For someone who wants God off the pf, you sure do like to talk about Him alot (btw, love the reference to God as "her." I had a friend that used to do that all the time to see if he could get under my skin. It makes me smile).
Anyhoo, please quote the verse that says we cannot know God, cause I'm interested, and too lazy to look it up
. I am not a Bible theologen either, but I have been to Bible school, and know enough that if you research the Greek and Hebrew (original languages of the Bible) origins sometimes supplied in an actual lexigon in the back on some Bibles, you will see that "know" in those languages is roughly translated to English and can have a multitude of levels of meaning. Just like our word "love" can. I love my dad, I love pizza. It's very similar with their words, and the English language really doesn't do them justice. (Note: just read more of your post, and see you've noticed this too).
Believing in God comes first. You cannot love someone you do not believe in - trully love them that is. You need to know them, like you said. No, one cannot help "crushing" on someone, which is a chemical hormone thing, but "love" real love - I've been married to you for 40 years type love (for sake of example) - is a choice.
Music and God were used in my example because they happen to be my two passions in life, not because I was hinting at some intrinsic combination of the two. Edit: Though God is part of EVERYTHING in my life. You'll see why later.
"The bible does claim that humans cannot know god. I mean know him in a personal way. Humans are sinfun and god is holy. And that is also why christianity has christ. It is in the new testament, Romans. I can imagine the pope would claim that you are a heretic if you claim that you do not need christ to get closer to god". You typed this, and I agree completely that without Christ, we could not know God. You've hit the nail on the head. If you want me to explain how exactly that works, then that would be a long post indeed! (Can do, if you want). Edit: I ended up doing this anyway at the end of the post.
The God of the Old Testament and the New are One in the same. The difference lies in that the old testament was before Christ came to earth which is why back then, they couldn't "know" God like we can now. But God Himself has not changed, He is still loving. Even in the old testament He was. Why is it that when God disciplines us we see it as His being mean? Since you like to quote the Bible, "A father disciplines the son he loves." Edit: For further understanding of why He did the things He did, then this refers to my comment about reading the whole thing later on.
"I understand what 'true love' is, apart from obsessive 'falling in love' behavior. (English uses the same word for both, a major flaw). I do not recognise any of the properties the bible atributes to god in love or the other way around." I agree with you on that major flaw. The Greek actually has 3 different levels of love for our translation of the word in the Bible. One question - not an accusation, but just a question because I come across this alot. Have you read the ENTIRE bible at least once? Please say yes because I hate trying to "battle" over verses and facts when one hasn't even read it all to understand how it links together (some Christians haven't even done this and that makes me crazy because then they try to "preach" about something they haven't even fully read!) If you have and still do not see how the Bible attributes God as love, then let me know.
"You say that all love comes from god. Already, this is a bit different. I wonder why believers are so inaccurate when they describe and ascribe things to their 'best friend'. But does that also mean that someone who doesn't believe cannot 'channel love'? Since all love comes from god how can I access gods resevoir of love? How does this work?"
Okay, this is the thing I refered to before that I said I could explain if you wanted and since you asked I will attempt, but it's very much like trying to explain what the earth looks like from space to one who hasn't been there or seen the pictures, so bear with me because it will sound as crazy to you as telling our ancestors that the world was not flat (before it was discovered that it actually is round I mean). Or like someone trying to explain to me what galloping on a horse is like - something I've always wanted to try. I can see them do it, but I won't really know what it's like till I try myself.
You already hit the nail on the head when you said we are sinful, God is not, thus we cannot know Him without Christ whose blood was the "ransom" or "payment" for our debt of sin should we choose to accept that gift, that is. When one does accept that gift, it is not merely "fire insurance" as sadly alot of "Christians" believe it is. It is not meant to stop there and if it does I would question as to whether they had really accepted that gift then. It is so much more. There is a verse in the Bible where Christ says that when we accept this gift we will "be once as I (Christ) and the Father are One." This is where the exciting part is. (I'm sorry, it's just easier if I use some Christian "lingo" to explain this, so try to follow through the jargon and let me know if some terms are unfamiliar). When we accept that gift we exchange who we are (sinful) for Christ's gift of righteousness. When God looks at us then, He no longer sees our "missing the mark" (literal translation of the Greek word sin), but instead sees Christ's righteousness in us instead. Christ takes our spirit of sinfulness and replaces it with His Spirit of righteousness. This is the part that is almost impossible to explain unless you've "been there." You are NOT the same person. I can testify to this. I don't not watch some of the trash on t.v. that I used to because it's the "Christian thing to do." I actually don't WANT to watch it anymore-that's a really wierd feeling let me tell you). I actually think differently than I used to. It's like seeing the world from space for the first time like they did on that shuttle so many years ago. So how do I know what God is like? He's given me part of His Spirit, part of His heart (the "becoming one" bit). Do I know Him fully? No, do I know Him more and more each day? Yes. It's not an overnight kaboom! It's a growing process, a discovering process. Not a "lifestyle" but a "lifechange." I am NOT who I used to be. I don't need to pretend to be "nicer" or pretend to actually love, yes, love my enemies. I actually do! (That's wierd too!) How can I explain that!? It's something that needs to be experienced. I could give you accounts of miracles (yes, the real things) in my own family even, as "proof" but the REAL miracle is what happens INSIDE when you become a Christian. So, yes, you're right. Loving God is different than loving people. It's on a whole different level of playing field. But it's real, and intense, and thus seeps out in our conversations. I agree with you thank alot of Christians just talk the talk, and unless they walk the walk, then even I find their "talk" annoying. But when you find a real Christian who has trully accepted Christ's gift and thus the "change" then their walk and their talk become part of who they are and speaking of God becomes a natural part of them like my Canadian accent is a part of me. It's just who I am.
Now to sum this up, Please, PLEASE do not misinterpret me. Look at my signature. Christians are not "better" or some sort of "superior" person. Were the people who believed the world was round "better" than those who thought it was flat? Is my friend who has galloped on a horse better than me who hasn't? No! That's ridiculous. And I agree some Christians need to get off their high horse - pun unintended. We've just been forgiven because we've chosen to be, and consequently when one truly chooses that different life, they really can't help but change!
Pardon my crude horse/globe examples. I know that we are talking about more important issues like salvation, truth, lives, ect, but they help a wee bit I think. Anyway..
Since you asked
Topic: why I support getting god out of PF