Music that deserves to be neglected

[bflatminor24]

The douchebag was joking you oversensitive hippies. My God I hate PC people. He chose some of the gems of the standard repertoire and denigrated them to get a response from this otherwise deadbeat thread.

Talk about music that sounds ugly, I vote Bartok, Xenakis and Boulez. Messiaen is close. And I don't care how "open-minded" you pricks are. They sound ugly.

And before you acuse me of atonality-phobia or something, bear in mind I am a huge fan of Sorabji, Prokofiev, Scriabin, Shostakovich, and others. And don't give me your stupid lecture about how "Xenakis isn't atonal, he's ____." F.uck you. I hear no tonality there. Just a wash of sound. And as Panic always said, "staff paper, not graph paper." Stick to architecture.


~Max~

[ahinton]

Talk about music that sounds ugly, I vote Bartok, Xenakis and Boulez. Messiaen is close. And I don't care how "open-minded" you pricks are. They sound ugly.

Three very different composers, one of whom encourage one of the others and the third almost certainly never met either of the others. Many won't share this view, but it's your view, so that's that.

And before you acuse me of atonality-phobia or something, bear in mind I am a huge fan of Sorabji, Prokofiev, Scriabin, Shostakovich, and others.

But where's the atonality in the music of these composers? Sorabji veered towards it very occasionally, as did Skryabin right at the end of his short life, but there's precious little in the other two Russians' work that proceeds for more than a few seconds without tonal reference and there is much in their work that is blatantly and unashamedly tonal.

You seem to be developing a degree of intolerance that may run the risk of reminding some readers of a certain other forum member whose reputation depends substantially upon abusiveness and offensiveness; I hope that this isn't set to become a general trend...

Best,

Alistair

[bflatminor24]

Three very different composers, one of whom encourage one of the others and the third almost certainly never met either of the others. Many won't share this view, but it's your view, so that's that.
But where's the atonality in the music of these composers? Sorabji veered towards it very occasionally, as did Skryabin right at the end of his short life, but there's precious little in the other two Russians' work that proceeds for more than a few seconds without tonal reference and there is much in their work that is blatantly and unashamedly tonal.

You seem to be developing a degree of intolerance that may run the risk of reminding some readers of a certain other forum member whose reputation depends substantially upon abusiveness and offensiveness; I hope that this isn't set to become a general trend...

Best,

Alistair

Alistair,

Two cases in point: I disagree about Scriabin, Sorabji, Prokofiev and Shostakovich. There are many works with substantial atonality. I know because I have heard them and seen the score. There is nothing wrong with that.

However I think the other three composers sound ugly for a few reasons...tone clusters are generally not too pleasant to listen to and I also don't like music that isn't spaced out evenly...you'll notice this in Messiaen in particular. I think Bartok came up with the ugliest sounding harmonies. And Xenakis was too mathematical and his music sounds very clustered, calculated and "blocky." I just don't enjoy listening to these composers compositions. I'm not intolerant - I knew someone would try to pin that on me but it's just not true. I've heard everything and grown to like a huge range of music. I also like Ronald Stevenson and Finnissy and other more contemporary composers. So please....

~Max~

[mephisto]

Alistair,

Two cases in point: I disagree about Scriabin, Sorabji, Prokofiev and Shostakovich. There are many works with substantial atonality. I know because I have heard them and seen the score. There is nothing wrong with that.

However I think the other three composers sound ugly for a few reasons...tone clusters are generally not too pleasant to listen to and I also don't like music that isn't spaced out evenly...you'll notice this in Messiaen in particular. I think Bartok came up with the ugliest sounding harmonies. And Xenakis was too mathematical and his music sounds very clustered, calculated and "blocky." I just don't enjoy listening to these composers compositions. I'm not intolerant - I knew someone would try to pin that on me but it's just not true. I've heard everything and grown to like a huge range of music. I also like Ronald Stevenson and Finnissy and other more contemporary composers. So please....

~Max~

Do you belive that it is a fact that Bartok`s music is bad and his music SHOULD be neglected, and that everybody who likes his music have bad taste? Or that YOU just don`t like him because of personal problems with his music?

[ahinton]

Alistair,

Two cases in point: I disagree about Scriabin, Sorabji, Prokofiev and Shostakovich. There are many works with substantial atonality. I know because I have heard them and seen the score. There is nothing wrong with that.

