Music that deserves to be neglected

[ahinton]

I vote that Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum should be obliterated from history as it is one of the most disgusting patterns of camel vomit that has ever been created and I think that rather than so many pianists trying to revive Sorabji (for no reason) they should let him disintegrate and do something else. Any other misguided attempts at composition which should have a nuke shoved between its barlines?

I "vote" (vote? - who's in charge of the supposed franchise?) -  that you give a moment's consideration to another solution, which is to stop listening to or looking at this music yourself rather than try to tell pianists and listeners what they should or should not do and why they should or should not do it according merely to your own alleged "ideas"...

Best,

Alistair

[opuswriter]

I have Ashkenazy's complete Chopin, and I know Idil Biret has also recorded complete Chopin for Naxos,
Ed

In my opinion, the difference in quality between these set of recordings are probably best measured in light years (to Ashkenazy's advantage of course)...

[opuswriter]

What about Gubaidulina's Chaconne? This must be one of the worst and ugliest pieces of music (read structured noise) I have ever heard...

[Derek]

There are quite a few composers who deserve the opposite: They HAVE been neglected and really deserve much more attention.

[sportsmonster]

i remember listening to ravels gaspard de la nuit. well. secon movement called ondine was nice. but the 3rd movement "scarbo" is horrible. sounds like a horror movie. scarbo means scaring, gohst ore something like that. if i remember right the story behind it is a gohst that scares someone to death.

some of ligetis etudes are also horrible with full of disharmonies and noice ( if i remember right) scriabin has some music that i happily would flush down the toilet. (not all of it) some is good. but boulez sonata is the worst....blææh....god help me!

[ramseytheii]

What is up with the sudden resurrection of all these incredibly old threads?


I think this thread should just die into extinction.  Back to the abyss with it.

Well, some of us weren't around a while ago, and want to add our own two cents to previous discussions.  If piano forum didn't want them to be revived and referenced, they wouldn't save 93 pages worth of posts.

Walter Ramsey

[presto agitato]

I want to nuke all of Godowsky's transcriptions of Chopin into oblivion. Transcribing Chopin's piano music for piano? Why mess with perfection?

I agree

[thorn]

i remember listening to ravels gaspard de la nuit. well. secon movement called ondine was nice. but the 3rd movement "scarbo" is horrible. sounds like a horror movie. scarbo means scaring, gohst ore something like that. if i remember right the story behind it is a gohst that scares someone to death.

Scarbo is a fantastic piece! 

although i agree it needs a bit of the neglective treatment... i get sick of the amount of pianists who just treat it as a race from beginning to end and totally neglect the emotional content.. i imagine the recording you heard to make you feel this way is one of these.

[pianote]

scarbo is either amaaaaaaaaaaaazing or down right awful... depending on the interpretation

[ahinton]

I want to nuke all of Godowsky's transcriptions of Chopin into oblivion. Transcribing Chopin's piano music for piano? Why mess with perfection?

I agree

Well, I don't - for several reasons, including but not necessarily limited to the obvious facts that
(a) this would be a waste of a very expensive "nuke" (and Geroge Bush would strongly disapprove of its use other than in that personal international vendetta that is his "war on terror"),
(b) Godowsky's massive and massively important series of studies on Chopin's Études already suffered more than enough "oblivion" in the three quarters of a century or so since their completion,
(c) they do not "mess" with anything" (remember that Chopin's Études are still present) and
(d) Godowsky held Chopin's Études in such high regard that he couldn't even express it fully in words alone, which may well be one reason why he felt it incumbent upon himself to celebrate them in his own musical recreations which are inherently neither inferior nor superior but different.

Do also bear in mind that Chopin himself would have written his own Études differently had he composed them at the time when Godowsky was active.

Who says - and with what authority - that Chopin's Études represent "perfection", anyway? They are undoubtedly some of the most remarkable piano études in existence and the first set are an especially astonishing achievement for a composer still in his 'teens, but there's no such thing as "perfection" other than as something towards which to strive - whether one is Joe Doe, Fryderyk Chopin, Leopold Godowsky or anyone else.

Best,

Alistair

[sportsmonster]

 i imagine the recording you heard to make you feel this way is one of these.

yes that might be possible. maybee i should listen to more recordings of the piece before i do another commet on it.. ehhe;). But yes i had a bad first impression. (bad piano player)
but people do also have different taste (that might be a reason too)
But i still like the second movement.

