What might you suggest to firm up the too delicate touch of a 9 year old girl?

[barnowl]

Her teacher resorted to Hanon, but the girl practiced  the exercises so much her mother couldn't stand it and  inisisted she stop with the Hanon already. Following the very general advice of Bernhard, I suggested to the teacher that she prescribe pieces instead of Hanon.

I found this immensely satisfying, by the way, because though not at all steeped in musical pedagogy, I could safely echo our Zen Master (Bernhard, in case you're wondering) and this approach would prove a more valuable, more satisfying alternative for this little girl than those awful drills. The teacher agreed with me (well, Bernhard, anyway ).

My question now is, what pieces might that little girl attack? I haven't met her, and don't know her level, but I hope this problem is something you face so often that you have the pieces in mind to ameliorate it. 

You might also have other things to recommend. If so, I would be very happy to know tham.

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

I will try to give advice accordings to my knowedge. Strengthening the fingers is crucial and proper methods should be given to "ameliorate" the situation. From my experience, Hanon might not do anything and might even hurt her, as her fingers aren't yet established properly. I recommend Wieck's excercises(He was the teacher and father of Clara Schumann). They teach good legato and and even sound. I would also recommend Schmitt. I don't want to chide away at Bernhard's theories, but certain excercises are intended to improve finger strength. Not that I am irreverent to Bernhard's methods, but certain excercises will speed up the learning process because they attack the child's specific needs. The teacher might also provide some Czerny etudes, the 8 bar ones. The contain finger patterns such as12345 54321 for each hand, broken intervals such as 1-2,1-3.1-4.1-5 for wrist action and finger accuracy. These in my opinion, are essential. Hope my voluble opinion helps.

[barnowl]

Of course your opinion helps, and I thak you for your contribution. But, it's the kid's mom who's the problem. She can't stand exercises, and wants her little girl to play pieces.

[debussy symbolism]

I don't want to sound inimical, but the mom has to undestand that if she pays for the lessons, her money might as well pay off.

[barnowl]

True. But we can't expect all moms/dads to be logical.

[debussy symbolism]

That doesn't make sense. It is in fact not logical for them to deny her daughter of the privalage of practicing excercising. This reminds me of Shakespeare's the "Tradegy of Othello", where Othello abandons all reason for the sake of jealousy. If the parents are clearly driven by the incessant sounds of excercises which drives them mad, then it is either they understand or they don't, hopefully not the later. My guess is that the teacher needs to talk to the parents.

[debussy symbolism]

The parents have to understand that without the excercises, their daughter will not play the pieces or play them properly. If they pay for the lessons, they pay for everything. The excercises are concomitant to the pieces.

[pianiststrongbad]

I'm in the boat that thinks you should not do technical exercises and just play pieces.  That is not to say I never did exercises when I was learning- I was play them for several years for several hours a day.  After looking back on it now though, I think it is possible to gain just as much if not more finger strength from a Mozart Sonata as Hanon, or Czerny.  And it teaches music.  Afterall we are musicians, not technicians.

[galonia]

I don't believe that with most children, particularly girls, that it is so much a lack of strength in the fingers which creates that anaemic tone, than almost a fear of playing "too hard" - I've found this to be extremely common among girls perhaps because they think playing too hard is not feminine.

To this end, I wouldn't prescribe any exercises at all - but I would encourage her to listen closely to the tone she is producing with EVERYTHING she plays - all her pieces, all her scales; and demonstrate how to achieve a stronger tone.  I would praise her each time she achieves a stronger tone, and gently remind her that the keys won't hurt from her pressing harder.  She has to feel comfortable about producing bigger sounds, and no amount of playing exercises will help her overcome any emotional barrier she has to it.

Some pieces might be useful because of their nature - pieces which are fun to almost bash out - if she manages to have a giggle about it, it helps her overcome the hesitation about making strong sounds.  Some Bartok, Kabalevsky, etc could help, although the mother may not find some of these pieces particularly "pretty".  And note, even though these works are pedogogical in intent, I would never view them as exercises, to be repeated mindlessly.

(I have had mothers complain about some Bartok pieces, I know they're not the conventional "nice" sounding works, but I like them, and the child likes playing them, so I try to appease the mother by setting a "prettier" sounding piece as well, although all my students play pieces in a wide range of styles.)

