Bad Korea, Bad

[rimv2]

https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5149512.stm 

[mephisto]

usa has also tested nuclear weapons. So why is nobody saying anything against that

I am personally against all nuclear weapons, so I am also against this.

[thalbergmad]

usa has also tested nuclear weapons. So why is nobody saying anything against that

I am personally against all nuclear weapons, so I am also against this.

I guess the USA are less likely to use them.

I am against all nuclear weapons as well.

[lisztisforkids]

Korea or Iran... Which one is going to do something imprudent first?

[prometheus]

Why would the US be less likely to use them? They have already admitted to creating plans to use tactical nuclear weapons in a strike on Iran. And they are the only country that have used them before.

If N-Korea uses an nuclear weapon then China, Russia, US, and Maybe also India, Pakistan and Israel are ready to retaliate depending on what exactly happens. N-Korea is sure to be destroyed.

Now who will destroy the US when they throw a nuke on Pyong Yang? I am not saying that they would do this but surely it is more likely the US can get away with it.


As for N-Korea having a possible minor nuke and testing middle range missiles; we all have a tv and a news paper. We don't need to read it at pianoforum. So it is no use to open such a topic unless you give your opinion or contribute otherwise.

What to do about it? It was a mistake made in the past. The world community was not dedicated enough to non-proliferation. elBaradei commented on this a while ago. He said that unless the world community makes a 90 degree turn within 10 or 30 years there could be up to 30 or even more countries with nuclear weapons. The knowledge on how to make an atomic bomb is almost part of the public domain. So if it continues like it does now then in 30 years everyone will be able to download all the data needed for free just like we download Britney Spears and Eminem today.

Owning nuclear weapons just pays off in the international political arena. As long as this is true and as long as there are countries that already have them there will be other countries trying to gian them as well.

[Kassaa]

Korea or Iran... Which one is going to do something imprudent first?

the US.

[rimv2]

usa has also tested nuclear weapons. So why is nobody saying anything against that

I am personally against all nuclear weapons, so I am also against this.

Why turn this into an America bash topic.


This was just stupid and reckless. One malfunctioned. It could have done serious damage.


Everyone looks to America as an excuse.


Everyone wants to follow instead of setting the right example.

[BoliverAllmon]

If N-Korea uses an nuclear weapon then China, Russia, US, and Maybe also India, Pakistan and Israel are ready to retaliate depending on what exactly happens. N-Korea is sure to be destroyed.

so is Iran, but that doesn't seem to be stopping them.

[prometheus]

Uuh, pardon me?

[musik_man]

I first saw this on the daily show, but the North Korean missile is called 'Typadong.

Who knew that possible nuclear war could be so funny?'

[mephisto]

Why turn this into an America bash topic.


This was just stupid and reckless. One malfunctioned. It could have done serious damage.


Everyone looks to America as an excuse.


Everyone wants to follow instead of setting the right example.

I just made a statement. Naturally everyones reaction is that USA have done the exact same as N.Corea and evern worse, they have blown an atomic-bomb. So why are they against N.Corea doing the same?

[ada]

Nuclear arms races only tend to "work" under the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) and this is what prevented a major disaster during the Cold War.

They become dangerous, IMO, when there's an imbalance of power. During the Cold War there was a balance of power, but that's changed.

As long as the US remains the dominant global nuclear power there is going to be a reason to be afraid of a new arms race.

Then again, is it in the interests of the US to make a song and dance about Korea in order to deflect attention from the situation in Iraq, which is a constant sap on the President's popularity?

[pianistimo]

typically we don't stage marches and go around shouting 'death to koreans'  or 'death to iraqis.'  in fact, many live here.

i don't disagree with the fact that past wars have been inhumane and ugly.  but, how does a superpower stay that way?  allowing enemies to randomly do whatever they want?  they proclaim themselves an enemy by shouting 'death to americans' and showing that they want to use these missles for a certain purpose.  if ur big brother was around - would u take a pounding from a neighbor kid when u were little - or would u call for ur big brother.  that's the way it is with many countries who have asked for help from the USA to keep from allowing atrocities.

many people forget that north korea was one of the most inhumane regimes ever to exist.  on the other hand - there are many many beautiful korean people (one of which is a dentist - that my husband went to).  he would ask for prayers for his people to someday unite peacefully because he had relatives on the other side of the border that were starving and not able to live as the freer side.  they were putting ALL their money into the military and forgetting their OWN people.