[liszt1022]

I think a committee should be formed to figure out which 5 of Mozart's sonatas and 5 of Mozart's concertos get to stay, the rest go. All the major-key ones sound the same, and no I'm never taking that back.

[chopet]

Im suprised no-one has mentioned Hanon yet....or have I missed something? But seriously....I hate it with a passion.... add to that Einaudi (soooo repetitive), some clementi (already been mentioned I know), any of this so called "music" in the charts today......most rap, dance, pop music......

[ramseytheii]

Im suprised no-one has mentioned Hanon yet....or have I missed something? But seriously....I hate it with a passion.... add to that Einaudi (soooo repetitive), some clementi (already been mentioned I know), any of this so called "music" in the charts today......most rap, dance, pop music......

Noone mentioned Hanon because Hanon is not music!

Walter Ramsey

[chopet]

Noone mentioned Hanon because Hanon is not music!

Walter Ramsey

good point 

[jre58591]

Noone mentioned Hanon because Hanon is not music!

Walter Ramsey

it is music, but its a bunch of excercises.

[mikey6]

Do also bear in mind that Chopin himself would have written his own Études differently had he composed them at the time when Godowsky was active.

That's debatable - there was a thread a while ago about whether composers would have written differently had they lived longer or lived in a different peroid, needless to say there was no answer or do I think you could come up with an answer.

[ivoryplayer_amf]

I know most of the people talked about on this thread are pianist...but I cant help but say this person.......

CHARLES IVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That man should have been shot for that crap his wrote, or jammed together whatever.  I put Charles Ives and rap in the same canon.  Its all CRAP~!

[ahinton]

That's debatable - there was a thread a while ago about whether composers would have written differently had they lived longer or lived in a different peroid, needless to say there was no answer or do I think you could come up with an answer.

If you don't think an answer is possible then you presumably don't really think that the matter is "debatable" after all. Of course one would be unable to speculate with any certain what differences there would have been in Chopin's writing had he been active around the turn of the last century, but given how he revolutionised the world of piano copmposition and playing with his Op. 10 études at so early an age, it would seem inconvceivable that, had he been in his youth towards the end of the 19th century, he would not have taken on board the developments in harmonic language and the other increasing complexities that grew during his century.

Best,

Alistair

[alejo_90]

A bunch of those contemporary atonal composers (not Prokofiev) . I'm fine with everything from 1650 to 1950.

Best
Alex

[bflatminor24]

I hate Bartok.

And before you get all huffy about how I'm afraid of atonal music, remember that I'm a huge fan of Sorabji, Rzewski, Finnissy, Prokofiev and others who wrote some atonal.

Bartok gets on my nerves. It's like "minimalist atonal," if I were to describe it, and it doesn't inspire any pleasant emotions for me. I'd rather listen to Sorabji.

Bartok should be neglected. It's just ugly. His Gypsy scales are also ugly.

I also don't like American composers. I think they're too jazzy, and very cliche. I think American music in general is inferior to German, French, Russian, Hungarian, and even English (lol). It's not very serious music as a whole and I think it's directionless. It's like airy, flamboyant and yet empty music. So yeah, Bartok, Gershwin, Copland, Bernstein....etc

~Max~

[JCarey]

---

[jre58591]

I know most of the people talked about on this thread are pianist...but I cant help but say this person.......

CHARLES IVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That man should have been shot for that crap his wrote, or jammed together whatever.  I put Charles Ives and rap in the same canon.  Its all CRAP~!

DIE

Yes, I'm pretty pissed. I regret having to do this, considering all of the friends I've made here. However, many of them have left, for reasons similar to mine. I have no motivation to post here anymore.I will now procede to fill my password with random characters in case I'm ever tempted to post again.

you will truly be missed, john. i guess we'll have to communicate through your forum and gamingforce (if you are ever there), where the music we like is actually appreciated.

[repeat]

No no no no no no no no no no. Too much of Chopin is neglected as is, like his mazurkas - who do you know that plays them all? Yet everyone focuses on his études and nocturnes and so on.

Chopin should not be neglected!

Agreed!! Getting into Chopins Mazurkas  is a tremendous poetic experience, even more so than his nocturnes!