[sarahlein]

 I agree with what galonia said and I'd like to add a little on:

To this end, I wouldn't prescribe any exercises at all - but I would encourage her to listen closely to the tone she is producing with EVERYTHING she plays - all her pieces, all her scales; and demonstrate how to achieve a stronger tone

specificaly about

....demonstrate how to achieve a stronger tone

The problem lies in using only the fingers in playing. The teacher must teach by demonstrating how to use the big muscles (shoulder, upper arm), rather than just the fingers.
"On piano playing"-by Gyorgy Sandor is excellent in explaining everything in detail much better than I can so I would recommend you get it ( and read it)

[pianistimo]

there are stances u can take with the fingers themselves that also give u a better sound. ur joints can be weak (and break - or turn inward instead of outward).  make sure she never allows her finger joints to 'break.'  i used to suggest the feeling of holding an apple...but now - i pretty much use a much flatter hand - so maybe to start suggest the feeling of holding 1/2 an apple.  when u see her finger joints breaking - remind her.  tell her to practice catching herself when she sees this happening with either hand.

as for the exercises - i think one should do whatever the teacher prescribes and not what the mother can't stand listening to.  just change teachers if u want to tell the teacher what to do.  this is an offence to teachers - because they don't give u something that will not help u in some way or other.  even if someone did the worst possible thing and gave the entire hanon book to learn - how long would that take?  unless ur a pretty poor practicer - maybe a year.  ur not going to play hanon forever.  maybe it will only be 2 months or 3 months.  that's not a terribly long time and no, it won't destroy ur musicality.  of course, there are probably much better sounding exercises - but these are built so you CAN concentrate on the sound u are producing and not the notes so much.

someone on the forum, on a topic similar to this one, suggested that you place ur hand on a table (full apple feel) and then slowly pull the hand back while tips of fingers slide until the fingers are in the correct position and the wrist is flat with the top of the hand.  this is the best position that i've found and leads to less stress.

[stevehopwood]

I am on the side of the 'play the pieces' people in this debate.

I am also on the side of the mom. I wouldn;t want the house filled with the sound of repetitive exercises, either.    DS, the matter of who is paying the bill is important as well. Keeping mother on your side is vital to a private teacher; loose her support and we will likely loose the child.

This is a nine year old child we are discussing here. IMHO, 9 year old kids should be playing stuff that interests and excites them. Do enough practise, and the finger strength will come.

There are all sorts of reasons why a child always plays softly - or loudly (the 'bangers'). Lack of finger strength is not often one of the causes, so approaching this problem from a technical angle is the wrong one. I agree with galonia; the problem is an aural one.

Steve 

[princess_moose]

I agree with Steve. At the young age, just let her play pieces for fun, not hassle her with boring exercises.

I think there is much to be learned from just playing pieces, just as there is from doing technical exercises. I don't have a teacher at the moment, but am just enjoying playing whatever I want. I don't want to have to play constant exercises that really don't help more than pieces do.

[pianistimo]

very few students naturally come up with the solutions to the sounds they are making.  u may give them exercises of a different nature than hanon - but u still have to explain HOW u want the exercise practiced and what u are learning with the exercise.  to break it down into steps.  

i'm not saying that pieces won't help.  i think they do - but u have to section out the areas u are targeting and say 'ok. we are working on legato or staccato or whatever ' and show them step by step HOW to play it efficiently.  some exercise books have the idea written in.  hanon is one - but it's not explained as well as many other exercise books.  czerny takes more time.  cooke is good.  some method books have exercises built in that compliment the piece and explain the process of learning whatever technique u are working.

one thing that hanon does that some of the other exercise books do not is that u practice endurance.  to play the first exercise combined with the second and so on.  u work up a sort of endurance of not only finger dexterity/evenness - but of doing a brain neural switch when u get to the next exercise and u don't stop.  i prefer the 'dozen a day' exercises now because they dothe same thing but are much shorter exercises.  you don't want to be wasting time, either.  you can progress through many exercises of different forms and types - but to be obsessive about exercising is probably like warming up too much before u run.  ur basically getting ur fingers warmed up.

teachers who have taught a long time can just make up exercises that are to the point - off the top of their heads.  dohnanyi, bartok, some of these can work rhythmic stuff.  i never liked off beat stuff myself - that much - but it does improve those neural connections.  i've always found easy mozart sonatas a good warm-up too  - but maybe the mother would be just as crazy with that.  why doens't the mother just go somewhere else in the house and drink a cup of tea?  or go outside for a while.