[pianistimo]

human rights groups have not been allowed in - and rarely a person excaped the 'death camps.'  one woman survived a forced abortion in the camp and escaped and lived to tell about it.  others were exterminated and could not tell about it. 

korea calls itself - the democratic republic of korea - but there is little democratic about it.  the government isn't even marxist/socialist in the 'book' sense - but it is a government based on a 'man' and his progeny.  there's a site that tells about him and his son - and this site is actually korean and explains about the current kim.

www.korea-dpr.com   and www.korea-dpr.com/library/103.pdf

using the word comrade, frequently, they stir visions of collective freedom - whilst stealing from people right and left to make themselves a more formidable foe.  it is a nation which indoctrinates people on a very very narrow viewpoint. at least in america - if people have different views, they are left alone.  but, if u dare to disagree in korea, i don't think there's much tolerance.

[prometheus]

It still is, by far, the most inhuman regime on the planet.


But you argue that the US is justified in his actions because N-Korea is the enemy. But why is it the enemy? It is said that 80% of all industrial and public facilities were destroyed, that 3/4 of all government buildings were destroyed and that half of all the houses were destroyed. It is said that 2.5 millions died. Pyongyang has been bombed to dust. It is said that at the end of the war there was no building left standing. The damage has been estimated to be far worse that the damage of Hiroshima. The country of N-Korea was utterly destroyed.

You know that children are easily brainwashed. With all this destruction one does not even have to rewrite history to turn these people into fanatic haters.

So the reason that americans don't do this is because NY wasn't bombed until no building was left standing. The N-Koreans didn't even throw a single bomb on the US.

Same thing happened in WWII, in the war against Vietnam, etc. And then 9/11 happened. Considering history this was such a shock. Only a few buildings were destroyed and this was the 'worst event in history'. Imagine 9/11 happening every month for several years. Now you may say that their leaders made the mistake. But these people will not care. You don't think, and nether do I, that it is justified to bomb your office building tomorrow because Bush accidentally used the word 'crusade'. Let alone talk about the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

[prometheus]

I have been told that Kim Jong-il is in the 'dove'-camp, concerning the case of nuclear weapons and Japan/S-Korea/US, but that he doesn't have the absolute power his father had.

[pianistimo]

i agree that using the word 'crusade' wasn't exactly a good choice of words.  but, bush is giving them back a lot of their own medicine.  'jihad' isn't any different.

the world would be a lot different place if enemies were allowed to proliferate (and their weapons).  we would basically all be communist.  in this country - we feel it is a God given right to be free (or at least some of us do).  an 'inalienable' right. 

but, that doesn't make inhumane acts justified.  i was born in 1961 and too young to appreciate what was going on in vietnam when it was happening.  the only way you can influence history is to be 18+ and have some voting rights and possibly refuse to join the military if u have religious viewpoints on it.  but, you know - i am extremely grateful to our military personell because they do a job nobody wants to do.  our country wouldn't be free without them.  they all need more back up, better equipment, and more precision.  i don't think hitting civilians is a very good thing.  and, i feel badly for anyone who is raped or children murdered.  this is just wrong.  but, in war - everything gets messed up.  people's minds get messed up on both sides.

as i see it - even if a person is conscripted into the army - u become aware of the reality that no war is going to solve all problems.  in fact, many who come back are more humble and compassionate towards those of the other nations they have gone to.  they realize that we need to be fairer - and share blessings with others.  there ARE americans who do this - and we don't have a lot of publicity for the good things that we do.  only the bad.  but, we are not perfect and never will be.  this is where God comes in - but that's not something everyone believes.

[pianistimo]

he is a military leader and often photographed with his head sticking out the top of the car so people can 'hail' him.  this is not 'dove' behavior.  he considers the military and the government so intertwined that who can know what his next move will be.

[prometheus]

My point was that the people will not care if their leaders were right or wrong. If they suffered greatly at the hand of the enemy they will blame the enemy and when propaganda is added you are creating fanatics.

Bush was standing on the USS Abraham Lincoln in a navy flight suit under a 'Mission Accomplished'-banner. This is all show. Every nation has this in some form or another.

Of course it isn't dove behavoir. But does that matter?

