trade guantanamo prisoners for the two israelis

[pianistimo]

ok.  let's just do it.  send them back - under the condition that not one hair of the israelis be touched.  trade for trade.  they're all probably under 18 and worn out from the experience.  i don't think the military is necessarily going to have an immediate fighting force out of them.  send them back now.  at least we have a chance for a few lives saved.

and, whoever else is being held hostage.

then, we sit down AGAIN with the palestinians and say - ok.  you've been wanting a state.  we will equally divide you into 10 portions.  1/10 goes to israel 1/10 to jordan  1/10 to iraq  1/10 to iran  1/10 to syria  1/10 to egypt  1/10 to america  1/10 to europe  1/10 to turkey  1/10 saudi arabia.  that's just my idea.

they must know that's what israel did for so many many years.  they willingly settled in other countries so they could prosper and raise their families.  then, when the state of israel was made - formally - they could come back and settle.  palestine will never get what they want unless they have a fullfledged war - which i don't think would benefit them.  when europe gets involved in the middle east - that's the end of the whole shebang.  jerusalem will be divided and as bible prophecy goes (armies around jerusalem) = that's the end.  israel wins by divine right.

God is never unfair.  if they showed a little patience - it would be reciprocated.  if they only show beligerance - noone will care.  the red cross would help them if they let them.  but, this would be admitting that they don't have a workable country - that their state of affairs is in shambles - and their government is corrupt.

[gorbee natcase]

I don't want to into this one as I think the way Israil has treated the pallestinians is an utter disgrace. And I think Israil plays too much on U.S. support to get away with murder

What would you do if your homeland,and property was given away

[ada]

then, we sit down AGAIN with the palestinians and say - ok. you've been wanting a state. we will equally divide you into 10 portions. 1/10 goes to israel 1/10 to jordan 1/10 to iraq 1/10 to iran 1/10 to syria 1/10 to egypt 1/10 to america 1/10 to europe 1/10 to turkey 1/10 saudi arabia. that's just my idea.

Why on earth is America entitled to a slice of palestine under this proposed carve up?

And what does the Israeli/Lebanon conflict have to do with Guantanomo Bay, which has been ruled by your own Supreme Court as illegal?

[le_poete_mourant]

Not all Arabs are terrorists fighting for the same cause.  I doubt the Palestinians would want them. 

[prometheus]

There are hundreds, maybe even thousands, of palastinians that are held 'hostage' by Israel. A lot of them are underaged, have no process and may even be civilians.

For this reason Hamas kidnapped the Israeli soldier. They want to trade him for hundreds of Israeli POWs.

Israel reinvades Gaza and starts to bomb random buildings.

Then Hezbollah jumps in to open a second front. Now these Hesbollah guys are 'true fanatics' and contrary to the Palestinians they actually have some military might because in reality they are a Syrian proxy army. Just like Libanon has been a Syrian proxy for a long time.

Now Hezbollah has freed Libanon after Israel invaded and occupied it for 18 years.

So Hezbollah attacks a Israeli border guard post on the border that is still disputed. The issue is the Shebaa Farms. According to the UN they belong to Syria. But Syria and Libanon both claim they should be part of Libanon. And Israel claims and occupies the area. So Hezbollah attacked the IDF in or near the disputed border.

The result is that Israel thats to take down the Libanon infrastucture claiming they are at war with Libanon while they should be at war with Syria, if they are to be at war with someone. You can only be at war with a country, not with a terrorist organisation.

So now Israel managed to kill 62 Libanese civillians, who have nothing to do with all of this. Hezbollah managed to kill 12 Israeli soldiers. Israel managed to kill only one (or two) Hezbollah fighters. Pretty bad a military powerhouse, maybe the fifth or sixth strongest army in the world and armed with up to 200 nuclear warheads.

The reason Israel wants to bomb 'Libanon 50 years back in history', as they put it themselves is officially to put pressure on the Libanese government to disarm Hezbollah. Now everyone knows the Libanese government do not have the power to do this. They do not even have a real army, which explains why they haven't been fighting back. Libanon has been a slave state of Syria since the civil war and Hezbollah the only power powerful enough to drive back Israel.
Israel should really be attacking Damascus or nothing at all. This is just a show of power and maybe an attempt to crush Hezbollah, which will probably fail.

Syria actually has a real army and they don't want to take them up. Syria is glad that they can haress Israel using Hezbollah while they are safe and their disobidient slave state gets their infrastructure annihilated.

Hezbollah is glad because now they have their reason of existence back, to fight the occupier Israel. Since Israel withdrew from Libanon they no longer had a reason to exist. So they now managed to lure Israel back in.

The reason Israel is using so much violence is probaby because both the prime minister, Olmert, and the minister of defence both do not have a military background, which is a very rare thing in Israel. So they are probably afraid of looking soft in the eyes of the voter. So now they overreacted and they may have miscalculated.

World politics...


What does Afghanistan have to do with this? And the US and Guantanomo? Furter more the US claims they aren't prisoners of war and that they have to torture them for information so they can prevent terrorist attacks.