[barnowl]

These were all wonderful posts, and I'll pass the words along.

One thing I left out is that there are 5 other children in the family. The nine-year-old is the only one taking piano, but you can imagine that the house rocks with the clamor of all those kids. So I think the mom deserves a break in her desire for pretty sounds from the pianist in the family.

How nice of all of you to take the time to post here. Thank you.

[ingagroznaya]

I never had a student who would teach me how to teach. That's make me wonder how many of you are real... I just imagine Barnowl showing up to his lessons with more than few suggestions .

[stevehopwood]

I never had a student who would teach me how to teach.

Me neither. I am pretty sure barnowl isn't suggesting the little girl in question is trying to do so either.

That's make me wonder how many of you are real...

I am definitely real. I know princess_moose is real because she is a good friend of mine. I am certain that barnowl is read - she and I have exchanged pm's before now; either that or I have been talking to a very sophisticated computer. 

Actually, I think the others have to be real, too. Most of them are regular contributors here. I doubt unreal people would be able to do this. 

Of course, we might all simply be brains stored in bottles of nutrients, imagining we are real; that seems to me like a different discussion. 

I just imagine Barnowl showing up to his lessons with more than few suggestions .

Good for barnowl. If I were her teacher, I would welcome this. Were they practical, helpful, usefull suggestions, then I would act on them. If not, I would explain why not. I still don't see what all this has to do with this thread.

Steve 

[counterpoint]

Strengthening the fingers is crucial

There are few pianists and many piano teachers, who believe in the need of finger strength.

I don't believe, you need body builing for the fingers, but brain and ear training.
If you really want to play a crisp sound, you will be able to do this without any muscle training. Make a relaxed fist and let the fist fall on the piano keys. This will be loud enough for every piece. But only, if you don't hold your arm while falling.
If the girl plays too fearfully, it's not because she has not enough muscles at her fingers, but because she has not enough self-confidence.

[ingagroznaya]

I am certain that barnowl is read - she and I have exchanged pm's before now; either that or I have been talking to a very sophisticated computer. 

I thought He was a male.

[bernhard]

If the girl plays too fearfully, it's not because she has not enough muscles at her fingers, but because she has not enough self-confidence.

Actually, this girl has no muscles in her fingers!

No one has. 

I will repeat once again, there are no muscles in the fingers. The muscles that move the fingers are in the forearm and hand.

So "finger" strength is never an issue. And even if it was, we should be developping forearm/hand strength, which by the way are developped not by silly piano exercises (what a whimp way to go about it!) but by ridign a bicycle, mountain climbing, oriental martial arts and army training.

(By the way, counterpoint, I know you know that, Iīve just use your post as an useful quote )

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

The parents have to understand that without the excercises, their daughter will not play the pieces or play them properly. If they pay for the lessons, they pay for everything. The excercises are concomitant to the pieces.

Er...

No.

The parents have a right to be informed that exercises are not at all necessary. They are a 19th century tradition without any anatomical/physiological basis.

Anyone can play pieces properly and beautifully without ever touching an exercise.

No exercise is concomitant to any piece.

This does not mean that you should not play them. If you like that sort of thing, go ahead. But do not mislead yourslef and other people that they are serving some higher purpose than simply playing the exercise.

When the cartoon "Popeye" first came along as a propaganda device for tinned spinach, parents everywhere start stuffing their children with the vegetable. "You will get strong like Popeye". Nothing of the sort happened. Instead the children developped kidney stones. You see, spinach (as aubergine, tomatoes and strawberries) have lots of silica structures in their cells, which - if you have the tendency to do so - will cristalise in your kidneys.

So by all means eat spinach if you like it, but donīt go around saying that it will give you superhuman strength and hiding the fact that you may end up with kidney stones.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

My question now is, what pieces might that little girl attack? I haven't met her, and don't know her level, but I hope this problem is something you face so often that you have the pieces in mind to ameliorate it. 