However I think the other three composers sound ugly for a few reasons...tone clusters are generally not too pleasant to listen to and I also don't like music that isn't spaced out evenly...you'll notice this in Messiaen in particular. I think Bartok came up with the ugliest sounding harmonies. And Xenakis was too mathematical and his music sounds very clustered, calculated and "blocky." I just don't enjoy listening to these composers compositions. I'm not intolerant - I knew someone would try to pin that on me but it's just not true. I've heard everything and grown to like a huge range of music. I also like Ronald Stevenson and Finnissy and other more contemporary composers. So please....

~Max~

No, not "So please"! No need! You listen - and react - as you feel inclined to whatever you do. I have no problem with that, either when I do or when I don't happen to agree with you!

As to the "atonality" question, I guess that our ears sometimes just tell us the same things in different ways - well, so be it; this may well be in part to do with our different listening experiences and the order in which they occurred in our respective lives - no harm in that.

Best,

Alistair

[bflatminor24]

Do you belive that it is a fact that Bartok`s music is bad and his music SHOULD be neglected, and that everybody who likes his music have bad taste? Or that YOU just don`t like him because of personal problems with his music?

This thread is an unequivocally opinioned one: there is very little criteria for determining "bad" music. I never argued that Xenakis and Bartok were "bad," only that I thought they sounded ugly.

My criteria for "good music" is the following. Bear in mind that just because music has these criteria, does not mean it is good music. These criteria are merely prerequisites, I believe, for good music.

-beginning, middle, end
-development of a theme
-a sense of cadence
-structured rhythm (not arbitrary)

Bartok and Xenakis may fall under these categories but I still think they sound ugly. It is hard to define what sounds pleasing, even within the realm of Western harmony.

~Max~

I have never heard a Bartok composition that I enjoyed listening to.

[phil13]

I have never heard a Bartok composition that I enjoyed listening to.

How about the Concerto for Orchestra?

I'm not a fan of Bartok, and even I liked that.

Phil

[bernhard]

I´m not a fan of Bartok either, but what about "Allegro Barbaro"?

[moi_not_toi]

How about the Concerto for Orchestra?

I'm not a fan of Bartok, and even I liked that.

Phil

That and the Piano Concertos are pretty good.

[mephisto]

The way I see it not liking Bartok is the same as not liking Bach, Beethoven or Brahms= Just ignorant(of course if you don`t liek classical music you`re not...).

Bartok`s uses the sonata form a lot just like Beethoven and Brahms.

[bflatminor24]

The way I see it not liking Bartok is the same as not liking Bach, Beethoven or Brahms= Just ignorant(of course if you don`t liek classical music you`re not...).

Bartok`s uses the sonata form a lot just like Beethoven and Brahms.

Stupid. Bartok is completely different in almost every way I can fathom. His rhythms are different, his structure, style, harmonies, and even the types of compositions themselves.

Bartok was a Hungarian composer descendant of a gypsy. He traveled around Eastern Europe and the Middle East searching for new harmonies and rhythms. That's great! Except I hate the way they sound. Personal preference has nothing to do with ignorance.

You'd be surprised to learn that some members of this forum actually DON'T like Bach, Beethoven and Brahms...

~Max~

[mephisto]

Stupid. Bartok is completely different in almost every way I can fathom. His rhythms are different, his structure, style, harmonies, and even the types of compositions themselves.

~Max~

Bartok uses structures VERY SIMILAR AND ALMOST IDENTICAL to Mozart, Haydn and Brahms in his music. That is the sonata form. So what you write is not true.

He also uses polyphony in a sense like Bach, Yes like Bach.

May I assume that you don`t like the music of Ginastera, Tveit, Szymanowski, Kchataturian, Villa Lobos, Ornstein, Feinberg, Roslavets, Shchedrin etc to?

I hope you do like their music. After all they did`t write "ugly cluster chords" by accident.

[moi_not_toi]

Bartok uses structures VERY SIMILAR AND ALMOST IDENTICAL to Mozart, Haydn and Brahms in his music. That is the sonata form. So what you write is not true.

He also uses polyphony in a sense like Bach, Yes like Bach.