Apparantly the military and the government aren't totally intertwined. Apperrently there are two camps. Not very strange since there will always be disagreement. And apperently Jong-il is on the side of the technocrats. Not that strange since he has no military background. It is just that he is the heir. You mention the people 'worshipping' him. That's why he is still in power. He is the symbolic head of state. The british queen doesn't rule the United Kingdom either. You cannot know as a total outsider how the balance of power in N-Korea actually is. I mean, not even the major intelligence agancies will know exactly.

[pianistimo]

when they shoot off six missles in one night - you know their having a 'dove' party.

[prometheus]

I am talking about the internal power structures and divisions.

[musik_man]

Apparantly the military and the government aren't totally intertwined. Apperrently there are two camps. Not very strange since there will always be disagreement. And apperently Jong-il is on the side of the technocrats. Not that strange since he has no military background. It is just that he is the heir. You mention the people 'worshipping' him. That's why he is still in power. He is the symbolic head of state. The british queen doesn't rule the United Kingdom either. You cannot know as a total outsider how the balance of power in N-Korea actually is. I mean, not even the major intelligence agancies will know exactly.

I believe you meant 'hair.'

[prometheus]

I don't think I get that joke.

[musik_man]

I don't think I get that joke.

Look at a picture of Kim Jong Il (not that you'll lose much by not getting it.  It's not much of a joke.)

[yooniefied]

Look at a picture of Kim Jong Il (not that you'll lose much by not getting it.  It's not much of a joke.)

Disrespectful.

You never know who you will run into on the internet. In this case, you've run into a Korean who is offended by your ignorance.

[prometheus]

Disrespectfull?

Haha, his father declared himself as a god. He and his son are the clowns of the world outside of N-Korea, where most people are being brainwashed.

[kony]

whereas one can correctly say that all Anti-North-Koreans are brainwashed as well. Unless you have been there yourself, experienced it for a lengthy amount of time, or have sufficient Primary sources to justify your opinions, all you are doing is falling under Western propaganda, which is conveniently shielded by excuses such as "democracy" and "freedom of speech" and "human rights".

oh by the way, i think the regime in North Korea is a terrible thing and the people there most likely do suffer. Perhaps they're not aware of their "sufferings" either, because they have a very limited view of the world. only, the "truths" presented to us in things like newspapers are one-sided sources that almost always do not reveal the whole truths.

a good example of this is the 2001 Chinese-American plane collision incident. compare the article from CNN https://edition.cnn.com/2001/US/04/01/us.china.diplomacy/

to the BBC https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1260290.stm

and the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_the_two_sorries

notice how someone reading the CNN is "hidden" from the truth, even though they didn't "lie".

[pianistimo]

those spy planes are very large and as the article said - very unlikely to suddenly veer to the left.  also, the chinese planes were hemming them in and attempting to change their course.

not knowing much about the incident except what is on the news - the curiosity of how the chinese would treat the plane and the spies was large.  i believe the plane stayed in their hands but the pilots were allowed home.  was that correct? 

if so, they lost one pilot for a load of spy plane info.  as one article put it, if that plane was flying UNDER the spy plane - he might have actually sacrificed himself to put the plane out (to attempt to make it land in chinese space) by letting himself be hit as the plane banked.  or, he might have thought he could also land after being hit.  obviously, it would look like it wasn't his fault.

no one knows except the pilots, probably.  i've taken a look at some older spy planes and they ARE huge.  long flat wings.  you can't exactly say - they suddenly banked left.  it would be like an eagle vs a hawk.  they are both great flyers but one can maneuver better in the air.

[prometheus]

All major US media are part of global corporations with a diverse number of economic interests all over the spectrum.

Also, they sell watchers to advertisers so they will also present that which the viewer wants to see.

You don't expect a company which such interests and which such a large amount of money involved to be able to present news of a high journalistic level.

The american media has an unusual kind of self-censorship since the government has very little power to force anything on the media. Some things just don't get reported, on a structural basis, in the US media while it does get reported in the non-US media. You see this a lot then it comes to Israel. This kind of self discipline is very unusual.
And this is not a conspiracy theory because you don't call a company that does everything they can to make as much money as possible a conspiracy. It should be very obvious that the goal of corporation is to make profit.