Any piece that is easy/challenging for her (it will depend on her level).

Avoid the difficult /impossible ones until they have become challenging.

Have a look in these threads for ideas.

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2147.msg18098.html#msg18098
(Easiest piano piece ever written)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2562.msg22127.html#msg22127
(Suggestions for repertory for someone who has been playing for a year)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4140.msg38111.html#msg38111
(True repertory for total beginners)

 https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4416.msg41105.html#msg41105
(nice slow romantic piece for beginner)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5063.msg49589.html#msg49589
(Albums for the young)


Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[barnowl]

I thought He was a male.

He is. Not was.

[bernhard]

He is. Not was.

Even after the operation?

[counterpoint]

Actually, this girl has no muscles in her fingers!

No one has.
...
(By the way, counterpoint, I know you know that, Iīve just use your post as an useful quote )

Bernhard, are you sure, that there aren't any muscles in the fingers???  

But I know, you don't need them, when playing piano.

Sometimes you don't even need the fingers  

That's the funniest part in piano lessons, when you tell the kids: "you don't have to move your fingers!"

[barnowl]

This for Inga.

Woman, you are obsessed with unreal people, self winking people, winking in the dark people, and so on. Freud would suspect that you're projecting.

I'm real, Inga.

I'm 72 year-old man who has  had 18 months of study in the early 80's and now I'm again a student..

During lessons, my teacher and I sometimes talk about things not related to me.  We've drawn each other out on a variety of subjects, and she's come to feel that I might have something to contribute on topics where I am not  the focus.  In the last lesson, teacher was a little down, a little worred about her darling little 9 year-old student.

When she asked me what I thought she should do, she'd already decided to use pieces over Hanon. She just wanted a little affirmation, and happily, I gave her the answers she wanted to hear.
But, must someone tell you that not every teacher is as knowledgeable and self assured as Bernhard.  Fewer still have the wisdom, love, and insight of Galonia!!

So, we have the Galonias and Berhards in our midst, dispensing all this great stuff to us lesser mortals, and you worry about phonies?

See a shrink, Inga.

[barnowl]

Even after the operation?

    ;

[bernhard]

Bernhard, are you sure, that there aren't any muscles in the fingers???   

It is a well known anatomical fact (ask your doctor next time you see him/her).

The confusion comes from using the expression "finger-muscles" and mistaking it by muscles in the fingers.

The fingers (like all other moving parts in the human body) are moved by muscles. These are the "finger muscles". There are muscles to flex the fingers, and muscles to extend them. There are muscles to adduct and abduct them. Heck, there are even muscles to rotate them!

However none of these muscles are located in the fingers proper. Theis tendons extend all the way down to the finger tips, and that is how fingers are moved. So there is no way to strengthen the fingers, although you can strengthen the muscles that move the fingers and that are located elsewhere.

If you want the full anatomical details, have a look here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4145.msg38568.html#msg38568
(beginner’s muscle development – anatomy of the hand forearm – true reasons for extremely slow practice)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[stevehopwood]

Many apologies for accusing barnowl of being female even though I know he is male. Sorry fella. 

Many apologies for accusing inagroznaya of being male. 

That apart, my comments stand 

Steve 

[barnowl]

It is a well known anatomical fact (ask your doctor next time you see him/her).

The confusion comes from using the expression "finger-muscles" and mistaking it by muscles in the fingers.

The fingers (like all other moving parts in the human body) are moved by muscles. These are the "finger muscles". There are muscles to flex the fingers, and muscles to extend them. There are muscles to adduct and abduct them. Heck, there are even muscles to rotate them!

However none of these muscles are located in the fingers proper. Theis tendons extend all the way down to the finger tips, and that is how fingers are moved. So there is no way to strengthen the fingers, although you can strengthen the muscles that move the fingers and that are located elsewhere.

If you want the full anatomical details, have a look here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4145.msg38568.html#msg38568
(beginner’s muscle development – anatomy of the hand forearm – true reasons for extremely slow practice)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

We have discussed this in another thread, and although there are muscles in the fingers, they're so small to be inconsequential. (I could do the same blinking Search I did previously  and endup with a llink to an anatomical diagram which shows the muscles in the fingers (one muscle per finger, if  remember correctly. But I'm too lazy.)

