        Argerich       Bronfmann        Ashkenazy

                           Horowitz          Hamelin           Pogorelich

Schnabel is about the same size as a regulation soccer goal  . The three defenders are all monstrous in their own ways. The middle players are good at just about anything. Horowitz is great when he's on top of his game, Pogorelich is impossible to predict, and Hamelin just plain never misses.

[pianistimo]

motrax,  i think u have the winningest team.  u just blew us all away.

to max and tash,  u are the funniest.  conductors are interesting to watch, though.  the idea of 'line' comes in there, too - because it is exactly their perception of what should happen to the line that keeps it going.  cocaine?  hmm.  that might be what keeps some musicians going.  for me, it is exercise.  not a small amount.  not a moderate amount.  a sort of almost overexertion that leads to a day of euphoria.  the thing is - is that u have to keep exercising a lot or u'll overtax ur heart on the days ur trying to 'catch up' on the days u missed.

anyway - for me, exercise keeps the energy going.  it's healthier - i think.  never tried cocaine and don't want to.  sorry to sound preachy.  i thinkas with athletics and things that take a lot of concentration - u ahve to find the natural brain chemicals that most help u.  that way - ur not out a lot of money - and ur not frying ur brain. 

for me, about an hour into a ride - i actually feel a difference in my brain chemicals.  it's very wierd and hard to explain to someone else.  for one thing, u get a rush of oxygen finally going throughout ur system.  it makes u feel more alert.  sometimes we don't realize how 'dull' our senses or brains are.  it can actually be from a build-up of toxins in our system. 

don't u think diet matters, too?  i mean just experiment.  try eating lots of sugar for a month.  then, the next month no sugar at all.  no donuts.  no ice cream.  no sugar cereal.  no soda.  just really dark greens.  very little or no meat.  natural juice.  see how u feel.  it's night and day.  i started just not bothering cooking the greens either - and just would stuff extra into sandwiches.  mostly a lettuce sandwich.  also, i started drinking milk again (for better or worse) and lots of yogurt.  mostly plain yogurt with a little fruit or added flavored yogurt and nuts. 

[bflatminor24]

motrax,  i think u have the winningest team.  u just blew us all away.

to max and tash,  u are the funniest.  conductors are interesting to watch, though.  the idea of 'line' comes in there, too - because it is exactly their perception of what should happen to the line that keeps it going.  cocaine?  hmm.  that might be what keeps some musicians going.  for me, it is exercise.  not a small amount.  not a moderate amount.  a sort of almost overexertion that leads to a day of euphoria.  the thing is - is that u have to keep exercising a lot or u'll overtax ur heart on the days ur trying to 'catch up' on the days u missed.

anyway - for me, exercise keeps the energy going.  it's healthier - i think.  never tried cocaine and don't want to.  sorry to sound preachy.  i thinkas with athletics and things that take a lot of concentration - u ahve to find the natural brain chemicals that most help u.  that way - ur not out a lot of money - and ur not frying ur brain. 

for me, about an hour into a ride - i actually feel a difference in my brain chemicals.  it's very wierd and hard to explain to someone else.  for one thing, u get a rush of oxygen finally going throughout ur system.  it makes u feel more alert.  sometimes we don't realize how 'dull' our senses or brains are.  it can actually be from a build-up of toxins in our system. 

don't u think diet matters, too?  i mean just experiment.  try eating lots of sugar for a month.  then, the next month no sugar at all.  no donuts.  no ice cream.  no sugar cereal.  no soda.  just really dark greens.  very little or no meat.  natural juice.  see how u feel.  it's night and day.  i started just not bothering cooking the greens either - and just would stuff extra into sandwiches.  mostly a lettuce sandwich.  also, i started drinking milk again (for better or worse) and lots of yogurt.  mostly plain yogurt with a little fruit or added flavored yogurt and nuts. 

Gross...do you realize the ramifications of that kind of diet? Your body MUST metabolize sugar properly to help your red blood cells carry oxygen. Not eating sugar for a month? Do you want diabetes? You need sugar.

And little or no meat? Meat is one of the healthiest diets you can have, provided it is lean and organic. The copious amounts of fiber, protein and vitamins you get from meat is paramount.

The best diet is a balanced diet. This sounds cliche, but it's true. Don't get any crazy ideas into your heads about being spiritual and changing your diet dramatically. Limit intake of processed foods, if anything, which I would assume to be more of a spiritual change ANYWAY.

And also, yogurt, fruit and nuts have tons of sugar in them. And do you realize you are probably eating lettuce with ZERO nutrition? Did you also realize some vegetables, like eggplant, have almost no nutrition?

Why I started this rant about diet I don't know, but it scares me everytime I read some cooky post about changing eating habbits like that. That's how this whole ridiculous cultural fad of "Atkins" diet got started. What a nut job...not eating any carbs, but eating as much fat as you want? What, are you f.ucking stupid? Have fun dying of a heart attack from those saturated fats clogging your arteries, and have fun not having enough carbohydrates to process and metabolize as sugar for your bloodstream. Crazy.