[pianistimo]

truth always comes out in the end.  they got the better end of the deal.  the entire spy plane.  do you hear that in the news?  the news media can say anything - true or false or inbetween (which is more often the case).  to have bbc at the same time - means they do have checks and balances.  if they are too far left or right - the truth is just there.  exactly what happened.  it is good to know exactly.

as i understand bible prophecy, it's not going to boil down to one nation vs another - but many nations fighting together and separately.  a world war.  no amount of media or lack of media can do anything.  in fact, the media sometimes gets in the way and gets shot.

as i see it...we're headed for catastrophe unless there is a sudden change in how people view world policy and peace.  in that case we might have people saying 'peace, peace' but at what cost?  the bible says at the cost of doing business.  we are told that a 'beast power' or conglomerate of nations will control everything.  worship, calendar, money...and unless a person is part of they system they will not be able to buy or sell. 

orwellian, perhaps - but biblical moreso. 

[pianistimo]

revelation 13 to be exact.  it speaks of a 'beast' power of ten nations (ten horns) similar to the ten toes of daniel's prophecy.  they are the last of the roman empire's great revivals.  when nations come together they are able to do greater things. 

rev. 13:3 'one of the heads, as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed.  and the WHOLE EARTH was amazed and followed after the beast; and they worshipped the dragon (satan in disguise), because he gave his authority to the beast (many nations); and they worshipped the beast, saying, 'who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war against him?'

on show on pbs said that it would be for a period of 7 years - but right here in chapter 13 it says he will 'speak arrogant words and blasphemies; and authority to act for FOURTY-TWO months...'  that's two years.  the third year and half - there will be chaos as i understand it.  first we have relative peace where everyone has to make a choice or make war (said to make war with saints and to persecute christians - much as the old roman empire did) - and then, when the kingdom is relatively at peace satan will show his true colors even more.  he will require all of his followers to 'worship' him.  this will sound ridiculous to people who were not even christian in the first place.  to worship a leader.  but, if you look at history, it's not ridiculous at all.  these people are possessed.  why else would they be looking for worship?  rev. 13:15 'and there was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast might even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image (bow down to) of the beast to be killed.  and he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves (yes - his kingdom will have those), to be given a mark on their right hand or forehead,a nd he provides that no one should be able to buy or sell , excep the one that has the mark, EITHER THE NAME of the Beast or the NUMBER of his name.  usually - in the latin language - a name is identifiable numerically.  many of the popes have had numerical names.  not saying that people should become afraid of the pope - but i think it is highly plausible that when 'worship' is involved - we are talking a combination of the religion and government of the old roman empire - which was ruled by a mystery religion.  there will obvioiusly be someone who wants us to worship him and to obey the group of nations called the 'beast.'  someone who will be identified as already having a certain amount of power with the nations.

[pianistimo]

rev. 14 is more encouraging as it says 'and i saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; and he said with a loud voice, 'Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgement has come; and worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters...(babylon falls - the corrupt government) ...and another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, 'if anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb (this may sound cruel - but it is exactly the way christians have been treated - tortured and killed - as God says whoever lives by the sword dies by the sword).  and, the smoke (they've burned up) of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.' 

'blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!  yes! says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.'

as i read this - it makes me think that we will have to make a choice.  we cannot say - life just happened to me.  we have to make it happen.  we have to say - 'is this of God?  or is this of man?'  if it is of 'man's' government - it will fail in the end.  if it is God's - it will still be around.  korea, america - etc. they'll all be a new kingdom.  one without end.

[pianistimo]

ps   vicarius filii dei = substituting  son  God   - in terms of latin equivalents - the title equals 666.

i won't go any farther because i don't want to obsess or anything.  i think we'll all see truth when it comes.  but, false christianity can look like truth.  take a look here:

www.gospelcenterchurch.org/babylonmysteryreligion.html

for more detail  www.giveshare.org/library/2babylons/index.html

[prometheus]

You posted in the wrong topic. This isn't the Da Vinci Code threat.

[pianistimo]

the bent crucifix (used by the last two popes) would certainly also fit the description of a false religion.  you can't see the details until you read the book that john paul wrote and realize that he was for a one world order.

[musik_man]

Disrespectful.

You never know who you will run into on the internet. In this case, you've run into a Korean who is offended by your ignorance.