What irks me, though, is that people then say, in effect, you don't make your fingers stronger.

Well, you do — sort of. Playing Hanon, Czerney, or pieces, you strengthen the muscles in the forearm that control the fingers, which, in effect, is strengthening the fingers. Over time, you feel the reults by your more authoritative spanking of the keys (when it's called for), and the improved control of your fingers, as well.

Every single one of you has experienced this - maybe a long time ago, but I see it at least once a week during to practice. You go to play a series of notes and chords, and damn! you're embarrassingly anemic at a certain place. So you repeat, repeat repeat, and voila! You become  strong where  previously, you were weak and awkward.

But then again, I could be all wet. Prove me wrong and I'll capitulate.

[bernhard]

We have discussed this in another thread, and although there are muscles in the fingers, they're so small to be inconsequential. (I could do the same blinking Search I did previously  and endup with a llink to an anatomical diagram which shows the muscles in the fingers (one muscle per finger, if  remember correctly. But I'm too lazy.)

Yes, you are wrong.

The diagram showing muscles "in the fingers", had already been shown before and I had already pointed it out, and I was sort of tired of repeating myself so I let it pass.

If you look carefully at the digram, it does not show any muscles in the fingers (no, not even small ones to be inconsequential).

It looks like the fingers, but it is actually the hand. Because the bones of the hands are a continuation of the bones of the finger (the falanges), it looks like the fingers.

Those small "inconsequential" muscles are the interossei and the lumbricales, and they are far from inconsequential, in fact they are fairly important for piano playing. But they  are not located in the fingers, they are located in the hand - as the diagram clearly shows. As I said, this confusion has been made before.

For a full accout of the importance of these small inconsequential muscles, I direct you again to this thread:


https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4145.msg38568.html#msg38568
(beginner’s muscle development – anatomy of the hand forearm – true reasons for extremely slow practice).

What irks me, though, is that people then say, in effect, you don't make your fingers stronger.

Well, you do — sort of. Playing Hanon, Czerney, or pieces, you strengthen the muscles in the forearm that control the fingers, which, in effect, is strengthening the fingers. Over time, you feel the reults by your more authoritative spanking of the keys (when it's called for), and the improved control of your fingers, as well.

Every single one of you has experienced this - maybe a long time ago, but I see it at least once a week during to practice. You go to play a series of notes and chords, and ***! you're embarrassingly anemic at a certain place. So you repeat, repeat repeat, and voila! You become  strong where  previously, you were weak and awkward.

But then again, I could be all wet. Prove me wrong and I'll capitulate.

As for finger strength:

Playing the piano requires very little strength. You already have all the strength you need from simply going through normal daily life activities. There is absolutely no need to do any finger strengthening (that is, forearm and hand) exercises, and even if you did, it would make no difference at all to piano playing. Arnold Schwazzenegger and a seven year old kid will play the piano equally well and powerfully. Most  virtuoso pianists are weaklings (Kissin, Yundi Li), several of them were frail old men who could barely walk to the piano (Horowitz, Arrau), and yet at the piano were veritable powerhouses of sound.

Besides, muscle strength comes from tearing and rebuilding the muscle in a systematic way over several months (it takes average six months for muscle to grow). Which is why I can not go to the Gym looking like Yund Li, and come out at the end of a session looking like Arnold.

So, if finger strength was the main factor, you would not see results in less than six months to your piano playing.  And yet you yourself say that after several repeats "you can feel your fingers stronger".

No. What you feel  - and mistakenly verbalise it as strength - is co-ordination. Strength does not make one less awkward. Co-ordination does.

Does it matter to make this sort of distinction?

Yes, it very much does, because then you will direct your efforts in the correct direction. Practising for strength requires a very different approach than practising for co-ordination. If you practise for strength, you may even get some co-ordination (which is really what you want), but it will be mostly a hit and miss affair.  We do not have much time left for hit and miss.

I rest my case.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

(I was going to add few winks here and there, but now I have been repressed by Ingaīs comments)

[counterpoint]

Arnold Schwazzenegger and a seven year old kid will play the piano equally well

I would never doubt this   

[ingagroznaya]

But, must someone tell you that not every teacher is as knowledgeable and self assured as Bernhard.  Fewer still have the wisdom, love, and insight of Galonia!!