[repeat]

No no no no no no no no no no. Too much of Chopin is neglected as is, like his mazurkas - who do you know that plays them all? Yet everyone focuses on his études and nocturnes and so on.

Chopin should not be neglected!

Agreed!! Getting into Chopins Mazurkas is a tremendoue poetic experiense, even more so than his Nocturnes.

[bflatminor24]

Why in God's holy hell am I posting here? You people... you're an embarrassment. Such ignorance... such downright stupidity... I don't even know where to start.

First of all, those of you narrowminded musical ignoramouses who don't understand that there is no true "good or bad" in art, I suggest you get over yourselves and learn a few things. So many of you are trapped in your sheltered little bubbles, unwilling to try anything new. YOU are the people who make composers such as myself have to live in poor conditions, without so much as a few dollars to make it from one week to the next comfortably. You are the people who make it difficult for musicians who want to focus on neglected repertoire and spread the music of composers equally deserving of fame as the greats to live adequately. And you are the people who give not a moment's consideration for those who feel differently than you.

This was the worst, right here:

This... this hurts... Charles Ives was a genius. This individual probably heard maybe 2 or 3 works by Charles Ives, automatically assumed it was all the same, and came to the conclusion that it was bad music. Well, so much for expanding your horizons... if this is what the musical community is coming to, I might as well leave it all together.

Yes, I'm pretty pissed. I regret having to do this, considering all of the friends I've made here. However, many of them have left, for reasons similar to mine. I have no motivation to post here anymore.I will now procede to fill my password with random characters in case I'm ever tempted to post again.

No wonder some of the greatest members of this site left. This place as become a true offense to any serious musician's intelligence.

Arrivederci.

John,

You take things way too personally. This is a forum, for Christ's sake. Nobody is attacking you personally. So what if some kid rants and raves about his dislikes for contemporary or avant-garde music? This doesn't change anybody's mind....it's not like people read a critical post of Xenakis and suddenly change their minds about him. We're all tenacious enough to stick to our guns. This forum is just people's way of expressing their dislikes about music. Everyone has a different opinion about it. Nothing is emperically proven here. We aren't petitioning to put composers out of business.

As much respect as I have (or had) for you, you need to lighten up. Clearly you missed the point of the fora here and perhaps it's best you left anyway. It's people like YOU who alienate others for expressing opinions, however ridiculous you think they might be. I hate people who try to make others ashamed for expressing themselves. And I hate political-correctness.

I don't agree with half the posts on this particular topic...so what? Nobody is put on trial here. If I hate Bartok and Gershwin and Copland and Bernstein, who gives a flying f.uck? Grow UP dude.

~Max~

[pianistimo]

anything overly repetitive.  i happen to love schubert in small amounts, but was playing the op. 90? impromptu and about to puke because i was getting tired of repeating myself over an dover and wondered what he was thinking when he was repeating himself (rhythms and everything) for the 100th time.

cortot has 'edition du travail' or something like that - of a piece of mendehlssohn.  the same thing.  it repeats endlessly.

the sad thing is that when i try to compose - i end up repeating phrases and rhythms and harmonies too.  to be really unique and different in ur style is something ur born with.  to me, rimsky-korsakov is one of those really interesting composers.  i think he wrote a 20 minute piano concerto - but have to listen to it.  just saw it talked about somewhere on the internet.

oh.  i forgot.  i hate the busoni pc.  (ok throw stones).  i think it sounds like a melding of beethoven, chopin, liszt and all into a caricature piece.  u can actually hear each composer as it comes a long.  i thought - can't busoni just be busoni? - when i heard it.  but, i LOVE his arrangement abilities.

[bflatminor24]

Oh, and I wanted to clear this up. YES there is such a thing as GOOD and BAD art. To say otherwise undermines all standards of quality.

I could write a 300 page thesis on why this is true, but I'll shorten it to a paragraph. Standards in Western culture govern the quality of art, music, literature, etc. These standards explain why Beethoven was a better composer than Carl Czerny. Now "ignoramouses" like you, John, are going to argue that there is no "good" nor "bad" art? Oh, so the degrees of quality, or "shades of grey" as I call them, are now nonexistent? Good logic!