I'm sorry, does mocking mass-murderers offend you?

whereas one can correctly say that all Anti-North-Koreans are brainwashed as well. Unless you have been there yourself, experienced it for a lengthy amount of time, or have sufficient Primary sources to justify your opinions, all you are doing is falling under Western propaganda, which is conveniently shielded by excuses such as "democracy" and "freedom of speech" and "human rights".

oh by the way, i think the regime in North Korea is a terrible thing and the people there most likely do suffer. Perhaps they're not aware of their "sufferings" either, because they have a very limited view of the world. only, the "truths" presented to us in things like newspapers are one-sided sources that almost always do not reveal the whole truths.

Unfortunately, I'm one of those who has been brainwashed into believing that people have natural rights.  It's a shame I can't be more enlightened and make excuses for despots.

Quick question, does someone have to have spent years in Dachau or Treblinka to think that Nazi Germany was bad?  Does one have to be arrested in the middle of the night, tortured for months and put on trial for crimes against the people to believe that Soviet Russia was evil?  Does one have to watch ones family starve under agricultural 'reforms' to think that Mao was a ruthless murderer?  The obvious answer for these is no.  Why should North Korea be held to a different standard?  The truth is that no one will ever have perfect imformation on any subject, but that shouldn't be used as a cheap excuse for not having an opinion on important matters.

Prometheus, what model should news organizations take to guarantee objective news?  The only plausible alternative to the free market is government sponsored media.  I hope I don't have to explain what is wrong with that.

[pianistimo]

imo, no leader on earth is exempt from 'big head' syndrome.  as i see it - no one will stand at His coming.  the kings of the earth will bow to Him.  and, yet, if a leader serves God - He may be lifted up and stand before God.  in all the places in the bible - it seems that if one is humble they are always lifted up.  there are many nations that do not know God right now.  the ones that do are supposed to show a 'better way.'  a 'Godly way.'  we have to make sure that we are not torturing and becoming way more immoral than the countries that don't even have God.  despite the torture in korea and in cambodia and china - they have do have a morality.  they are perhaps more obedient to the 'law' of the land - and do not test their individual 'rights' to the point of extinction.  maybe this is a condundrum that is allowed to humble the west.  that we aren't perfect.  nobody is perfect.  we are all under sin.  no nation is the best.  the wisest.  the most beneficent.  we're all dust and we're really nothing.  God is a great equalizer.

when He returns, he will 'smite the nations'  (plural) - so i guess there's really no exception.  rev. 19:15 'and from His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may smite the nations; and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God the Almighty.  and on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.'  no nation will be more powerful or able to rule anymore.  all will be 'under God.'

[freakofnature]

Quick question: Does one have to spent years in Guantanamo without charge, without knowing why one is even there, being tortured by soldiers who think they can play god, to know that modern USA is evil? Does one have to be there when US bombers destroy civilian residential districts killing dozens of innocent people during a war that the president justified by lying to the people of his own country and to the U. N.?

I know this is not an America bashing thread, but if you talk about natural rights one has to mention, that the government of the US seems to think that these natural rights are reserved for Americans...

[pianistimo]

this is exactly why Jesus Christ has to return, imo.  there is no nation that is 'righteous.'  i feel that the nations that have the bible are responsible to carry out it's word.  there is no place in the bible that says 'hate your enemies.'  we are told 'love your enemies...' 'do good to those who hate you.'  'if a man wants you to walk a mile with him - walk two.' 

if we are doing a comparative study of leadership - perhaps we would find that all leaders from time immemorial have taken steps before they prayed.  just made a decision.  but, then, as with bible times - you see if the action was blessed by God or not.  that's why some kings went to prophets before battle (to know if they were going to win - or how to strategize).  when God is for you - noone can be against you.  but the fact that we are sort of stuck in a quagmire of troubles means to me that our entire nation should fast and pray for God to return and help us.  how can the world have peace without God?  the idea of communism or socialism might work in the kingdom of God because we would not be seeking our own things.  we would share equally and yet - have different 'rewards.'  noone will be given any less or more than they have worked for.  this is a combination of democracy and socialism imo, because those that are 'great' are serving those who are 'less.'  and so  - we would equalize ourselves.  leadership is seen today as ruling OVEr people instead of ruling with the people and serving all their needs.

rulership is an interesting subject.  seems that you have to convince people that your government is the best.  the type of ruling that allows freedom and yet maintains law.  if Christ died for us...He is the best example of a ruler that loves His people to the point of dying for them.   

[freakofnature]

and what exactly would that guy 'jesus christ' do to better the world???