The US also veto'ed the resulution the rest of the world tried to pass to put pressure on Israel to decrease the violence.

France has declared they aren't very happy that a nation friendly to them has been attacked by Israel.

About the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which has little to do with Hezbollah:
I think someone should just flatten the temple mount. They both want it no matter what. They do not even want to share it or have the UN manage it.
Jerusalem could be split in half without much trouble. The Jewish settlements can also be disbanded. Then the west bank doesn't have to be split up in four parts which is what Israel wants. They want four Palestinian Islands which they can surround and control. East-Jerusalem, north west bank, central west bank and south west bank. And the Jordan border needs to be a buffer. Palestinia cannot share a border with any other country than Israel.
If Israel wants the west bank problem can be solved if one ignores the temple mount. Gaza and west bank can be connected with a high speed train through Israeli territory. Of course the problem remains if Israel wants to control this train but in theory that could be solved as well.

If that is done the problem is largely solved. The next major problem is that Palestinian refugees want to return to their homes in Israel and become Israeli citizens with equal rights. Israel doesn't want this because they want to be a jewish state and the demographics would develop in the oppisite direction.


I don't see how the temple mount and the refugee problems can be solved since they touch religion. An area which does not allow compromises.

[prometheus]

And I think Israil plays too much on U.S. support to get away with murder

They don't since the US keeps supporting them.

[prometheus]

We will equally divide you into 10 portions.  1/10 goes to israel 1/10 to jordan  1/10 to iraq  1/10 to iran  1/10 to syria  1/10 to egypt  1/10 to america  1/10 to europe  1/10 to turkey  1/10 saudi arabia.  that's just my idea.

I just got a call from the vatican, Holy See wants the 'equal part' that contains the temple mount. Also, Prince Albert needs some more land as well. He wants to open a yacht harbor and some casino's right in the middle east (rather near-east). Ive heard micronesia also wants a part as well.

Really, once should naturally realise that you cannot divide land equally. I mean, I will get Manhattan and you will get a part of equal size in the middle of the New Mexico desert. Manhatten will be a gazillion billion times valuable. The temble mount is priceless for both parties.

I know this is a yoke but I felt forced to point this out.

they must know that's what israel did for so many many years.  they willingly settled in other countries so they could prosper and raise their families.

So when did those people leave 'Isreal'?

When europe gets involved in the middle east - that's the end of the whole shebang.

Since when is Europe sending mass quantities of arms to the middle east? Sure, France has sold quite some of them in the past but I don't really think it adds up for much.

but, this would be admitting that they don't have a workable country - that their state of affairs is in shambles - and their government is corrupt.

Since they elected Hamas corruption ought to have decreased. But of course the rest of the world thinks the palestinians voted for the wrong party. So they lost support anyway. Finally there is a democratic election in the middle east and then thewest tries to dictate for which party they need to vote.

[gilad]

  war again. this time it looks bad, i think there will be a confrontation with iran and syria soon. now, or in a few years to come, it looks inevitable.

[le_poete_mourant]

I hate to squash your idea about this, pianistimo, but I believe when the Palestinians say they want their own state, they mean they want their OWN state.  Independently run.  No outside occupational forces. 

Unfortunately, this issue is not simply as black and white as it may seem.  I believe the Palestinians have more demands than simply freeing prisoners and getting their own self-governed state.  It is not a yes-no issue.  There are more points.  Further, Israel does not wish to look as though they are weak; to cut any sort of deal with an illegitimate government would leave the door open for future such kidnappings. 

Additionally, I suspect this issue in a way is like the "agree to disagree."  I am not saying that the Palestinians & Israeli enjoy their fight; however, I believe it is too long a tradition for them to let go easily.  Again, the issue of weakness comes into play.  Whoever is the first to reach out and say, "He-eeey, guys, let's cool it for a bit and I think we can work out our issues" will be exploited, or so they fear. 

[pianistimo]

agreed about the complicated issues.  prometheus, you seem to know, too, about the hamas and hezbollah aspects way more than i do.  i was listening to the radio yesterday and they said that those two groups are coming together right now - as they have a common enemy israel.  but, whenever they are not fighting israel - it seems to be exactly as u say - the syrians using their slaves to pester.

what always bothered me was that it seemed that israel really WANTEd peace and have offerred the palestinians - mutiple times very good working conditions - trust - etc.  and they turn on them and commit acts of terror in marketplaces and kill innocent people.  i still remember the nightclub and various bus bombings.  but - both sides are religously zealot - so maybe that is the issue right there.  that they will not be able to make peace without a world war.  this is so wierd...but according to bible prophecy.  that 'nations' will surround jerusalem. 