So, we have the Galonias and Berhards in our midst, dispensing all this great stuff to us lesser mortals, and you worry about phonies?

See a shrink, Inga.

Barnowl, with all do respect you wrote an absurd.

1. As a student who has had 18 months of study you have no business suggesting your teacher what to do, even is she asks for help in her frustration.
2. There are schools for such a knowledge and insights. If your teacher does not know how to handle basics, she should not teach.
3. This is a teachers forum, not a student corner. I'd like to see more realistic subjects being discussed here by teachers, not by a piano dilettante who is trying to teach.

That's just my humble opinion.

I do not worry about phonies. I am annoyed. If Bud feels like writing another obelisk, I'll gladly read it. What I am not pleased with is the form.

[ingagroznaya]

(I was going to add few winks here and there, but now I have been repressed by Ingaīs comments)

Bud, I'm very pleased you feel repressed. Winks makes no sense when one is talking about finger muscles.

[timothy42b]

At the risk of being yelled at by inga.etc, I want to point out something.

If the child avoids exercises totally, the mother will still not be spared.  Most pieces still have that one difficult measure, or sometimes only a couple of beats, that have to be played over and over to master.  That may be just as irritating.  It is not as if playing pieces means playing them all smoothly front to back, at least not if they are challenging enough to learn something. 

[ingagroznaya]

So "finger" strength is never an issue. And even if it was, we should be developping forearm/hand strength, which by the way are developped not by silly piano exercises (what a whimp way to go about it!) but by ridign a bicycle, mountain climbing, oriental martial arts and army training.

Bernhard is clearly asian

[ingagroznaya]

I don't know, guys... I feel this forum lack suspense. Timothy is right, at the end it all comes down to repetition. Can I suggest to buy digital piano or simply tell irritable mom to suck it up?

Eehhhh, we really need more suspense here. Could it be Barnowl who is worrying about his own fingers strength and feel too irritable to listen to him self practicing Hanon? 9 years old should be about the same level as he is. She is...He was She, right?

[debussy symbolism]

Looks like the parents have quite an ego. If they really care for her daughter, they will let her practice excercises all day in necessary. The parents have to undestand that if they want their child to progress, they will have to abide the fact that it is not up to them to see what their child practices. A digital piano might be a solution, temporarily perhaps. After that it's the real piano.

[counterpoint]

A digital piano might be a solution, temporarily perhaps.

For heavens sake, is this your Earnest???   

That will make the "problem" growing to a real catastrophe!

You don't have to "make" the sound on a digital piano, you only press switches.

This will surely NOT "firm up the too delicate touch of a 9 year old girl"

[bernhard]

Looks like the parents have quite an ego. If they really care for her daughter, they will let her practice excercises all day in necessary. The parents have to undestand that if they want their child to progress, they will have to abide the fact that it is not up to them to see what their child practices. A digital piano might be a solution, temporarily perhaps. After that it's the real piano.

Any caring parent worth its salt will get involved  - and deeply so - in their offspring activities.

In modern societies where parents are more often than not enslaved by the system into working long hours, such involvement gets more and more frowned upon: "Leave it to the doctors to care for your childrenīs health" "Leave it to the school to provide an education to your children" "Leave it to the big food corporations to provide and adequate diet for you children". Above all donīt make waves.

In the UK, where I have lived until recently and from where I moved exaclty because of this attitude towards children, parents rarely - if at all see their children. They are dropped at school at 8:30 where they stay until 3:30, eating there some abominable grub. Then they are dumped at some "art club", "swimming lesson", "ballet class" and the like until 6:00 pm when they are collected, eat dinner and go to bed usually at 7:00 pm.

A baby at four weeks is given 16 vaccines of doubtful usefulness and - one suspects because research and researchers with alternative views are consistently suppressed in this area - possible harmful effects, because doctors (read here: pushers for the big drug companies) "always know best". and the parent should abide by this "because it is not up to them".

I am sorry, but such authoritarian, fascist streak is one I will not abide for.  I will not take rubbish from a medical doctor, a school teacher, or a football coach, so I  will certainly not take rubbish from a piano teacher.