[musik_man]

Quick question: Does one have to spent years in Guantanamo without charge, without knowing why one is even there, being tortured by soldiers who think they can play god, to know that modern USA is evil? Does one have to be there when US bombers destroy civilian residential districts killing dozens of innocent people during a war that the president justified by lying to the people of his own country and to the U. N.?

I know this is not an America bashing thread, but if you talk about natural rights one has to mention, that the government of the US seems to think that these natural rights are reserved for Americans...

Someone caught fighting in a war without a uniform has no rights.  In the Battle of the Bulge Germany sent up a battalion of English speaking troops in Allied uniforms to cause havoc.  When they were caught, they were executed to a man.  The rules of civilized warfare exist to reduce collateral damage to civilians.  If one side won't abide by these rules, they won't get the protection of them.

[freakofnature]

Someone caught fighting in a war without a uniform has no rights.  In the Battle of the Bulge Germany sent up a battalion of English speaking troops in Allied uniforms to cause havoc.  When they were caught, they were executed to a man.  The rules of civilized warfare exist to reduce collateral damage to civilians.  If one side won't abide by these rules, they won't get the protection of them.

That's funny, because according to the information out of a lot of non-american newspapers, a lot of the inmates of Guatanamo are innocent. But how are they going to prove their innocence if they are not allowed to have a lawyer and most of them not even get interviewed. They are just hold there without knowing what happens to them... And this in the name of 'god' (claimed by the american president) and 'god's own nation'...

[pianistimo]

i pretty much thought that the nations would be treated equally, but apparrently there are some nations that will get a thrashing from Jesus Christ.  in matthew 25:32 'and all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on his right, and the goats on His left.'  

i take that to mean that those nations that supressed the word of God and did not allow their people to understand the plan of salvation - will be destroyed for lack of knowledge.  and yet, the gospel is preached to the entire world - so individuals CAN come to God - it's just that the presidents, kings, and dictators of certain countries will be held responsible for withholding information from their people.  

the nations that have God's word are supposed to be fair and just.  of all the nations of the world - the most blessed - due to the blessing on Abraham (that he would be the father of many nations and through them the nations of the world blessed).  but, now it has turned to a curse.  there is a curse on us and a curse on our enemies.  there is no justice or peace.  why?  because we are not, as a country relying on God.
we want to remove the 10 commandments from judicial areas - and get rid of 'in God we trust' - and pledge allegiance as 'one nation under God...'

so, God is probably saying 'hands off.'

isaiah 58:6 tells about nations humbling themselves by a day of fasting and prayer.  'is this not the fast that i have chosen, to loosen the bonds of wickedness, to undo the bands of the yoke, and to LET THE OPRESSED GO FREE, and BREAK EVERY YOKE?  is it not to divide your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into the house; when you see the naked, to cover him; and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?  then your light will break out like the dawn, and your recovery will speedily spring forth; and your righteousness will go before you; the glory of the Lord will be your rear guard (protection).  then you will call, and the Lord will answer; you will cry, and He will say, 'Here I Am.'

as i read bible prophecy - a new nation will appear.   one that noone noticed before.  a nation of righteous individuals from all the nations.  isaiah 60:1  ' arise shine; for your light has come (your time to rule), and the glory of the Lord has risen upon you.  for behold, darkness will cover the earth (sin), and deep darkness the peoples; but the Lord will rise upon you, and His glory will appear upon you.  and nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising...whereas you have been forsaken and hated...I will make you an everlasting pride, a joy from generation to generation.  you will suck the milk of nations, and suck the breast of kings (obtain all the kingdoms of the world); then you will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior.'

'violence will not be heard again in your land, nor devastation or destruction within your borders; but you will call your walls salvation, and your gates praise.  no longer will you have the sun for light by day, nor for brightness will the moon give yoiu light; but you will have the Lord for an everlasting light, and your God for your glory.  your sun will set not more, neither will your moon wane; for you will have the Lord for an everlasting light, and the days of your mourning will be finished.  then all your people will be righteous...the smallest one a clan...the least one a mighty nation...I the Lord will hasten it in its time.'

rev. 22:1 'and he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of it's street. and on either side of the river was the TREE OF LIFE, bearing twelve kinds of fruit,yielding it's fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the NATIONS...'

as i see it - adam and eve started the whole mess. they chose the wrong tree.  in the milleneum and beyond - we have a new earth.  first the thousand year reign of Christ and then - the changing of all who have ever lived to a new heavens and new earth.  i don't understand it fully - but what i do understand is that all who ever lived and chose God's way (the way of life) will be with Him forever in peace and joy.