The reason Beethoven was greater than Czerny, and Picasso was greater than my little sister, and James Joyce was greater than a kid with down syndrome is because, comparitively speaking, there is GOOD and BAD art. Compared with Beethoven, the compositions of some random kid suck balls. This is no mystery, and I'd be surprised if anyone said otherwise.

Nobody is judging you, John. I heard your compositions on your website, and personally, I think they are wonderful. You have some great talent. Don't ever give up composing, because you are going to become a great composer if you keep at it. I don't know where you get your crazy ideas about art and expression and standards, but if you write good music I really could care less. Case closed.

~Max~

[jre58591]

we can all have our differences over which kinds of music we appreciate and dont appreciate, and which types of music we like and dislike, but i believe that no music deserves to be neglected. even though the general public may not like it, there is probably a group of people out there that absolutely loves it. this old phrase certainly applies here: "one man's trash is another man's treasure".

oh, one more thing. nils, please close this thread.

[ivoryplayer_amf]

You are the people who make it difficult for musicians who want to focus on neglected repertoire and spread the music of composers equally deserving of fame as the greats to live adequately. And you are the people who give not a moment's consideration for those who feel differently than you.

This was the worst, right here:

This... this hurts... Charles Ives was a genius. This individual probably heard maybe 2 or 3 works by Charles Ives, automatically assumed it was all the same, and came to the conclusion that it was bad music. Well, so much for expanding your horizons... if this is what the musical community is coming to, I might as well leave it all together.

Yes, I'm pretty pissed. I regret having to do this, considering all of the friends I've made here. However, many of them have left, for reasons similar to mine. I have no motivation to post here anymore.I will now procede to fill my password with random characters in case I'm ever tempted to post again.

No wonder some of the greatest members of this site left. This place as become a true offense to any serious musician's intelligence.

Arrivederci.

Wow...This makes me feel great to hold such POWER over your.  If you are so shallow that you hear someone else's opinion of something and cant get passed it, then you are a disgrace to music.  I would like to add...this is a forum.  Where topics and the such are DISCUSSED and DEBATED.  This site wouldnt be nearly what it is had it not been for the disagreements amongst peoples.  You are living in a fantasy world. 

As far as Charles Ives goes...I will agree with you, I havent heard everything he hsa composed.  But after hearing all that I did (WHICH WAS MORE THEN 2 OR 3 Songs) I don't care if I ever do.  And thats my opinion.  I will admit that there was some of it I heard that was very nice.  But it still doesnt change my mind that Most of his music should be disregarded.  I believe Charles Ives is part of the reason why we have such high regardes for the crap people right like RAP and Country!  Its all a bunch of trash thrown together for the amusement of people.  There isi no depth to it at all.  I am very much a traditionalist when it comes to music.  But I am not against the adventure seekers such as Liszt and Debussey.  So dont get me wrong.  I just think that we as a culture have such a horrid idea of what MUSIC is that it has reflected upon us as Shallow.

See what makes your state ment the most sad is the fact that you are HYPOCRITICAL! 

"And you are the people who give not a moment's consideration for those who feel differently than you."

Well what are you doing to my opinion?  You jumped on my opinion and took it so personally and attacked it without knowing what my reasons were.  That is what you are talking about is it not?  Had you had any respect about yourseelf you would have asked me what my reasons were for making such a brash statement and then give yours as to why you like him.  I would have responded and it would have been a great debate.  But instead you turned it into a personal vendetta against almost the ENTIRE Piano Street Forum.  Sad...truely.

All in all, I think it will be great that you are gone.  I know you probably will not read this, but I dont care.  I just have to stand up for myself.

[moi_not_toi]

I like Shostakovitch! Especially his second concerto, it is very funny.

AMEN!!!
I love that concerto. It's one of my favorites.

[jre58591]

---

[moi_not_toi]

---

Wow. 
That is SO profound!

[tompilk]

AMEN!!!
I love that concerto. It's one of my favorites.

same here... its amazing... always gives me goosebumps when the piano descends into those really low octaves... but it's such a fun piece too!
tom

[jre58591]

Wow. 
That is SO profound!

i deleted my post. thats why i typed "---" instead of a long profound paragraph.

[moi_not_toi]

i deleted my post. thats why i typed "---" instead of a long profound paragraph.

Why not just write DELETE instead of confusing people with your prose?