~Max~

[pianistimo]

i used to be able to eat everything i saw - and i did - without gaining a pound or feeling any different.  so , my mom seemed crazy for a while.  she had always fought with hypoglycemia and so when we were growing up she never let us have candy and soda.  of course, when i visited grandma - that's all i wanted.  but, generally as i got older - i appreciated her efforts.

do u see hyper kids all around.  what do u think causes that?  soda.  of course, i can't  preach because the first thing my daughter wanted this morning was a pepsi.  i dont' buy it.  my husband does.

but, i'm telling u - the reason kids have diabetes and weight problems today isn't because they don't eat carbohydrates  but that they don't eat the right amount of carbohydrates.  they over-sugar themselves.

i think moderation is key.  that's what ur post says to me. that people shouldn't overeat anything. 

i don't want to die eating a donut.  i would feel too much like marge simpson (tho homer would more likely be the one to choke). 

[ahinton]

Gross...do you realize the ramifications of that kind of diet? Your body MUST metabolize sugar properly to help your red blood cells carry oxygen. Not eating sugar for a month? Do you want diabetes? You need sugar.

And little or no meat? Meat is one of the healthiest diets you can have, provided it is lean and organic. The copious amounts of fiber, protein and vitamins you get from meat is paramount.

The best diet is a balanced diet. This sounds cliche, but it's true. Don't get any crazy ideas into your heads about being spiritual and changing your diet dramatically. Limit intake of processed foods, if anything, which I would assume to be more of a spiritual change ANYWAY.

And also, yogurt, fruit and nuts have tons of sugar in them. And do you realize you are probably eating lettuce with ZERO nutrition? Did you also realize some vegetables, like eggplant, have almost no nutrition?

Why I started this rant about diet I don't know, but it scares me everytime I read some cooky post about changing eating habbits like that. That's how this whole ridiculous cultural fad of "Atkins" diet got started. What a nut job...not eating any carbs, but eating as much fat as you want? What, are you f.ucking stupid? Have fun dying of a heart attack from those saturated fats clogging your arteries, and have fun not having enough carbohydrates to process and metabolize as sugar for your bloodstream. Crazy.

~Max~

Hey - calm down a bit! That said (or rather urged), you make a lot of sense here. Whilst it's perfectly possible for some (though not all) people to live healthily on a vegetarian diet (provided that the diet is well balanced and sensibly chosen and provided that the vegetarian has no pre-existing medical conditions that might make this unduly risky), much meat and fish is indeed healthy for most of us, just as eating meat every day is probably not the healthiest thing to do. I agree that any meat consumed should be carefully reared organic produce and that vegatables and fruit should be consumed as fresh as possible; the problem with the latter is that the nutritional content of almost all fruit and vegetables begins to deteriorate from the moment they are picked. Majoring on eating locally produced food to season (when possible), once thought by some to be a faddish pursuit, does at least ensure that foods are consumed when at their best. And NEVER go on ANY diet other than under the qualified medical advice and recommendations of a doctor and/or clinical nutritionist; what suits one person will not necessarily suit another. While you're about it, don't forget red wine in moderation, too!

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

yes. italians are supposed to generally live longer for drinking red wine.  perhaps that would be a minimal change as compared to changing everything else.  well, there u go max. 

but, don't forget.  italians also don't consume butter like we do.  they use olive oil.  perhaps that is another secret.

don't forget societies that live totally off sex.  the french eat horrible diets and live longer this way.

[thalbergmad]

yes. italians are supposed to generally live longer for drinking red wine

They counterbalance that by smoking 150 roll ups per day.

Thal

[Tash]

i used to be able to eat everything i saw - and i did - without gaining a pound or feeling any different. so , my mom seemed crazy for a while. she had always fought with hypoglycemia and so when we were growing up she never let us have candy and soda. of course, when i visited grandma - that's all i wanted. but, generally as i got older - i appreciated her efforts.

do u see hyper kids all around. what do u think causes that? soda. of course, i can't preach because the first thing my daughter wanted this morning was a pepsi. i dont' buy it. my husband does.

but, i'm telling u - the reason kids have diabetes and weight problems today isn't because they don't eat carbohydrates but that they don't eat the right amount of carbohydrates. they over-sugar themselves.

i think moderation is key. that's what ur post says to me. not that people should overeat anything.

i don't want to die eating a donut. i would feel too much like marge simpson (tho homer would more likely be the one to choke).

i totally agree with that- my kids are not going to be brought up on food full of sugar, added flavours or preservatives, it's a recipe for disaster and mental children. honestly, do parents not realise that that is the reason why half the time they cannot control their kids? it was funny, while i was doing my teaching prac, coco-pops was mentioned in show-and-tell (the 2 brattiest kids were talking about a toy they got in the packet) and the teacher was like don't tell me you eat coco-pops and they're like yeah! and she's like OMG that is why you are mental i need to speak to your parents!

but anyway, we're getting distracted from the soccer. i'm watching in the crowd enthusiastically cheering (i know bugger all about soccer to make up my own team) wooooo

[jas]

do u see hyper kids all around.  what do u think causes that?  soda.  of course, i can't  preach because the first thing my daughter wanted this morning was a pepsi.  i dont' buy it.  my husband does.

but, i'm telling u - the reason kids have diabetes and weight problems today isn't because they don't eat carbohydrates  but that they don't eat the right amount of carbohydrates.  they over-sugar themselves.

Yep, true. Apparently the kids in the UK are the second fattest in Europe, or something. But we have Gillian McKeith jumping out at people from behind trees and telling them off on national TV for what they're eating. I think people are too scared to eat crap now.

Erm, anyway. Back on topic, I know nowt about football so am not going to comment. But Motrax's team looks pretty good.

Jas

[ahinton]

the french eat horrible diets

Pardonnez-moi? - which French eat what horrible diets?

Best,

Alistair