[freakofnature]

BTW, 'civilized warfare' is the most absurd and ridiculous word combination I've ever read...

[freakofnature]

@pianistimo: what a great deal of luck for all the world that god doesn't exist...

[pianistimo]

i totally agree that the guantanamo prisoners should be let go asap.  if we did wrong - we should fix it and not make it worse.  of course, i'm in no place to tell the president what to do - but as i see it - to absolve something God's way is to forgive.

there ARE places in the bible that say something about 'if you go to war - to completely destroy the enemy'  -- but in this situation - they were more merciful at the first.  i think they should complete the idea of mercy and not of hatred.  otherwise, we have no better government than theirs.

in the OT the enemies of israel were allowed to be obliterated.  but, israel was at times obedient to God - so they were not fearful of war that was allowed to be (because the nations around them were constantly picking at them - as with the philistines picking fights).  God allowed david - one individual - to start a battle and kill someone way larger than himself.  then, the israelites finished them off.  why?  because how could they live in peace with some nation continually pestering them. 

terrorism is much like that.  those that seek peace can be constantly pesterd and terrorized to the point of action.  i think it is likely that those who do not believe in God at this point will suddenly change their minds when they see God starting to fight israel's battle.  israel has always been a small nation.  the smallest on the earth it seems.  but, size doesn't matter to God.  when israel wins - the world will know the Lord.  isaiah 52:9-10 ...'He has redeemed jerusalem.  the Lord has bared His Holy arm in the sight of all the nations, that all the ends of the earth may see the salvation of our God.'

[freakofnature]

do you often scare little children with your preaching of the wrath of god???

[musik_man]

That's funny, because according to the information out of a lot of non-american newspapers, a lot of the inmates of Guatanamo are innocent. But how are they going to prove their innocence if they are not allowed to have a lawyer and most of them not even get interviewed. They are just hold there without knowing what happens to them... And this in the name of 'god' (claimed by the american president) and 'god's own nation'...

There are only 500 inmates in Gitmo.  Why would the US stick any but the most guilty in there?  As of now we have detained 50,000 prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan.  I find it unlikely that anyone who isn't very important to Al Qaeda is in there.

BTW the US has released some 70 prisoners from Gitmo, which should prove that they are doing their best not to detain any people unnecessarily.

Also, even if the US's behaviour in Gitmo were wrong, it would still be a far cry from the Gulag or the concentration camps of Nazi Germany.  Not all wrongs are equal.  And showing that the US is imperfect(which of course it is), does not show that it is comparable to North Korea, Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia.  The idea that there is any similarity between the US and these nations is absurd.

BTW, 'civilized warfare' is the most absurd and ridiculous word combination I've ever read...

You are completely wrong.  Civilized warfare may not be a pleasant thing, but it is very much different than barbaric warfare, where no prisoners are taken, the population exterminated and so forth.

[pianistimo]

little children are most like God wants us to be.  why would it scare them?

in zech. 10:7-8 it speaks of the nations that are loved again after the chastisement of war - that He will 'whistle for them' much as a father whistles for his children.  come over here - i have something to show you.  'indeed, their children will see it and BE GLAD, their heart will rejoice in the Lord.'

can you imagine the joy of the earth after a world war and then suddenly seeing peace.  children who have been through losing parents and brothers and sisters, to suddenly be reunited with them and God.  God has the power over death - the worst possible thing to children and adults alike.  if God uses this power for good - why would children be fearful?

also, there's a scripture that says even the snakes will not be allowed to bite anymore.  the lions will lie down with the lambs.  this is an ideal world for children.  they are prophecied to be 'playing in the streets.'  this isn't even a good idea at this point.  so many random drive-by shootings in big cities.

[freakofnature]

Guatanamo was just an example - I know, that there are many more jails where people are hold without questioning because they were at the wrong time in the wrong place... Why would the US stick innocent people in there? Simply because they don't care...

And I completely don't understand how killing people can be in any kind connected to the word 'civilized'... It's true that there are and were kinds of war that were even more cruel than the war on Iraq and Afgh., but thatt doesn't make a war civilized!

@pianistimo: Because they would go to hell if they don't believe what is written in a book that was created by men, not by "god"...