[jre58591]

Why not just write DELETE instead of confusing people with your prose?

because i didnt feel like it

[moi_not_toi]

because i didnt feel like it

You didn't feel like it?
Wow!
Mindbogglingly eloquent prose and the feeling of numbness,
I diagnose you as a revolutionary of danger to the crown.
Bang bang.
 

[chopinfan_22]

I think Chopin should be neglected after about an hour and a half of his music,
Ed

You deserve to be stabbed to death with a wooden spoon. 


Something to be neglected.... I'd have to agree with those that say Haydn. As well as... all Baroque composers. 

[phil13]

You deserve to be stabbed to death with a wooden spoon. 


Something to be neglected.... I'd have to agree with those that say Haydn. As well as... all Baroque composers. 

And you deserve to remove said spoon from Ed and stab YOURSELF with it for making that statement. 

Without Bach and Scarlatti none of the other music would even exist. All the other Western classical music is built upon them.

Phil

[mikey6]

Without Bach and Scarlatti none of the other music would even exist. All the other Western classical music is built upon them.

Phil

Agreed - as monsieur Stravinsky says  "a great composer steals" - there would be very few great works if anyone of these people everyone has mentioned were neglected.
Personally I think that this is a stupid thread, but i'm not gonna argue with anyone coz there opinion is their own not matter how ignorant it may be

[contrapunctus]

If all music was neglected then it would be impossible to have a thread on what music should be neglected or not.

[da jake]

Bach - Goldberg Variations - pointless finger 'diddling'...why waste your time when you've got Hanon? Art of Fugue - he died before completing the last fugue...LOL, lyk we wud have missed anything!!! 
Schubert -  Late Sonatas - repetative, boring. My grandma could compose better...WHILE DRINKING A CUP OF TEA.
Liszt - B Minor Sonata - 25 minutes of *yawn*, culminating in a mindless, virtuosic octave passage so typical of the airheaded composer, followed by another 3 minutes of *yawn*
Chopin - Preludes - can someone say "retard"? Lyk OMG...what was freddy C thinking when he came up with these little nuggets of crap...he musta been totally mashed.

[jre58591]

Chopin - Preludes - can someone say "retard"? Lyk OMG...what was freddy C thinking when he came up with these little nuggets of crap...he musta been totally mashed.

afterall, he was locked up in a monastery when he wrote them.

[mephisto]

Bach - Goldberg Variations - pointless finger 'diddling'...why waste your time when you've got Hanon? Art of Fugue - he died before completing the last fugue...LOL, lyk we wud have missed anything!!! 
Schubert -  Late Sonatas - repetative, boring. My grandma could compose better...WHILE DRINKING A CUP OF TEA.
Liszt - B Minor Sonata - 25 minutes of *yawn*, culminating in a mindless, virtuosic octave passage so typical of the airheaded composer, followed by another 3 minutes of *yawn*
Chopin - Preludes - can someone say "retard"? Lyk OMG...what was freddy C thinking when he came up with these little nuggets of crap...he musta been totally mashed.

leik OMG i haff to agree.!!!!!!!!!


have u heard the bumbelbee song? it is leik omg fast and just *** great. leik omg!!!!

[da jake]

Cziffra version of Flight of Bumblebee > Rach 2 

[mephisto]

Cziffra version of Flight of Bumblebee > Rach 2 

ure leik mai idol!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[sportsmonster]

Chopin - Preludes - can someone say "retard"? Lyk OMG...what was freddy C thinking when he came up with these little nuggets of crap...he musta been totally mashed.

Well, maybee a few of them. But i do absolutely not aggree that all of his preludes are that bad. By the way, his raindrop prelude, was one of my piano favorites of all times. And one of the most famuous too. 

[moi_not_toi]

You deserve to be stabbed to death with a wooden spoon. 


Something to be neglected.... I'd have to agree with those that say Haydn. As well as... all Baroque composers. 

HOW DARE YOU!!!
bach's inventions and sinfonias are enough to make him a god, much less destroy him. Why would you do that? Condemn the music that is of such simplicity that it's very hard to play.

[moi_not_toi]

To be a generalist, I should say that any fool who thinks that Chopin should be destroyed and wiped from the face of the earth is just that, a fool.

My piano teacher has good reason for it, as she says that she can't stand to hear neurotic music.
Yet, she is ok with philip glass.
Which is good because he's the best composer EVER.