May I assume that you don`t like the music of Ginastera, Tveit, Szymanowski, Kchataturian, Villa Lobos, Ornstein, Feinberg, Roslavets, Shchedrin etc to?

I hope you do like their music. After all they did`t write "ugly cluster chords" by accident.

Who says cluster chords are ugly?
Its a rare thing when I don't like one.

[bflatminor24]

I like how you try to use fact and evidence to substantiate an opinionated debate. Amusing.

It's my own personal opinion that Bartok and Xenakis wrote unpleasant sounding music.

And FYI I do like Ornstein, Szymanowski and Villa Lobos. I haven't heard much Feinberg, but I like what I've heard. Same goes with Ginastera, Schedrin, and Khatchaturian.  I'm not too familiar with much of the other composer's music.

I do like some cluster chords, like the ones Sorabji used...very effectively, might I add.

~Max~

[mephisto]

Who says cluster chords are ugly?
Its a rare thing when I don't like one.

I don`t think they are ugly. I like them.

[mephisto]

--

[xavierm]

Bartok is amazing. Bach is amazing. Chopin is amazing. Prokofiev is the most amazing ( a little favoratism from me).

Mozart is slightly overrated.

[bflatminor24]

My old teacher made me play Bartok Mikrocosmos and Suite Op. 14 and I hated every single note. I listened to his advice but honestly looking back, I feel like I gained nothing from playing it.

What do you guys think about Alkan, Godowsky, Sorabji, Dohnanyi, and Bowen?

I think they're all grrrrrrrrrreat and all underrated.

~Max~

[bella musica]

What about Ives? Concord Sonata?

[bella musica]

quote author=bella musica link=topic=1934.msg208768#msg208768 date=1152850477]
What about Ives? Concord Sonata?

Not overrated, underrated, I mean.[

[bflatminor24]

I like Charles Ives' Concord Sonata!!

Not sure about his other compositions though...

~Max~

[xavierm]

I like Charles Ives' Concord Sonata!!

Not sure about his other compositions though...

~Max~

His orchestral stuff is amazing. He didn't write too much for piano, and only some of it is worthwhile methinks.

[moi_not_toi]

methinks.

I HATE THAT WORD!!!!
IT SHOULD BE OBLITERATED FROM ENGLISH!!!!!
 

[burstroman]

Some of the piano music of Reynaldo Hahn is quite forgettable.  Fortunately, he could write songs.

[tanman]

me votes for hanon!

[arensky]

John Tesh

Atomic Kitten

Britney Spears

Kid Rock

Kiss

Cherubini

Ray Conniff

Horace Heidt

Anne Murray

Music Box Dancer 

Rick Astley

Billy Ray Cyrus

Hansen

Backstreet Boys 

John Lennon (post 1970 until "Double Fantasy") 

Jeff Lorber Fusion

Micheal Buble (listen to the real thing, Sinatra/Torme/Darin etc)

Sheryl Crow

Theresa Brewer

Kenny G

Neil Young

Dave Clark Five

Lowell Lieberman


still thinking, not done yet 12:51


Falco

Joachim Raff

Lorie Line

Richard Clayderman

Esteban

Engelbert Humperdinck (the pop singer not the composer)



The above constitutes the most meaningless ephemeral **** I can think of. And I'm sure there is more but there are better things to do than recall it. There is a lot of music I don't like, but that doesn't mean it's not good and should be neglected. 

[healdie]

I think the Mendelssohn songs without words are easy to forget and the List consolations
oh and anything by that polish guy whose name i can't remember

[term]

I think the Mendelssohn songs without words are easy to forget and the List consolations
oh and anything by that polish guy whose name i can't remember

I agree.

I also vote for mozart and beethoven. We heard way too much from them.

[Petter]

[communist]

you have the right to not like composers, i honestly do not like Xenakis and Boulez either but that means i just do not listen to them, And there are many composers i dont like but i just do not listen to there music. So you have the right to not like them but just because you do not like them does not mean there music should be neglected.

[communist]

just because you do not like Opus Clavicembalisticum as well as other Sorabji dose not mean it should be abolished from history. I do not like Sorabji either honestly but that dose not mean no one else should like him. I honestly like Shostakovitch's piano music but i have no ploblem with Thracozaag hating them.