the mount of olives is actually where Christ is said to return.  it is said that jerusalem will become a point of 'confusion' and terror - because whoever fights against it will be fighting a third army.  God's.  it mentions in several books of prophecy that when the 'end time' comes - there will be 'desolation' behind - wherever the destruction God allows happens.  that the mount of olives (east of the temple mount?) will split in two and 'by that valley you shall flee.'  so whoever is in jerusalem is told, by prophecy, to flee.  every other location will be desolate.  perhaps the mount of olives will miraculaously split by a great earthquake (as that's usually how mountains split). 

just wondering about all this because it sounds very real and very close to the biblical version of how this will all pan out.  i know it sounds radical - but it also sounds possible.  how God can know the end of all things - is beyond me - but i know he can harden or soften people's hearts (as he did with pharoah).  i don't think the palestinians are becoming softer.  of course, neither are the israelis.  they believe that land was given to them by God.  it is a 'forever' covenant and still exists today.  to me, this is another proof that the bible has some history that is never forgotten.  also, all the places spoken of in the bible seem to be uncovered here or there in archeological digs.  they even found what they thought to be jericho with the walls fallen outwards.  the tunnel of david (water way) is still there.  the temple and temple mount.  so much history.  the palestinians wouldn't appreciate the jewish history and would try to destroy it.  www.templemount.org/visittemp.html tells about how muslims, jews, and christians view the area.

**agreed that there is probably no way to connect the guantanamo bay prisoners with the israeli prisoners.  it's just that in my way of thinking - things could be a lot less complicated if we did random kind things.  maybe it would work better than trying to be sneaky and/or appeasing our consciences by having a 'tribunal' (which i think in actuality would be an embarrassment to the usa).  i know there was wrong done as it was photographed.  i was ashamed to hear of the treatment.  and, yet, we have beheadings videoed which are just as cruel.  why don't we agree to let the prisoners go.  this is the right thing.  they sufferred.  they did their time.  enough.  it wasn't right.  tit-for-tat is just the way to go to a world war.  if we've basically won the war - and iraq is now able to get it's feet on the ground -why not send them back.  have an element of surprise and happiness for their families.  something good.  i guess that war is ugly for everyone and keeps getting uglier.  in my way of thinking - you have to show the enemy that your way is better.   

[living_stradivarius]

https://classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=12715

<< a hefty debate there

That "prophecy" is only self-fulfilling because some people take it way too seriously.

[prometheus]

what always bothered me was that it seemed that israel really WANTEd peace and have offerred the palestinians - mutiple times very good working conditions - trust - etc.

Well, it may seem to be like this but it is really not. Israel has sacrificed peace for land time on time again. They have sacrificed security for the existence of the state of Israel as they want it to be.

Neither sides have made the other an offer they can accept. They both need to get the temple mount otherwise they will lose. The problem is that Israel already has all the cards since they are such a military powerhouse. So every concession they make is a free gift to the Palestinians.

Neither sides have ever trusted each other. And if you look at the land offers they are much worse than the 1967 borders.

This shows the official and recognised borders of Israel:


Both the UN and the Palestinians have recognised these borders.

And Israel have made offers like these:







So Palestine will be split up in cantons in all Israeli offers. Also, the Palestinians were only offered Jerusalem suburbs in the Barak Camp David offer. Then Barak made his 'generous offer', the Palestinians only got 80% of their land and they would still be split up. They would get east Jerusalem, the heart of palestinian social and economic life. But of course they didn't get the temple mount. And Barak knew Arrafat could never accept this. Arrafat had claimed before that he would be killed by his own people if he accepted that Israel would get the temple mount.


So for each of these proposal a seperate map for Jerusalem and the temple mount area is needed. So it is very complex. And then the refugee issue.

Neither side has made an offer they could easily accept. Actually, only Israel makes offers since they already have everything.

that they will not be able to make peace without a world war.

World war? Why would there be a world war? I mean, there is nothing to fight for. And why would a world war solve the problem?

this is so wierd...but according to bible prophecy.  that 'nations' will surround jerusalem. 

Why do you think Israel wants to surround Jerusalem? Because of the Torah, not the other way around.

...things could be a lot less complicated if we did random kind things.

Both sides believe, at least the people in power on both sides, that kind behavior will only lead to them losing all their land. Israel believes they cannot give the Palestinians anything because then they will be driven in the sea. The Palestinians believe that when they stop resisting the occupation Israel will have no reason at all to give back anything.

[prometheus]

And getting back to the definition of terror.

Israel is now both trying to kill off Hezbollah through air attacks and destroying Libanese infrastructure in an attempt to put pressure on the Libanese government to take a different stance on Hezbollah.

Now the goal of the bombing of Beirut is not military. It is political; to put pressure. So this is clearly using violence for political gains. This clearly fits the definition of terrorism. They shock the Libanese population into calling out agaisnt their government.

One may even say that Israel may be trying to reignite the civil war.


So what Israel does now clearly fits the definition of terrorism. Eventhough all G8 world leaders claim Israel's terrorism is in self defence. See, one can use terror in self defence.


Also, a big point is made about the fact that Hezbollah is using arms from Iran. Israel has been using arms belonging to the US since their existance. So what is the difference?

[pianistimo]

war is madness.