To the credit of most of the professionals I ever dealt with, they had never any trouble answering my concerns and fully discussing matters with me. In matters of dispute, some convinced me, some I convinced. If there was a stalemate, then there they went the exit door, because as a parent it is my opinion that counts, not the professionalīs.

Blindly accepting someoneīs "authority" is not a good road to travel. You get informed, and if information conflicts, it must be solved one way or the other, but never through resort to authority.

Just because one billion flies eat dung it does not mean it is good for you.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

For heavens sake, is this your Earnest???   

That will make the "problem" growing to a real catastrophe!

You don't have to "make" the sound on a digital piano, you only press switches.

This will surely NOT "firm up the too delicate touch of a 9 year old girl"

Actually that was a good idea.

A state of the art digital piano has a better sound and exactly the same touch as any upright. (Have you ever heard of Yamaha "Grand touch" series: it uses the complete mechanism of a real piano). The sound is sampled form a concert grand, so it is better than most medium priced uprights. Plus they come with a sostenuto pedal - which no upright has.

I personally can see no reason to buy an upright  anymore. the best digital will be half the price and twice the sound quality.

If you are talking a gradn piano however, then of course, there is no comparison.

Then again, you may have read "keyboard" when he mentioned "digital piano". Keyboards are to be avoided like the plague if you want ot play the piano. But digitals are perfectly all right.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[barnowl]

True.

I have a new Digital. The sound is quite acceptable, the action is realistic and there are three functional pedals, just like in an acoustic.

And yes, as good as the sound is, I'd kill for a grand.

I meant to congratulate you on your move, Bernhard.

Baghdad, huh? 

[counterpoint]

Bernhard, I'm very confused.

I really know, that digital pianos sound very good, they sound even better than many acoustic pianos.

But they sound good equally, if you have a very bad, uncontrolled, lax or constrained type of playing. And it is not possible to make a digital piano sound strident, if its needed.

Digital pianos are soft-sound-optimized, and that's why I hate them as the devil as the devil hates the holy water 

You may exercise on a digital piano, if you know, how to play on a real piano, when you can't use it at the moment. But you can't learn how to make adequate keystrokes from a digital piano.

In this point I am not willing to let persuade me by anyone, not even by wise Bernhard

[pekko]

A baby at four weeks is given 16 vaccines of doubtful usefulness and - one suspects because research and researchers with alternative views are consistently suppressed in this area - possible harmful effects, because doctors (read here: pushers for the big drug companies) "always know best". and the parent should abide by this "because it is not up to them".

[Offtopic] Average annual number of smallpox cases in 1900-1904: 48,164.
United States cases per year since 1950: 0.
Worldwide cases per year since 1977: 0.
Average annual number of diphtheria cases in the U.S. in 1920-1922: 175,885.
U.S. cases in 1998: 1.
Average annual number of pertussis cases in 1922-1925: 147,271.
U.S. cases in 1998: 6,279.
Estimated average annual number of tetanus cases in 1922-1926: 1,314.
U.S. cases in 1998: 34.
Average annual number of paralytic polio cases in 1951-1954: 16,316.
U.S. cases of wild type poliovirus in 1998: 0.
Average annual number of measles cases in 1958-1962: 503,282.
U.S. cases in 1998: 89.
The number of mumps cases in 1968: 152,209.
U.S. cases in 1998: 606.
Average annual number of rubella cases in 1966-1968: 47,745.
U.S. cases in 1998: 345.
Estimated average annual number of cases of congenital rubella syndrome in 1966-1968: 823.
U.S. cases in 1998: 5.
Estimated average annual number of Hib cases before vaccine licensure: 20,000.
U.S. cases in 1998: 54.