[stucoy]

https://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EU85bUyDPWs&feature=related

[stucoy]

https://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EU85bUyDPWs&feature=related

I'm not sure why this music exists, or why some people play it, or listen to it.

[cmg]

Cherubini






The above constitutes the most meaningless ephemeral **** I can think of. And I'm sure there is more but there are better things to do than recall it. There is a lot of music I don't like, but that doesn't mean it's not good and should be neglected. 

Cherubini?  Cherubini!!  Are you mad?  He was immensely admired by contemporaries.  Beethoven, Himself, regarded Cherubini as the greatest of his contemporaries.  In fact, Beethoven requested that Cherubini's 1816 Requiem Mass be performed at his own funeral.  Brahms, Schumann all admired Cherubini's genius.

Check your hearing aid batteries, arensky.

[argerichfan]

I honestly like Shostakovitch's piano music but i have no ploblem with Thracozaag hating them.

Yet Thracozaag posted that opinion back when the thread began in 2003!  I wonder if he still feels that way.  I generally enjoy Shostakovich's piano & chamber music (the string quartets are particularly magnificent), but admit to continuing problems with the symphonies.  The Shostakovich lobby (centered in NYC it appears) is incessantly trying to proclaim profundities and secret anti-Stalinist agenda in even the most empty, bombastic of the symphonies. 

The 5th, 7th, 11th and 12th are utterly overrated.  IMO of course. 

[arensky]

Cherubini?  Cherubini!!  Are you mad?  He was immensely admired by contemporaries.  Beethoven, Himself, regarded Cherubini as the greatest of his contemporaries.  In fact, Beethoven requested that Cherubini's 1816 Requiem Mass be performed at his own funeral.  Brahms, Schumann all admired Cherubini's genius.

Check your hearing aid batteries, arensky.

I hit a nerve, sorry. And I have no hearing aid, nor need one. 

I was going to write after Cherubini " unless Callas is singing 'Medea' " . I'm sorry (not really) but Cherubini is the epitome of dry classicism. Besides Medea I have heard some string quartets and religious music, not the Requiem that you mention, though. I find his music to be neither great, terrible, profound, sublime or even offensive. It produces in me absolutely no reaction. It is respectable and well crafted, and that's all I can say about it. If you like it, that's fine, and I'm not going to stop you or others from enjoying it. In fact, I will listen to some and see if my opinion changes.

 Sorry, Luigi.

[cmg]

I hit a nerve, sorry. And I have no hearing aid, nor need one. 

The only nerve you hit was my (unwavering) respect for your opinion.  Look.  Give Cherubini a second listening.  It's not "dry classicism."  His masses are extrordinary.  The Requiem that Beethoven adored is nearly perfect.  And the massive "Messa solenne" rivals Beethoven's "Missa Solemnis" for profundity and grandeur.  Sorry to have offended you.     

[argerichfan]

cmg, I like what you say here.  Have you ever listened to Elgar's Dream of Gerontius?  It was outrageously 'Roman Catholic' for its time and place, but in the grand scheme, it is no more so than the examples here of Beethoven, Cherubini and Mozart.   

[communist]

I think the Mendelssohn songs without words are easy to forget and the List consolations
oh and anything by that polish guy whose name i can't remember

Karol Szymanowski, Moritz Moszkowski, Franz Xaver Scharwenka, Maria Szymanowska, Władysław Żeleński, Henryk Wieniawski, Ignance Jan Paderewski, Krzysztof Panderecki, Witold Lutosławski, Władysław Szpilman, Mieczysław Karłowicz?

any of those guys ho your looking for?

[arensky]

The only nerve you hit was my (unwavering) respect for your opinion.  Look.  Give Cherubini a second listening.  It's not "dry classicism."  His masses are extrordinary.  The Requiem that Beethoven adored is nearly perfect.  And the massive "Messa solenne" rivals Beethoven's "Missa Solemnis" for profundity and grandeur.  Sorry to have offended you.     

I will give him a second listening. A while back there was a similar thread, in which I expressed my reservations about Busoni, among others. Mephisto (our forum member, not satan) suggested I should reconsider my opinion, and I did, and in fact found some music of his I rather enjoyed, although he still isn't my preferred cup 'o tea.

Perhaps Cherubini is overly subtle, like a neglected composer I love, Nikolai Medtner.