Source: https://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/immu/immu/immu00.html

I slightly disagree with you. But this is ofcourse offtopic so I stop now.[/offtopic]

[bernhard]

[Offtopic] Average annual number of smallpox cases in 1900-1904: 48,164.
United States cases per year since 1950: 0.
Worldwide cases per year since 1977: 0.
Average annual number of diphtheria cases in the U.S. in 1920-1922: 175,885.
U.S. cases in 1998: 1.
Average annual number of pertussis cases in 1922-1925: 147,271.
U.S. cases in 1998: 6,279.
Estimated average annual number of tetanus cases in 1922-1926: 1,314.
U.S. cases in 1998: 34.
Average annual number of paralytic polio cases in 1951-1954: 16,316.
U.S. cases of wild type poliovirus in 1998: 0.
Average annual number of measles cases in 1958-1962: 503,282.
U.S. cases in 1998: 89.
The number of mumps cases in 1968: 152,209.
U.S. cases in 1998: 606.
Average annual number of rubella cases in 1966-1968: 47,745.
U.S. cases in 1998: 345.
Estimated average annual number of cases of congenital rubella syndrome in 1966-1968: 823.
U.S. cases in 1998: 5.
Estimated average annual number of Hib cases before vaccine licensure: 20,000.
U.S. cases in 1998: 54.

Source: https://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/immu/immu/immu00.html

I slightly disagree with you. But this is ofcourse offtopic so I stop now.[/offtopic]

Hence - in 2006 - the doubtful usefulness of this massive vaccination.

(There are of course several issues here including the hidden assumption that the decrease in these diseases is due to the introduction of vaccines - however, as you said, this is of topic, and my main four interests in life: sex, music, martial arts and cooking, do not include the subject of vaccination, so I cannot be bothered to write lengthy posts on the subject - I would rather do something else. Anyone who has children and an impartial evaluation of the freely available facts and debates should esaily come to their own conclusions - as I did - in regards to the risks of submitting their newlyborn to a battery of intravenously administered chemicals).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[debussy symbolism]

Actually that was a good idea.

A state of the art digital piano has a better sound and exactly the same touch as any upright. (Have you ever heard of Yamaha "Grand touch" series: it uses the complete mechanism of a real piano). The sound is sampled form a concert grand, so it is better than most medium priced uprights. Plus they come with a sostenuto pedal - which no upright has.

I personally can see no reason to buy an upright  anymore. the best digital will be half the price and twice the sound quality.

If you are talking a gradn piano however, then of course, there is no comparison.

Then again, you may have read "keyboard" when he mentioned "digital piano". Keyboards are to be avoided like the plague if you want ot play the piano. But digitals are perfectly all right.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

As you said, digital pianos offer sampled sounds. A digital piano sound is very, very much restricted to my opinion. I have a Kawai digital and a Baldwin acoustic, upright and straight away, I can say that the Kawai comes nowhere close to the sound and touch of my Baldwin. (Although I can't play with headphones on the acoustic). The digital piano sound is very very much restricted and the sound of my Baldwin is very "beefy". You are also wrong in stating that no upright has a sostenuto pedal. Mine does. Mine is a 243 e model, professional. I just don't see how a digital piano can compare to an acoustic one because of the sampled sounds.
 (Have you ever heard of Yamaha "Grand touch" series: it uses the complete mechanism of a real piano)

Wouldn't that be a real piano, hence the mechanism? To my knowledge, digital pianos sound very restricted, and it is much harder to find the exact nuances(try playing Debussy).

[ingagroznaya]

(Have you ever heard of Yamaha "Grand touch" series: it uses the complete mechanism of a real piano). Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Baghdad???

Do not believe everything you hear.

[ingagroznaya]

To my knowledge, digital pianos sound very restricted, and it is much harder to find the exact nuances(try playing Debussy).

Try comparing basic new Yamaha upright to high end digital Yamaha - you'd be surprised...
Compare apples to apples, not to oranges.

I do not think Kawaii makes best digital.

[ingagroznaya]

I personally can see no reason to buy an upright  anymore. the best digital will be half the price and twice the sound quality.

If you are talking a gradn piano however, then of course, there is no comparison.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

My digital is twice the price of my upright.

I guess there aren't a way to compare apples to apples, there aren't much sex in Baghdad, the place you have described does not seem to exist. Which grand piano and where did you move, Bernhard? We all want to know .

[timothy42b]

My digital is twice the price of my upright.

Are you considering only purchase price?  Or life cycle price?

A compact fluourescent light bulb might cost four times as much to purchase new.  But if energy costs are high, it might be cheaper after the first month.

The acoustic piano needs regular tuning and maintenance, and you should include that in the price.  Over ten years, four tunings a year would probably buy a new digital.