And no offense taken. 

[healdie]

Karol Szymanowski, Moritz Moszkowski, Franz Xaver Scharwenka, Maria Szymanowska, Władysław Żeleński, Henryk Wieniawski, Ignance Jan Paderewski, Krzysztof Panderecki, Witold Lutosławski, Władysław Szpilman, Mieczysław Karłowicz?

any of those guys ho your looking for?

no Chopin

I was just trying to add insult to injury and not name him (therfore neglecting to remember his name)

[healdie]

https://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EU85bUyDPWs&feature=related

Do you not like this??

if you look past the quater tone harmonies there is some beautifully stirring music here

especially in the 3rd movement

[cmg]

cmg, I like what you say here.  Have you ever listened to Elgar's Dream of Gerontius?  It was outrageously 'Roman Catholic' for its time and place, but in the grand scheme, it is no more so than the examples here of Beethoven, Cherubini and Mozart.   

I'm a huge fan of Elgar and "Gerontius," and I ain't no Catholic!  Frankly, I have a thing for masses, Requiem and otherwise.  If the Catholic Church has made one great contribution (and there may be only one  ), it's the liturgy.  The "text" is musical even without music!

This is off-topic, so I'll have to re-frame it:  "neglected music that is deserving," for me, would include Dyson's very moving mass/oratorio "Quo Vadis," George Lloyd's "Symphonic Mass" and "Requiem" and Theodore Gouvy's "Requiem."  And then we have those late, great Haydn masses.  Nuthin' greater. Thank Whomever, they're NOT neglected.

[argerichfan]

This is off-topic, so I'll have to re-frame it:  "neglected music that is deserving," for me, would include Dyson's very moving mass/oratorio "Quo Vadis," George Lloyd's "Symphonic Mass" and "Requiem" and Theodore Gouvy's "Requiem."  And then we have those late, great Haydn masses.  Nuthin' greater. Thank Whomever, they're NOT neglected.

Ah, George Dyson.  Try to catch a listen to The Canterbury Pilgrims if possible.  And how poorer Evensong would be without his three settings of the Anglican canticles.

[term]

no Chopin

I was just trying to add insult to injury and not name him (therfore neglecting to remember his name)

he was kidding^^

[communist]

no Chopin

I was just trying to add insult to injury and not name him (therfore neglecting to remember his name)

that was not an easy list to make 

[richard black]

Seeing as this thread has been revived, I'll put in a vote for anything by Kenneth Hesketh. I ended up helping to rehearse a piece of his for voices and small ensemble which was possibly the worst bit of music I've ever been up close and personal with. In the unlikely event he's reading this, I apologise - for missing the opportunity (after the first performance) for telling him to his face.

[indutrial]

I don't really think anything in the classical music world really demands neglect, though I wouldn't mind if some people calmed down about composers like Philip Glass, Steve Reich, and John Cage.

Being the heathen rock musician that I am, I would love to see a widespread condemnation of Metallica and Guns N' Roses (for taking advantage of an increasing stupid fan base at every turn), Three Doors Down (for becoming musical poster children for the U.S. Army), Bruce Springsteen (for never having a shred of talent but deciding that he should be the one to profiteer with a concept album about 9/11), and Fred Durst and Kid Rock (for making me forever ashamed to be a white American male).

[healdie]

Being the heathen rock musician that I am, I would love to see a widespread condemnation of Metallica and Guns N' Roses (for taking advantage of an increasing stupid fan base at every turn), Three Doors Down (for becoming musical poster children for the U.S. Army), Bruce Springsteen (for never having a shred of talent but deciding that he should be the one to profiteer with a concept album about 9/11), and Fred Durst and Kid Rock (for making me forever ashamed to be a white American male).

Hear Hear

Metalica are bad (Kirk Hammets guitar solos are some of the boringist ever) and Guns and Roses shocking Axle Rose sounds to me like a  shrieking whining little girl

[pianoperformer]

I’ve never liked Mozart. It just sounds empty and soulless to me.

I’ve heard a few pieces by Haydn and didn’t care for any of them.

Also, I recently listened to some of Beethoven’s late sonatas, and really didn’t like them, either. They sounded too, jazzy.

And, I like a lot of Dvorák’s music, but his 9th symfony really gets on my nerves.